This is a topic I'm somewhat obsessed over. I think it's a real problem these days, we are bombarded with things competing to make us into short-attention-spanned dopamine addicts and it screws up our lives badly. The Matthew Crawford books "The World Beyond Your Head: On Becoming an Individual in an Age of Distraction" and "Shopcraft as Soulcraft" are super interesting reads on this topic.
I'm biased, being a musician, but my experience and many of my colleagues is that musicians are often excellent coders, and I credit this to the fact that you need to master your attention to become a good musician. There is no other way than getting good at putting yourself alone in a room with no distractions and practicing in a focused manner. I remember when I hired a friend of mine (pro bass player) as a junior coder and it was so obvious watching him learn.
Personally my top tips for getting better at attention management would be:
- Take up an instrument or some other hobby involving regular, quiet, uninterrupted, solo deliberate practice. Do it daily. It becomes your rinse cycle.
- Adopt the pomorodoro or other similar technique of doing 20-30 minutes of completely focused, uninterrupted work at a time and then taking a real break for a few minutes. This is both how I work and practice.
- Read a lot, on paper.
- Run - IMHO way better than lifting for overall mental effects and mental focus
I'm not a musician but I noticed this problem with games. I have always been a dopamine addict with a short attention span. If I find something exciting it will be easy for me to get sucked into it.
I now have an issue(addiction) with competitive multiplayer games. I get really good at them very quickly, I even won tournaments before it became a career option. However, I realized these are causing massive anxiety in my life, hurt my ability to concentrate, hurt my ability to stick to a project and destroyed my sleeping schedule. One of the worst games was Rocket League. I uninstalled multiple times and like an addict told myself I will be responsible this time and reinstalled it.....to end up where I began...angry at 3 AM....at a dumb video game. Since then, I completely uninstalled it but Warzone has filled that void....I have to stop playing that too as it is too addicting for me.
Single player games are not an issue and are actually calming as it seems that it is the competitive aspect that keeps me engaged.
Reading books also helps me significantly and has improvement my attention span.
Have you tried channeling that gaming energy into physical sports? Golf? Tennis? Those things are at least good for your health, and you can't exactly play tennis all day long, you have to share the court, and you can't mess up your sleep.
Yes, until I started having widespread tendon issues due to flouroquinolone antibiotics. Sports are out of the picture for me most likely forever. Plus it is not like playing sports hard is healthy either. I tore abdomen muscles, have torn labrum in my hip from soccer, etc.
Ever tried golf? It’s incredibly addicting and a great sport to get into for the long haul. Basically nothing about golf can hurt your body. If you’re torquing your back you’re doing it wrong!
I love video games and play regularly (but casually). I've seen quite a few programmers who suck at their jobs basically because they are up late at night playing video games.
I've been addicted to video games in the past, but these days I only play console games and ones that are suited to casual play. And I only have Mac computers so I can't play most games anyways even if I was tempted. I also save money on expensive gaming PC rigs
Agreed! I got back into piano at the beginning of quarantine and it's been really interesting for learning how I learn. As you said, to make any level of progress on new pieces I need to break it up in to short 20 min exercises interleaved with breaks. My ability to motivate myself and to retain anything is also directly correlated with the amount of sleep I get. Going to check out your book recommendations as well!
I started leaning the piano 4 months ago with a remote tutor and it’s been such a pleasant experience. I absolutely love learning new systems, and music is a fascinating system with such interesting tangible results, it reminds me of my first experiences with web dev where I got to see this thing I myself created come to life. I agree that music practice is such a transferable skill. There are no shortcuts, but there are tricks of the trade that make absolutely no sense at first but you keep and it and pieces start clicking. I’m glad I started a side project around the same time, because I find I am applying similar discipline to both and it’s a really fun cycle to be living through at the moment :)
You bring up an interesting point that I (and Crawford) think is massively important nowadays. When you learn a real skill, like really learn it from a master, part of what you are doing is learning to trust an authority outside of yourself. Good technique in so many disciplines feels weird, awkward, wrong, and un-fun when you first try it. But the discipline decides on right, not us. The instrument, or the golf ball, or whatever real physical thing that you have to work with determines correct technique, and we have to learn how to make that feel natural through years of effort. I believe this is a huge part of the benefit of deliberate practise: you learn that "oh this feels good" or "this seems to work for me, and what I think matters most" is not good enough. And in this day and age of so much "me me how I feel me" and instant gratification, learning that humility is a really valuable skill. Music will teach you that the path to effortless mastery is full of twists and turns, and is often uncomfortable. We only get there when we decide it's ok to be uncomfortable.
What is your opinion on reading on the Kindle? Is it as effective as reading a physical book? I own tons of physical books but am completely out of shelf space for new books.
Yeah I guess really I mean something that doesn't have the ability to check email, bleep at you for an incoming text and all that other crap. I personally get screen fatigue so I use paper. But to me the important part is that it's "just a book", not a book that will try to make you change what you're doing every 10 minutes!
I'll argue that using an Android-based tablet with the latest "digital well-being" features are superior to any e-reader. A few things on this worth noting:
- Making notes / taking highlights. The touchscreen navigation is far easier and fluid in making selections. Furthermore, you get an automatic sync to google drive feature
- Indexing: The speed for searching the entire text contents for keywords is much faster and again, a more seamless, non-janky experience
- Lookups: Built in dictionaries are much faster and easier to navigate / dismiss
- Readability: OLED with inverted text and red-light dimming makes for an excellent reading experience, lights on/off
- Distractions: You can limit these with bedtime and focus modes
there are a few eink tablets that run android as well. onyx boox is one brand of the top of my head that uses android 10 so it's still fairly up to date. i never considered an oled even though!
I mainly just want something I can install syncthing on so i can add books and articles from my laptop and have them show up on the device.
I love my Kindle. I'm out of space for physical books and just love the reading experience on the Kindle. I think it works because it's a distraction-free device. It does one thing and it does it well.
I have the Kindle app on my iPad, and it is the best thing ever. I don't install social media apps on it or anything like that. I don't find it bad at all.
I think you are mixing up causation and correlation here.
Learning an instrument isn't going to make you a better programmer; applying pedological techniques you used to learn an instrument to learning programming might.
Ah but did I say it would? Nope. I said musicians are often great programmers, and I said practicing music will help you master your attention. Whether you apply that to other areas is up to you. I would argue that learning to master your attention gives you the opportunity and a helpful foundation to improve better in all kinds of things, but believe me, I would never make the claim that there is instant and direct transference.
Bell[1] ran a study to find out what the most productive engineers did differently from their peers. The answer was communication. They did a lot more of it. They bounced ideas with co-workers, they validated solutions with customers, they did their own research, and so on.
While I have no doubt attention is important (much like a luck stat, it affects everything you do), it might be a bit premature to declare it the most valuable asset without additional evidence than personal anecdote!
[1]: Or some other phone giant -- I keep misplacing this citation so if someone knows what I'm talking about please hand me a reference.
I’d be wary of applying causation based on that correlation. When you are the expert, people come to you for things. You communicate more, but that’s not what made you the expert.
I’d posit that attention and communication are both secondary to core competency in software development. My guess is that information synthesis and lateral thinking are the core competencies of great engineers. I don’t think you can get the information you need or as much lateral thinking without attention and communication, but that doesn’t mean they are the core competency.
I'm not sure causality goes that way. You communicate more if you are better at the technical parts. If you can solve most of the problem in your head and in that way predict most of the things you need before you start working you just go and ask for that information from everyone. However if you are worse on the technical side you will need more time working on the task before you have anything to talk about, and you might even miss some of the issues completely.
Forcing the second kind to communicate more wont make him better, it will make him worse. He will need to build up his technical skills before communicating more actually helps.
In my current project, we are basically coerced into pairing nearly 100% of the time and it takes active resistance not to pair on every single little thing like "remove this item from the list in the docs". Yep, it's that extreme.
In my personal experience and opinion, pairing makes sense for knowledge distribution and figuring out something hard together. Or onboarding, getting a project newbie up to speed for a couple of weeks.
But when overdone, it simply slows you and binds expensive developer resources that otherwise could be working on a parallel thing. Especially in the remote environment during Corona times. I basically HAVE TO have an always-on Zoom/Teams call with mic and camera.
Half the team seems to really love that mode of working, but I for one am rather puzzled how you are supposed to focus and really think things through this way. Always having to articulate every single little thing and then switching control just throws your flow completely out of the water.
And one other bad side-effect I observed is that reviews are now taken much less seriously. No need to do reviews, since a PAIR already worked on it, right?
Not in my opinion - I think that reviews and subsequent communication are a much better way of knowledge sharing anyway and pairing is often just a management oversight excuse rather than a helpful technique/mechanism. Some devs also seem rather desperate to have others help them do simple tasks. It feels like those people in school who tag onto your project because they know that you and that other girl will do all of the work.
If you're in the team for 3 years I would expect you to be able to read some code and understand what it does. Or read docs of some framework. But nope, some people just NEED others to tell them how it is done and by next week they already forgot it anyways. And when I want to read some docs? Enjoy those eyes and intermittent verbal injections from that Zoom call.
Uff - I am rather frustrated, but as mentioned early in my comment, I do see some real benefits of pairing. Just not 100% of the time all the time with always-on Zoom cams.
Couldn't agree more. I worked 2 years 100% pairing, it's just too much. I also have some mildly introspective personality and the extra overhead of communicating every single word typed not only interferes with my deep thinking, but would make me feel exhausted by 4pm, instead of my normal capacity to work long hours for quite a few days before starting to realise I needed to rest.
> Some devs also seem rather desperate to have others help them do simple tasks. It feels like those people in school who tag onto your project because they know that you and that other girl will do all of the work.
Ahh, the non-programming programmer strikes again! [0]
The non-programming programmer thing is kind of astonishing.
Are there actual CS programs somewhere where people can graduate without actually writing any code? Maybe theory, HCI, or hardware tracks? Those could still be great employees.
And don't many candidates have code on github where you can just look at the commit log and ask them about the code they wrote?
Moreover, tech companies seem to be infatuated with awful technical interviews that not only make you write code but often require you to solve some difficult algorithm puzzle at the same time.
> Are there actual CS programs somewhere where people can graduate without actually writing any code? Maybe theory, HCI, or hardware tracks? Those could still be great employees.
There are absolutely. I however, disagree with the idea they could lead to great hires.
I've also seen "masters" in CS that were really a lighter version of the undergrad coursework [0]. Of course, these were separate from the PhD track masters.
> And don't many candidates have code on github where you can just look at the commit log and ask them about the code they wrote?
Yeah. But the type of student that has an active github, even if it's full of assignments, isn't the type that will interview often. So you better make him/her an offer fast. There's a complete subset of great hires completely invisible to anyone because FAANG hired them first.
> Moreover, tech companies seem to be infatuated with awful technical interviews that not only make you write code but often require you to solve some difficult algorithm puzzle at the same time.
There's a reason they are doing it, to filter against these folks. Asking for algorithms also weeds out bootcamps where, more often than not, students are taught only one "trick" and stack and generally lack the fundamentals to be able to switch to an other stack or problem area.
For real. I’m a contractor that bills by the hour which means I have a pretty good understanding of cost of features.
At a previous client I got a ticket that would mean rewriting a large part of the application, to the tune of €10k. Something didn’t sit right with me and I started sleuthing around the org chart, asking relevant people questions. The €10k ticket became €0.5k in research and two-line css fix + different copy in the UI
I am a contractor, I get paid for hours spent. If I got paid by money saved I’d be a consultant. Small but important difference and wildly different business models.
The difference is clearly explained but then the contractor (@brtkdotse) does the work of the consultant but as a contractor and reduced their own billable hours.
Business renewed the contract because they're realizing they're getting both roles for the pay of one.
I like to ask my colleagues often, brainstorm a bit with them etc when solving problems. Usually after pondering the issue a bit I get an idea of what a good solution would be, but often I can get valuable input from my coworkers.
Maybe I've missed an important corner case. Maybe my coworker has worked on something similar or relevant and has some code or technique I could use. Maybe I've been overthinking it and a stop-gap is better until we can make a more informed decision.
Sometimes just a tweak can make a significant difference, other times I end up going a completely different route.
I'll also email or phone customers if I sense a X/Y problem, or if I don't fully get their feature request or bug description. I'm not a domain expert and it's good to have context.
All in all, indeed it's usually a good idea to not jump straight into it. Mull it over, talk a bit with someone.
Putting in time to avoid unnecessary work caused by miscommunication or lack of communication could be seen as an attention focused workflow: It is about making sure attention and work is focused on what is actually the problem, and not everything else surrounding it.
This study, and some of the comments here that state the opposite are too generic. Whether communication or focus is more important depends on the nature of the product that someone most work on. Some projects require vast amount of communication, like working in a startup that's solving hard technical issues on greenfield R&D territory. But if you're working in a mobile dev shop and doing the Nth same iOS app for example, then probably you won't need to bounce ideas with co-workers but know exactly what you'll need to do, and it requires focus above all to finish it as soon as possible.
Of course most of the jobs are somewhere in between these extremes, but even in those cases the tasks usually alternate between the two.
The Bell study sounds similar to research John Seeley Brown references from Xerox, in The Social Life of Information (2000), particularly chapters 4 & 5 discussing research of Julian Orr.
Xerox repair techs' secret weapon was the morning pre-dispatch coffee session, where war stories were swapped.
A similar later reference noted information transfer (or lack) between techs and phone operators --- physically separating the two cut down on the operators' knowledge and effectiveness.
The TL;DR is, Bell Labs was designed to balance casual, collaborative conversations with solo deep work.
1. Instead of having a computer science building, a physics building, etc, they put every discipline in the same building. They had shared areas for eating & discussing which pushed people to run into each other, and have highly cross-domain conversations.
2. Inside the building, the offices were a hub and spoke model. Individual researchers had quiet individual offices for deep thinking they could retreat to AFTER they've bumped into someone at lunch from a different field.
In most open offices today, we've forgotten about the deep work spaces and ONLY kept the collaboration spaces.
Both important. It’s just that the world today is gear toward communication to the point of overloaded your every sensory available. What left of attention are all stole by social media and their ilk. People just can’t focus anymore, and when one cannot focus, one cannot attain higher skill one wish for. That’s the point, in my opinion, of course.
It strikes me from working in tech that in practice, perceived productivity is often simply "communicated productivity" rather than actual productivity. I'm curious to see what the proxies for productivity would be used in studies such as this.
I’ve also realized lately that just being able to maintain my focus (and quiet the anxiety that causes context switching) would be a bigger productivity boost than any methodology, tool, or programming language. It’s worth more than 10 years more experience. I’ve been diagnosed with ADHD in the past, so it’s always been a struggle. What’s the secret? Meditation? Drugs?
ADHD/Bipolar here, I really struggle with this, and using external tools is not an option, for me is just more multitasking risk!,something that works for me, aside from the drugs and good sleep, is a top down approach when programming, I just implement functions in terms of undefined magic functions/objects (all red in the IDE!) and start backwards implementing them, I used this "technique" when I was a Java developer using IntelliJ (CTRL+SPACE over undefined item -> implement). that kept my attention in easy chunks and well defined tasks. Type driven development is another "technique" I discovered, and it worked very well for me lately. Using the compiler as your guide and friend.
Please email me! I need people to test a new system I developed and have been using myself for being productive in a world with many distractions.
I haven't been formally diagnosed with ADHD but I do have certain symptoms that align with it. I'd be curious to get your personal experience and feedback with what I've been working on
you are not alone. sleep, daily exercise (like running at least 1 hour) helps quite a bit after few weeks but it's difficult to maintain that pace for me. planning and organizing in advance is also tremendous helpful but even more difficult to maintain. As for meditation it never really worked for me unless I'm already calmed down - so it's only helping after exercise. At the moment green tea seems to have some effects but I gave up on thinking I can fix this myself (trying on/off without much lasting success for more than 10 years..) and now looking into getting a diagnosis and maybe try meds if the doctors they that it might help.
I think the "willpower" argument vs ADHD falls kind of flat, although I have no studies to back that up. But it smacks of the same sort of "victim shaming" that dieters face when told, "just do it" or equivalent.
I would argue that attention is the most valuable asset for productivity in every case, period. I guess I sort of thought this went without saying.
The details in this article are great, I'm a productivity geek despite never really getting to a point where I "always feel productive" - and each point here is definitely relevant specifically for focus as a software developer. I'm a manager so minimizing meetings is out of the question to some degree, but my "OS minimalism" is much more extreme so maybe that balances out.
Ultimately this article is great from the POV of a software dev, but the point of it applies to everything in life.
Much truth to these tactics for maximizing attention, esp exercise. Not mentioned is the #1 attention killer in my experience: working on boring tasks.
I’ve found productivity maximized when I make time to work on an interesting project every day or two. Making progress on enjoyable tasks gets me started with the momentum to tackle the nasty, boring ones.
My conclusion is ironic in that I’m the CEO of Amplenote, a note taking/todo list app built to ensure “urgent” or “important” tasks get scheduled to the calendar. I consider myself more disciplined than the average bear, but I’ll be damned if I can focus my attention for more than half the day on tedious tasks.
Meanwhile, when running down a feature or bug fix that will directly help me as a user, I can often focus for 12 hours of programming. I think dogfooding is central to the best products because it begets genuine interest, thus attention, from its developer/users.
Ex-professional weightlifter of about 10 years here, checking in to add a note.
The whole section on physical health and deadlifting is borderline redundant.
Don't get me wrong... It's an alpha exercise and you feel amazing doing it. But the only physical reward you get from deadlifting is the ability to deadlift more and alongside it have a severely higher risk of injury.
If you want a correlation between sitting at a desk and building strength to offset that, look at squats in all it's forms, and hamstring and quad dominant exercises. Your lower body is in much more trouble than your lower back from sitting at a computer.
Hipflexer stretches with resistance bands will also do you wonders.
Trust me folks. Doing deadlifts because you see the gym-bros on youtube doing them is a big mistake. Take a book out of Eddie Hall's playbook who says the exact same thing... And he's literally the strongest man in the world.
Deadlifts are great for people who have taken the time to study and implement proper form as well as work their way up from lower weights over time.
However, I’m not sure how we arrived at a situation where people are recommending deadlifts as the go-to exercise for people who want to maintain fitness. Experienced weightlifters and coaches generally won’t recommend that beginners focus on deadlifts, like you said.
We shouldn’t be making fitness sound so complicated or setting the bar so high. No one needs to be doing deadlifts to get into shape. Frankly, most sedentary people need to focus on small, achievable, and enjoyable fitness goals to start. Simply going for a 15-minute walk every day is a step in the right direction for beginners. Going to the gym is great if that’s your thing, but doing a handful of push-ups and stretches at home is also great for someone looking to get started.
The Internet has been great for disseminating fitness information and generating enthusiasm for exercise, but this trend of recommending advanced exercises and over the top workout programs like CrossFit to beginners has probably done just as much harm as good. We shouldn’t be making fitness sound like some
complicated, difficult goal.
> Simply going for a 15-minute walk every day is a step in the right direction for beginners.
It is that, but that’s all. I’ve realised lately that it really isn’t enough.
Until earlier this year I was cycling about 15kms a day in the natural course of going to work, and climbing perhaps 30 flights of stairs a day in the natural course of living on the 3rd floor. Then I moved house, and I no longer do either.
I do, however, still walk a decent amount on the flat. My phone says I average about 7km/day (near enough 10,000 steps).
It’s not enough. It’s taken me a while to realise it, but I’m pretty sure that my current lower back issues are basically a result of stopping the cycling & stairs. I can’t prove it of course, but it makes a lot of sense. All of my glute/hamstring strength has just gone.
Starting tomorrow I’m forcing myself to ride about 15kms a day (~5 days/week), with some sort of an incline in there. I’m lucky that I enjoy this; I was luckier when it just happened as part of my day without me thinking about it. Making myself do it is going to be a lot harder. I need to figure out a way to “science the shit out of it” so I can at least gain motivation from the fact that it works (assuming that it does).
According to my physiotherapist, cycling (really any movement) is great but does not necessarily help with back problems and in some cases even make it worse (probably depends on bike, saddle, position etc.).
What's important is consistently moving. That means getting up from the desk every hour for a 5 minute walk or some stretching. Switching between standing and sitting at a desk is a first step in the right direction but really we need to be moving.
This gets almost completely ignored at most desk jobs but now that many people can work from home, the opportunity to get into the right routine presents itself.
> What's important is consistently moving. That means getting up from the desk every hour for a 5 minute walk or some stretching. Switching between standing and sitting at a desk is a first step in the right direction but really we need to be moving.
Yeah, that's it. At least when it comes to overall health (I'm not sure about back issues).
I did a little bit of research on this theme myself and it seems that the key is to interrupt periods of prolonged sitting with any movement (even walking helps) for any period of time (even 1 minute helps). The more intensive/longer the better, obviously.
See also notes from my web-research at http://mnicky.wikidot.com/healthy-programmer (it's based on the book that got me started on this topic, but e.g. in Section 3 there's some additional reading about benefits of making pauses when sitting for a longer time and similar research).
Btw, using standing desk for prolonged time can be harmful as well, the truth is even more than sitting :) So yes, combine standing and sitting, but stand only for a shorter time (after 30min it starts to have negative effects).
> According to my physiotherapist, cycling (really any movement) is great but does not necessarily help with back problems and in some cases even make it worse (probably depends on bike, saddle, position etc.).
If you stay in one position on the bike, and bike for a long time (hour+), it's probably worse for your back. But if you switch positions, you can find some nice stretches sometimes. Depending on the terrain, you might have to specifically remember to stretch your back while you're on the bike.
As a hobby road cyclist I can recommend doing some core / stability training in addition to cycling. And of course, make sure that your bike and its geometry (saddle and stem height, stack and reach) generally fit you. Biking should not hurt - unless it's due to the high effort you put in.
Some form of High intensity training is needed to trigger body response that is associated with health, like hormone release/sensitivity and muscle growth.
Deadlifts is an excellent exercise if done correctly. But there is of course a plethora of exercies you can do, you have to find what works best for you. A 15 minute walk is not enough, humans are very good at walking, you will burn more energy doing 1 deadlift then walking for 15 minutes.
I recommend getting a power meter and doing some structured training with that. You get a training plan to follow and numbers (FTP, W/kg) that you can see improving.
I do calisthenics, aka body-weight training. Not the crazy crossfit incarnation, instead classic ladders, intervals of pushups, pullups and some variations.
Additionally a plank before bedtime and some hiking (~2000km/year) + deep squats to counteract sitting.
Most important is to find something you can make into a lasting habit (for years). Otherwise you will end like most people with dieting do.
Also, it might be harmful to make people believe they can completely offset working 8 hours a day at a desk without breaks by spending 1 hour at the gym. By medical standards you still have a sedentary lifestyle.
"By medical standards you still have a sedentary lifestyle"
Is it? Is 1h of strenuous exercise at a time and sittimg the rest of the day not better than getting up every hour and doing some simple stretches or just walking around? Not trying to be argumentative, I honestly don't know.
I am playing Badminton/Squash two times a week, not sure if that's enough to offset sitting all day, but it sure is fun and there is no lack of motivation to do it every week. Unfortunately, the place is currently closed due to the Corona virus.
Not sure what you think about this, but I feel like there are people who can deadlift, and people who can squat.
I like low-bar squats, but I was never very strong in them(~1/2 my DL weight), they hurt my knees, and I've tweaked my back several times doing them.
I freaking love DLs. They feel amazing, they actually seem to fix my back pain, and I'm just downright strong in them(compared to my maxes in nearly every other exercise).
Now, I also have to say that as a 45 year old who has now gone through shoulder surgery, and gave up anything beyond farmers carries( * ) when it comes to weightlifting, that most people should just stick to cardio. I feel somuchbetter now that I'm doing crazy hikes again and not carrying around a bunch of useless muscle. I'm better in bed, I feel less pain, I have more energy, and I'm not spending all day worrying about protein targets. To each their own. Weightlifting was fun and being big is kinda satisfying, but it's not something I will recommend anymore.
* - I'll probably get a bar and some plates to resume lower weight(275 or less), higher rep DLs once I move out of the bay area and have the space.
What it seems like is most people enthusiastic about weight lifting spend far too much time near their physical limits trying to increase that maximum target and end up with a growing list of increasingly permanent injuries. If your goal for exercising is to be good at exercising, I just don’t get it, and I have experienced far too many people who treated exercising as their lifestyle and appeared by any reasonable metric to be addicted.
I'm the same as you. I am embarrassingly weak at squats. I have done 140kg for reps (I'm 78kg), but it just doesn't feel right. Eventually the mental load just became too much so I stopped squatting.
But deadlifts I seem naturally good at. I did a 200kg deadlift (2.5x bodyweight) which I'm proud of, but honestly I think I could go much heavier if I really wanted to train it. But I decided to leave it there as the risk of injury becomes too high after that. Nowadays I don't train it regularly but find I can still deadlift 160kg (2x bodyweight) at any time. It really helps my back and my shoulders.
FWIW like you I was always much better at deadlifting than squatting (my deadlift was always about 50% more than my squat). Since the pandemic, I've been using kettlebells and really been enjoying them, specifically kettlebell front squats. The weight being offset forward allows you to stay very upright and it destroys your upper back and core. Feels so good, the way I imagine squatting feels for people who are naturally good at squatting. I feel like I'm able to power through the sticking point at the bottom instead of wondering if I'll be crushed under the weight.
> Well, kind of. Squats have different limitations than DLs. But even a kid can squat (and their knees do go past their toes so cut the BS about that)
What BS? This strikes me as an incredibly naive take on squats and people's ability to do them. Likewise, a kid is a bizarre benchmark, because they haven't yet had decades to abuse their body. Duck feet/knocking knees/knee valgus or even shin splits will make squats incredibly uncomfortable if not implausible to do with correct form. Add to that years of being a software dev. I imagine there are many other conditions that would start you at -2 or more in terms of progression.
I'm not talking about a kid squatting with weight. I'm talking about simply squatting on the floor. It's a natural movement and one that's learned early.
But in most cases injury has nothing to do with the movement. It’s load or workload.
I’ve been lifting for 2 years and have not experienced any long lasting pain and have not been injured. My progress is slow, 330/225/360 S/BP/DL at 220 BW (gained 30lbs) but I’m not in a hurry. I’ve been doing round back deadlifts for a while now (my spine has completely lost it’s natural lordosis due to a lifetime of sitting, my lower back has a slight rounding that I just can’t force into extension, my discs are completely fine and I have gained 2 inches to my height since I’ve started training) and have never experienced any back pain.
People start obsessing over their progress and start doing too much, either load or sets.
My well-being improved by a lot. Sitting for 8+ hours a day stopped being an issue and all the weird pains I had before disappeared.
Righto I’d say the problem I see is with recommending an exercise with just a link to a video and saying “can be learned in minutes” without the recommendation “Make sure to start light and focus on great form”. For most people I wouldn’t recommend taking on deadlifts or squats without a trainer or a buddy to spot proper form.
This advice comes from myself who in the past dove into numerous exercises after watching 1 video, had crappy form, and had pain as a result. Slow and steady with proper form is definitely the name of the game.
Plus the mental clarity is great and the general calmness.
The hardest part (for me) is not to get too much into the culture. In the end as a middle aged man, I’m not going pro, I’m looking to feel great though.
>Take a book out of Eddie Hall's playbook who says the exact same thing... And he's literally the strongest man in the world.
Robert Oberst, another WSM competitor also says the same thing and talks about it on the Joe Rogan podcast (#1321 I believe). To quote:
"I went from football to strongman, and in football we never did deadlifts. It was all hang cleans and power cleans, which by the way, quick little tip: if you’re deadlifting to be a better deadlifter fine. If you’re not, (you’re) doing that for deadlift’s sake, don’t fucking do it. The risk to reward ratio is a joke."
"A lot of people are not going to like that I’m saying that. (…) If you go to any NFL gym, any college football gym, any athletics where people are actually getting paid and it matters what they’re doing, they’re not deadlifting. They’re hang cleaning and power cleaning."
I think the takeaway here might be somewhat obfuscated, so I'd like to clarify. Hang cleans and power cleans essentially have a deadlift as their first submovement, the difference here is in the weight. You can probably deadlift a few times more than you can clean, and that's where the real issue lies — it's a lot easier to get an injury with bigger weights, regardless of the exercise.
For any pro athlete, consistent work is far more important than any one workout, hence avoiding injury is instrumental in success. The same holds true for hobbyists as well, of course, but the topic doesn't get as much focus there since many are self-taught. For consistent progress, work volume is much more crucial than work weight [0], hence doing an exercise with high risk and low volume isn't the best option.
While I kind of see where you're coming from, the statement is a bit of an oxymoron. Doing A with bad form has a higher risk than doing B with average form, for pretty much any A or B you pick. I think deadlifts are a good beginner exercise, and can also serve you well in intermediate lifting for some time, but once the plates rack up, it's better to put your attention elsewhere. I agree that having complex movements for absolute beginners is not a good entry point, but I don't think anyone here is advocating for that.
The technical proficiency needed to make powercleans an effective exercise for strength and power development is ridiculous compared deadlifts, which a good coach can teach you to perform safely in a few hours.
Does it mean he's saying hang and power cleans are safer than deadlift? I've only ever deadlifted, but cleans always looked way more injury prone to me. Am I missing something? (I do deadlift not for the sake of deadlift)
IME it's very easy to get into a constant state of CNS burnout with deadlifts. It takes a lot of discipline to go into a gym and only deadlift upto like 70-75% of your max. The deadlift frankly is easy and fun, it's really only a challenging lift in the high 90s of intensity. So people who deadlift, probably do it too often and at too high intensities such that it takes away from other stuff.
I think one caveat he doesn't mention, is all the pro athletes choosing cleans over deadlifts also have coaches there who are making sure their form is good.
In that case then yeh, it's a more technical lift and provided you're getting good coaching you're less likely to burn out your CNS on a clean than on a deadlift.
I don't see why so much fear about DLs (and yes I've hurt myself once or twice - which is less than on other sports btw). And yes if you do it properly it's ok.
But I guess the issue is people trying to overexert and maybe not getting all the cues, and/or it's easy to "slip" and end up doing it with bad form and it requires good coordination (but maybe less than power cleans)
Low intensity, warmup, of course go for a PR once in a while because that's fun and maybe doing it more than 2x week is going to take a toll on your CMS
I think the point he's trying to make is even if you know how to deadlift correctly the amount weight involved carries a high risk of injury. Cleans on the other hand involve lower weight and so has a lower risk of injury (assuming you know how to perform it correctly, of course).
One of the reasons why I don't do weightlifting stuff is that they seem a lot riskier. Same doubt here. These people who recommend weightlifting stuff (I don't mean in any way to discredit Robert Oberst, Eddie Hall... I follow and watch Strongman scene and really enjoy these guys), are they recommending it as "you should get a weightlifting coach and learn the movements properly" or "go to the gym and do power cleans as you go"? I find powerlifting a lot easier to learn alone, youtube only. And less riskier with the progress of increasing load + nonstop learning.
You need a coach or a lot of discipline to learn how to safely clean. Deadlifts are still great. The previous comment about football teams takes other things into consideration. Like it's difficult to have great form for so many players and cleans are a power exercise. You'll see a lot of football players do trap-bar deadlifts because it's safer.
Deadlifts are great for running. They give you more explosive power and increase speed because you get a bit more distance with each stride. Over a marathon (40,000 steps) that extra half-inch per stride adds up.
They’re also great for boxing. Help you generate more power on your punche. Uppercuts especially.
The trick is to not lift for hypertrophy. Lift for power and speed and neuromuscular activation. If you’re sore the next day you went too hard.
I can understand where you are coming from- though I think you might be blurring the lines between conventional deadlifts and other forms which benefit much more than just your back. (rack pulls, sumo deadlifts, trap bar deadlifts)
Deadlifts as the exercise it purely is, is less likely to give you the strength for running you desire. Having been in the atmosphere of "Train as efficiently as possible", I can attest that deadlifts are far from a great choice for physical health. My 75 y/o coach would tear me a new one if he saw me wasting time training them.
I'm not surprised deadlifts have helped you gain a strong back, but having also trained for a marathon I can tell you there is a plethora of other benefits you will miss out on by training your lower back instead of your legs and overall cardio fitness.
Anecdotally, I have noticed that leg blasters (shitter squats in local slang) end up detrimentally affecting my balance. I never had this issue with deadlifts.
I once was a gym bro who believed that deadlift and barbell squats where like the only thing you should do in the gym.
Until i blew my back really hard, doing squats following the 5x5 strong lift program. I really regret that now because it ruined so much for me. I now have constant pain in my back and i cannot do the sports that i truly love doing (boxing and bjj) like i used to.
Now i have a much different view on the gym. I use machines to a greater extent and i focus more on training for health than lifting heavy barbells.
For anyone questioning the safety of deadlifting based on this post, I encourage you to continue deadlifting - it's a great exercise that contributes to overall health and fitness, but first I want to expand on the above implicit disclaimer in the parent:
>Ex-professional weightlifter of about 10 years here
This implies a number of things:
1. First and foremost, it implies the use of much higher weights and workloads than what a typical non-professional stronglifts or starting strength type lifter might be using. This is related to the next two factors: potential use of performance-enhancing drugs, and potential obesity. Without these two factors, you'd plateau at lower and safer weight, close to your natural limit.
2. It implies the potential use of performance-enhancing drugs. Performance-enhancer use is incredibly pervasive in today's professional athletic world. Their use will push you beyond your limits; the limits of strength, and the limits of what's safe and healthy.
3. It implies potential obesity: competitive lifting requires massive amounts of food in order to fully recover and continue lifting as much as possible. Teamed with performance enhancers, one might achieve a strength level, body weight, and muscle mass far higher than one's bones and ligaments evolved to handle.
So if you're using good form, not eating inordinate amounts of food, and not using performance-enhancers, you can safely and healthily deadlift. You will move less weight than the professional, but it will be weight that your body is more naturally capable of handling.
We've had deadlift scaremongering for decades with yet any solid proof to be produced against its use in general, non-PED using populations, as part of a general strength training and conditioning program.
I don't care what Hall or Oberall say - most of us are lightyears away from their numbers or from those kinds of environments. (I'm also asking for proof on Hall's negative stance on deadlifts, since I can't find anything about it)
To add, the best strength training programs I've tried use submaximal loading most if not all of the time, adding a further layer of safety: not only are you not pushing yourself past your limits with PEDs or insane training tonnage, you're purposefully staying below your natural limits.
Keep deadlifting with exquisite form and reap the benefits!
The "if you're using good form" is a pretty huge caveat. It's only natural for form to suffer as you try and push yourself harder, but there are not many exercises where bad form so consistently leads to such debilitating injuries such as slipped disks.
This is anecdotal evidence I know, but I can think of two friends that have gotten slipped disks from doing deadlifts in 2019, and this was during personal training sessions from "ex-Olympians" that cost $100s an hour.
>Trust me folks. Doing deadlifts because you see the gym-bros on youtube doing them is a big mistake.
A lof of gymnast / psycisian's advice I've read says the opposite. That deadlifts are a great exercize, and should not be restrained to the weight lifting / body builder types.
The way I see it. Do it a bit. Please don't overdo it. Please only do it if you do it well.
Maybe increase weight slowly if you're really starting quite low but at some and at a perhaps rather early point compared to what you see powerlifters pulling...Stop increasing the weight.
It's tempting to keep going. To chase progress but....it's probably bad in that case.
You can train your muscles. You can't train your spine and you especially can't train your spine out of an injury.
You should try to be helping your back with that exercise. I don't think you need it to try and looked ripped. There's other lower risk exercises for that.
The other comment says it best. Deadlifts are a core concept are great- you can implement them into your rack pulls, trap bar deadlifts, and romanian deadlifts and reap enormous benefits that they offer.
However... Deadlifts as the exercise it is? Almost not worth doing in the scheme of things. Want to win a deadlift competition? Sure. But for any other reason I could strongly argue that there are many, many better suited exercises for your health than a Deadlift.
Deadlifts seem to be an extremely functional form of lifting movement to practice. I can see bicep curls being mocked for not providing any general benefits, or static planks not doing much except make you better at performing the static plank.
But the techniques you learn from and the muscles you strengthen doing deadlifts are the same you use when you lift a heavy box off the floor.
I do calisthenics with a goal of being healthier. It seems to be great for upper body but for lower body not so much. So I have been thinking about adding deadlifts (got from recommendations by seemingly smart people on /r/bodyweightfitness). These wouldn't be bodybuilder deadlifts, they would be didn't skip leg day deadlifts. What would you recommend as a good lower body exercise, in the not looking to get big category?
Full body exercises like that are great, but in my limited experience, there's a tendency to always want to push the limits, always add more weights, etc.
it's a somewhat similar story across some of my friends who i deadlift with.
a number of of powerlifters we follow on instagram are on regular cbd oil therapy. i'm on lyrica and a truckload of painkillers every day. we still go out and do it. grit your teeth and grind through the pain.
i don't do it as much anymore after i realized that i'm killing my future quality of life for absolutely no financial gain - i'm not selling instagram views, not selling training or equipment and things. but for a long time it was all vanity. none of it is necessary for sitting properly at a desk.
I'm wondering if the stories we hear from more experienced weightlifters like you are because you were pulling, say, 400+ lbs. I don't know, but I think the danger probably goes up exponentially as you cross a threshold of average physical tissue capacity. My all time DL max was 405, and I generally pulled around 365. DLs only made my crappy back feel better.
Not the above comment but I find the story a bit suspect. I have many friends in the competitive powerlifting world and while many have nagging injuries, almost none of them came directly from deadlifting. That's my experience as well, I have pulled over 600 at 181 and never came close to an injury from the lift but I can't say the same for squat (knee, hip, and shoulder pain) and bench (wrist and lower back pain).
my physio basically said some people are born with better biomechanics and better structural strength for competitive lifting than others and i'm just not one of them.
if i can get back to at least a 400 lb DL i'd be pretty happy.
Yes I suspect the same. I personally find deadlifts by far the most effective and easy exercise for preventing back pain and generally feeling healthier and more comfortable with a sitting desk job that I have found. However I have experimented a lot and I can get that benefit from lifting just 1x body weight, which is trivially easy for me and doesn't seem to pose any real risk of injury.
To everyone interested in the lifting and health aspects, I recommend: https://www.barbellmedicine.com/ the are doctors and lifters and they clean a lot of BS of lifting. And they also have a lot of information for example on pain and lifting...
Having gone from considering weightlifting a simple set of exercises to now understanding the complexity and nuances of it, this is great advice.
I'm not sure how much value there is to just state "Build physical strength" and the main take away is to do deadlifts. I think there isn't any doubt from a health perspective that doing weightlifting has benefits for overall health but the program someone should go on is dependent on so many factors. Also, why can't it just be "Stay physically active". I would say that has further greater benefits than even weightlifting. Doing half an hour to an hour of moderate cardio activity every day or a few times a week is great.
My recommendation for someone wanting to seriously get into weight lifting is to do your research. There is definitely a lot of "bro science" out there but fortunately there is also a great set of resources out there that is firmly in the realm of solid science.
Here is some Youtube channels that are very solid on approaching weightlifting grounded in real practice and science: Jeff Nippard, mountaindog1 (John Meadows), Greg Doucette, VitruvianPhysique and Renaissance Periodization.
What I have personally found is that for me there is two primary focus points: reducing the risk of injury and keeping consistent with the program. Reducing risk of injury comes down to knowing your own limits for what exercises are comfortable and not going hard with attempting to do max reps all the time. Personally, I don't do any traditional squats and for deadlifts I use a trap bar. Being consistent is much harder. Making a schedule to be in the gym three to four times a week is really hard.
So, yeah, if you want to get started with weightlifting, spend a few hours with those Youtube channels. Picking a class of exercises as a one size fits all is definitely not the way to go.
> Here is some Youtube channels that are very solid on approaching weightlifting grounded in real practice and science: Jeff Nippard, mountaindog1 (John Meadows), Greg Doucette, VitruvianPhysique and Renaissance Periodization.
I'd add Mark Rippetoe (Starting Strength on Youtube) and Alan Thrall to that list.
I'd also add Jeremy Ethier for the highest production value videos I've comes across, which typically include insights from research in the flow of the video, and which use nice overlay 'explainer graphics,' which make it easier to understand his detailed breakdowns of muscle-targeting, desired motions/angles etc.
I would highly recommend the Athlean-X channel run by Jeff Cavaliere.. He provides first-hand hard-won experiences, rather than only quoting "some studies"..
I think weight exercises are way too overrated and misunderstood. People think they can take a single exercise, load themselves up with a lot of weight and that is enough when in fact this is just asking for problems. Weight exercises require a lot of knowledge, you need to know which muscles you are training because you also need to know how to train the other muscle to keep things in balance and you also need to know how to watch for trouble.
I would personally recommend almost anything else -- running, swimming, natural weight exercises (ie. when you are in unstable position lifting your own weight), that train a lot of different muscle at the same time and help keep things in balance.
I was a college football player, 60 lbs. heavier than now. When I met my current martial arts teacher he told me flat out, "it's going to take me 20 years to fix what you did to your body." He was right. I'm still fighting to heal tha damage that intense weightlifting over many years did to my body.
Strength is nothing without balance, relaxation, and control.
Weight lifting is generally about isolating the muscles, when you should be working on integrating them.
> Weight lifting is generally about isolating the muscles
Bodybuilding often involves a high degree of isolation exercises for fatigue management and for building specific muscles. But good luck deadlifting, squatting, pressing, snatching or clean&jerking etc without "integrating" muscles, or without good balance.
This thread has so much misinformation that it's painful to read. I'd advise anyone offering advice to read "Starting Strength" (Mark Rippetoe), and if you are >40 (or >30 but in very bad physical shape), "The Barbell Prescription: Strength Training for Life After 40". That second book is actually a good read even if you are not over 40, because a) you will be, b) it contains excellent information on our physiology and biochemistry and a great rationale for doing strength training rather than just cardio.
Don't base your decisions on what has been written in this thread. Most information here is anecdotal, garbage, or both.
Pitching in with a few cents of personal experience.
Went to a personal trainer for a year or so - expensive as hell (like €75 per 30 minute session), but I had the money at the time and was lacking in many ways.
I couldn't do push-ups at first, because my wrists hurt too much from RSI. I couldn't really do deadlifts at a proper weight either, because my hands weren't strong enough. But after just a few sessions (using wrist straps), my grip strength increased a lot, and my RSI complaints went away. TL;DR, deadlifts helped me beat RSI. They're back now though, haven't been to a gym this year and before that it was sporadic at best.
Squats, I had trouble with those as well; the trainer identified the cause pretty quickly, pointing out ankle flexibility. Another one to consider. Gave me a specific exercise to sort that one out.
We did a lot of the hip flexor ones as well, split squats I believe they were called? I was so bad at those at first, complete lack of balance and control. I mean even after a year they were still uncomfortable to do, but it was a big improvement.
Part of me would like to go for PT again because I lack intrinsic motivation so I need some other guy telling me what to do, but I can't really afford it anymore.
I don't think this is exclusive to deadlifts either, the main physical benefit from weightlifting (strength training in particular) is that you can lift heavier things. Yay!?
Any outdoorsy activity is vastly superior to it due to exposure to fresh air and sunlight. It also tends to be less boring and monotonous than lifting heavy things for some inexplicable reason.
> the main physical benefit from weightlifting (strength training in particular) is that you can lift heavier things.
Personally I got religion on weight lifting after reading a book on aging. Losing bone and muscle mass is inevitable with age but if you have a good base you’ve got more to lose. If you keep on weight lifting you lose it much slower. I never got serious about it. I’ve never broken 100kg for a squat and I’m perfectly ok with staying there forever. But I’m going to get weak slower than those who only do cardio and I aim to able to sit up unassisted for as long as possible, and to avoid breaking a hip too.
> the main physical benefit from weightlifting (strength training in particular) is that you can lift heavier things
This is false and shortsighted. Here are some benefits of strength training:
- Muscle mass and bone density maintenance and acquisition, which translates to better overall health. Many physical ailments in old age are related to the degradation of lean body tissues and strength training mitigates that. There is a massive change in trends where even general fitness, health-oriented programs for older trainees now incorporate a substantial resistance-training component.
- Strength acquisition causes performance gains in pretty much every sport with an anaerobic component. Even sports where strength training has been historically ignored like soccer (which I follow closely) are seeing a change of trend, as it has become obvious that stronger is better, and that significant strength gains do not have to come at the expense of other athletic attributes such as agility or speed.
- Strength training fixes posture and mobility issues. For untrained individuals, squatting under a light load (or even bodyweight) will likely reveal a host of problems issuing from the modern sedentary life, such as a lack of strength and mobility in key parts of the body, such as the abs or the hip flexors. Training for strength requires addressing these imbalances and helps greatly in the process too.
> Any outdoorsy activity is vastly superior to it due to exposure to fresh air and sunlight
This is in fact ignorant advice, and false, for the following reasons:
- Few "outdoorsy" activities are close to providing the benefits listed above
- You can train for strength outdoors: with your bodyweight, resistance bands, kettlebells or even a barbell setup. This is a false dichotomy that's being put forward.
It is absolutely fine if you want the bulk of your physical activity to be long walks in nature, but do know that the weight of scientific and practical evidence is overwhelming: you won't be optimizing for general health unless you incorporate some degree of resistance training into your physical activity routine.
The strength gains directly translate into mechanical advantages in other situations.
> Any outdoorsy activity is vastly superior to it due to exposure to fresh air and sunlight.
Citation needed.
> It also tends to be less boring and monotonous than lifting heavy things for some inexplicable reason.
You're approaching this with the wrong mindset. Its the minimum viable test case for improvement. Many less variables than 'outside in fresh air and sunlight'. I also think you'll find that many people do lift outside, maybe you're stereotyping based on planet fitnessesque gyms that you've frequented.
It's actually been shown that strength training is more important than cardiovascular conditioning for older people. Being strong is incredibly beneficial. And you can lift heavier things. Why would that not be useful? I use my strength all the time. I also go for long walks in the countryside. You can do both things.
Man, barbell stuff do wonders for me. I sleep better, I eat better, the pain I feel is a good feeling, like, my body is repairing for some heavy effort I made, my sexual drive is (a lot) better, my energy levels are better. Food has a purpose. My hormones are better. I feel great overall. I eat without guilty. Besides that, I'm stronger by the day.
I tried to simulate these feelings with other activities (soccer, running, bike, even calisthenics). No success. Not the way that barbell stuff do to me. And I'm not even a very strong guy (101kg bench, 130kg squat, 150kg deadlift @ 73kg).
I like weightlifting. I pick up heavy thing, I put it down. Working up a sweat is good. And it makes my head clear. You might be overcomplicating exercise. I just have fun with it.
I'm doing the farmer's walk for a couple of months now, and I have to say it seems my posture is getting better. Alongside this, I'm using the blackroll for the legs and back.
I'm quite fond of loaded carries. So, if I may pester you, do you have an opinion on loaded carries regarding correcting bad posture and back problems?
Are you a powerlifter? I feel like I've heard powerlifters shy away from deadlifts for what I'm sure are valid reasons. I can't think of why an olympic-style weightlifter would shy away from deadlifts. I think the best advice would be to get a good PT/coach/trainer.
I can't speak to powerlifting as it's never been my strong suit. I've likely only been to a handful of powerlifting meets and they only were for benchpressing.
Deadlifting as an exercise is actually one of the three main lifts in powerlifting. What makes the best powerlifters is a high total weight combination of Bench/Squat/Deadlift which is generally how it's judged in most competitions these days.
I think there's a small line between deadlifting and what weightlifters like us would call cleaning.
A deadlift is a lower-back dominant exercise, to build power and strength there.
A clean is a similar movement of getting weight off the ground and into the air, but is completely leg and upper-body dominant, with many, many other accessory movements in-between. This is why we see Crossfit athletes implement weightlifting into their training and why it is so popular today- because of the rewarding "total body" strength gains and cardiovascular fitness.
I'm not sure about deadlifting specifically, but weightlifting is supposed to be as good as cardio for your physical and heart health,so I can't agree with the only advantage to lifting weights is to be able to lift heavier things.
The goal in powerlifting and strongman, like any other sports, isn't well being of the performer, but winning and very often that comes at all costs.
Your average desk-worker would benefit greatly from deadlifts with appropriate load and under supervision for correct form that isn't derived from your co-gym-bro's form, but from physics and biomechanics etc.
It’s hard to compete if you’re injured. At an elite level (like IPF world champion) injury prevention and recovering from training are what matters. Many lifters have 25 year careers from junior to starting masters.
Strongman is a bit different, partially because WSM isn’t drug tested.
I can't seem to squat correctly with anterior pelvic tilt. My main goal is to work glutes. I think I can feel them if I "push knees out, press heels into ground, push not pull."
Am I supposed to mainly feel glute, rather than ham, soreness in a DL?
Please only answer if you really know, mainly asking deviation.
I was thinking the exact same thing. Robert Oberst also claims that no professional sportsman does it because the risk to injury is too high: https://youtu.be/FWizDhYjGsc
I think you might be missing the perspective. A heavy deadlift is one of the most "focusing" exercises I know. You can't lift 500lbs+ barbell without complete, singular focus. That's part of the value I derive from this exercise.
Also, squats are harder to learn, require good shoulder mobility (which a lot of desk jockeys don't have), and, at a minimum, require a squat rack, which you're unlikely to have at home. Better yet, I'd advise to use a power rack, which will catch the barbell if you fuck up your balance and fall forward.
TL;DR: while I agree that squat is a better overall exercise, and one that the author of the article should be doing if they don't have the time to do anything else, it requires a lot more gear and training than a deadlift. It is, therefore, not very practical to do barbell squats at home. And if the choice is between a deadlift and no lifting at all, it's deadlift all the way. It hits the posterior chain and core pretty well, and all you need is a barbell and a set of cheap-ass plates.
One way to not overdo it out of the gate is to not use straps on the barbell - you'll be limited by grip strength which is pretty slow to build. You also get to build a truly crushing handshake that way, for when we're back to handshakes. :-)
I recommend the book "Deep Work" by Cal Newport. It makes a very compelling case about why the ability to concentrate during long periods of time is critical to create meaningful work, and it gives more detailed (and better) advice than this post
Counterpoint: I really hated this book, which padded some really obvious advice (better to focus and be productive than waste time) with anecdotes and some vague, unsubstantiated predictions about the future of work.
Cal Newport is a classic example of modern "authors" who take 20 of their most popular blogposts and combine them into a barely-coherent rambling mess and publish it. Then they appear on Joe Rogan, Rich Roll, Tim Ferriss and every other podcast they can manage, and talk at length about 'paradigm-shifts' and other nonsense. On their website, they beg you to subscribe to their newsletter. They might start their _own_ shitty podcast. Through it all, very little in the way of insight is provided, and the little that exists is padded to within an inch of its life in the name of weekly 'content'.
Ryan Holiday, Seth Godin, Mark Manson, Tim Ferriss himself are other perpetrators of this stuff and I fucking hate all of it. The internet is shittier because of this trend, and has caused me to largely forego reading things on it.
To the OP, if you want a good book on attention, Nicholas Carr's 'The Shallows' is my recommendation. It is written with clarity and vision. He gets to the heart of the matter by focussing on two things: neuroplasticity and 'how the medium is the message'. His argument is presented logically, cogently and convincingly.
Ryan Holiday's debut book was called Trust Me, I'm Lying and it pretty much outlines his early internet marketing career and all the nutty tactics they used. He's very blunt and the stories he tells should be required reading. I respect him for being honest.
He doesn't address the weird Timarkothy Newmanson metamorphosis into esoteric actualization guru that coincidentally seems to occur to all of these guys once their hack-the-system-to-print-money tactics stop working, but you don't need that outlined. It's the only book from these guys I can stomach.
I also respect people more when they succeed at their full time job and then talk about how they did it, rather than full-time hucksters.
My problem with Cal, I guess, is how he writes. He's not an author, but a 'blog writer', and comes across as such in his books. Also, his insipid academic style is painfully dry, lacks flair, and contains no grander story beyond the literal. Matthew Walker's Why We Sleep is another example of a book offering good advice, but written by an untrained author.
For me, when I pick up a 'book', as opposed to reading a blog article, I want the author to have spent a while meditating on a point, and to have uncovered some small portion of the universe. That magic is lacking in Cal Newport's writing.
> Matthew Walker's Why We Sleep is another example of a book offering good advice
There were actually several people challenging the claims made by Matthew walker, probably the most exhaustive of them is Alexey Guzey's critique of 'Why we sleep'[0]. The general point is that he takes scientific evidence and then incorrectly infers from it conclusions that fit his narrative.
You can buy their ideas without buying their books. Ocasionally I read their blog posts and I get the gist of their ideas. Most are not new but they are well packed and ready to consume. There is a lot of value on that also.
I didn't hate it, I thought the core thesis was really valuable. But I agree there is a giant problem with almost any "self-help" book - you can deliver the pitch in one coffee meeting but you want to be able to sell books so you pad it out.
I find productivity is a false metric to measure yourself against. The most productive person is the person who writes the most code / features, but usually the most important people don't write code, they help others, whether that's understanding problems or giving direction.
I still agree with the title, I give my attention to as much as I can handle, and no more. I have (restricted) notifications turned on, I try have interesting things around me, I tackle as many problems as reasonable at the same time, but slowly because I find the best solutions are where I've had a while to think about while in the shower for example, and how they interact with other problems.
PS: if you're trying to learn something, disregard everything I said, focus is so important when learning
Attention is extremely important but other things are too like knowing the language and libraries you use and knowing the domain and design patterns that are useful in your domain.
What I found to my surprise is that to increase my attention, noise-cancelling headphones are extremely helpful, even when I'm working with no other people around me.
“My high-level workflow looks something like this: identify the problem to solve; think on the problem and let ideas percolate; research, discuss, and experiment with these ideas; implement and test the solution; deliver and maintain the solution.”
I find talking to people really helpful in pinning down the first step: defining the problem.
I am not a FAANG SV top notch developer, just a data scientist in a successful but still small European start up so my experience must be very different from the one of crowd here.
I have noticed that most of my time is spent finding what to do, get their opinion about new projects from my team members (who are nice people I enjoy working with), and most of the time I find that I am not the person qualified for the job and the problem can be solved in a way that does not involve data work.
Finding what to do and how to minimize the effort in implementing a solution is 90% of my job.
There are days I write SQL as well and those day I am very focused. The days I am not focused it's mostly because There is no go from A to B job to do.
That sounds pretty common for good data scientists in America too. Software engineering is much more likely to solve business problems, so the work available and definition of what the customer wants is generally less amorphous from my experience.
I understand the frustration with badly asked questions, but not sure I’d want to work with someone who views conversations with coworkers as “offering little value”
I've had jobs where I would 100% agree with you and jobs where I would 100% disagree.
In that sense, I sort of want to congratulate you to only have encountered productive, collaborative work environments, and not backstabbing, infighting, untrusting ones.
I should clarify. I mean badly asked questions, to mean that someone has asked a lazy question, and not done their due diligence before asking for a hand-hold. I am all for helping someone with a good question. I do it daily.
Attention is our most valuable asset as human beings in general. What we put our attention on, is what becomes our life experience and our memories.
In many religions/practices, a very big part of the path to enlightenment is to "take back control" of your attention, so you can consciously direct it to "what matters".
I would like to add some different advice to what I just read here. I meditate and in addition to helping me know my connectedness to the universe, all people, and nature here on earth, meditation is exercise to improve the ability to concentrate on work, art, cooking, really listening to people, etc. In my experience meditation == super power.
I also believe that what we eat strongly affects our lives. For myself, I avoid processed foods. I simply suggest paying attention to what you eat and how you feel, and act accordingly.
I also think that taking many short work breaks during the day helps productivity, especially if you are stuck on something. I live a 90 second walk from a trailhead leading to national forest land. Amazing how 15 minutes in nature will bust through solving technical problems. Five minute breaks to play ping pong or racket ball on an Oculus Quest is also a good way for me to pause work and sometimes return with new ideas of perspectives.
I have to use Ping ID quite a bit to log into customers' systems. I also live in south Louisiana.
The last 5 months have been extremely difficult to maintain focus because, for me at least, it's really difficult for my brain to not check tropical forecasts every time I look at my phone.
I've noticed that my productivity triples when there are no storms in the gulf due to the fact that it's much easier to maintain my attention on engineering tasks. I've thought of setting up a second phone that I have with ONLY ping on it, but I feel that it's the stress driving me to check the tropics, and if I took the time to create a 'just ping' device my mind would find another way to compulsively check.
I find the language in this article conflicting. People have a tendency to relay advice on what has worked best for them; with little regard for whether or not it will work best for others.
On one hand the auther uses a lot of "my" language to convey what works best for him. That's great and I am happy to read what works best for others, but what makes it a bit short-sighted is the shift in language from:
>The more attention I can devote, the more cycles I can complete, and the more productive I am.
to:
>Make your place of work boring and tidy.
>Make your smart phone dumb.
>Be an OS minimalist.
etc.
This shift from "here's what works best for me" to "here's what will work best for you" is quite imposing and presumptuous.
It's very true that everyone's ideal formula and variables are different.
Narrative and anecdotal writing allows one to take from it what you like, as trying things out works better for some than understanding it all to begin with and it shouldn't be discounted just because it may not work for all.
Conversely, it might be worth considering the importance of the reader to learn to extract what's good for them out of any reading and not expect everything to be curated just for them.
Getting hung up on how a piece of writing is not perfectly catered for acceptance by the reader is likely going to leave a lot of nuggets, value and insights missed.
The comment above could be taken as merely a counteract of pushing another interpretation of it being imposing and presumptuous. Still there's many folks who don't take this writing style as imposing and presumptuous.
Agreed. I don't want to work somewhere that's boring. I've been doing the OS minimalist thing, it's cool being able to become productive on a new Mac in 45 minutes, but lately I've been missing how customized my old Arch+XMonad setup was. Marking this as "not a culture fit". :)
I feel like part of this is just a result of how hostile a web-based work experience can be.
On my work computer, to do a simple task it often requires logging in to myriad services that need to be finagled in concert. Each with a different password that expires regularly, but of course also MFA. Often more “work” than the “work” itself.
And that’s often the happy path rather than multiple attempts to the same service, vpn woes, etc.
Oh you just updated your computer? Now re-log in to your vpn, atlassian, GitLab, slack, zoom, outlook, aws, and others. Want to watch a slack recording? You’re logged into the desktop application but now enter your credentials, again, this time in the browser.. it never ends.
One one hand I agree. But my experience is that an okay password manager makes the process of logging into things, creating new accounts, updating passwords, etc. so streamlined that it rarely bothers me anymore.
I highly recommend the browser extension Session Buddy [0], if you, like me, regularly find you’ve opened tens to hundreds of tabs.
It’s quite cathartic to save out my tabs into topic-based sessions, close everything, then reopen just one session on whatever I want to focus on after an exploratory phase.
I totally agree - Deleted Facebook and Twitter, dumbed down my phone and keep it out of sight for these reasons. Also, the more you can bundle into Emacs, the faster you go.
I second the Emacs point. I have Mail and IRC configured in Emacs, and they are my favorite ways to be contacted. Most other protocols/sites require me to go out of my way to check if I have a message (either by visiting the site or checking my phone), which is an unnecessary context switch. Email and IRC are a simply indicated in my mode line, when they arive, no further distractions.
I would have gotten rid of my smartphone a long time ago, if I weren't bound to it because of Whatsapp. Even at this moment, I'm distracting myself because of it :(
This is part of why I prefer text messages over phone calls, but for the very few exceptions when a phone call is more efficient or required. (Ie when multiple steps / detailed interaction is needed). With phone calls, I specifically don’t like how I have to immediately stop what I’m working on and focus my attention upon answering the call, as opposed to a text message where almost nothing is lost if I wait 60 seconds before looking at it.
I’m still surprised that many find this offensive when I make this request of them; or when they disregard my request and I’m forced to ignore their calls until they text.
I have one client who would called me anywhere from 1 to 10+ times a day with small tasks I needed to do , which were much more efficiently communicated over text. (Things such as “check access point of unit 302 of the Westside building , user can’t connect”). The phone calls would never be less than five minutes in length, each, and of mostly small talk and other irrelevant info to the original purpose of the call. I strongly considered stopping work for this client, but for the fact that I so much enjoyed the work he brought me. This work was all remote/from behind my computer (not onsite work).
I have found that an Apple Watch or an android equivalent makes a good dumb smartphone, and regularly leave my phone far away or at home if I need to focus.
I like the author touch on physical activity. Whether it's deadlift or not, it's not important. What's important is being active. Your brain just works better after good work out. Try it, stick to a good workout plan for a week and you'll notice the difference.
I've recently started using VS Code and my favorite feature by far is Zen Mode. It allows me to focus a lot more, takes away a lot of the distractions I get from my million open browser tabs and other apps trying to get my attention.
Over the last 100 years, humans' lifespan has only increased by ~5 years, if you lived to be a teenager.
Think of all the 'productivity' we've had in the past 100 years, that's +5 years when you're already old and finished.
Great. Can we do the math on how we've nearly blown ourselves up many times over, are destroying the environment, working 40+ hours/week and so on?
Worth it for everyone to be 'productive' for a collective increase of 1 or 2 years within your lifetime, assuming we don't destroy the planet or blow ourselves up?
You decide, keep your productivity if you wish, I'm going for a walk and enjoying my life :)
I use the pomodoro technique not just because it actually helps me get started—the best way I've found, for me, to combat procrastination—and get things done, but also to combat the sitting problem he mentions. Standing up and walking around the house for five minutes periodically helps me at least stretch my legs.
That aside, I find pretty much all of his advice pretty useful and a lot of it I already at least try to follow. Good to know it doesn't work just for me.
I did two things once it became clear that working for home was going to drag on for months:
- bought a really good office chair. Herman Miller Aeron. Incredibly expensive but also no regrets at all. I sit in this thing for 10+ hours a day with zero issues.
- bought a pull-up bar. Great for either an exercise regime, or just for something to do when you're pondering a work related issue.
I got the Steelcase Leap from some kind of office liquidation store for 50% off. There are some great deals and these are very sturdy and well made chairs so second hand is often just as good.
I second buying the chair... if you spend any significant portion of your day with a specific piece of furniture (chair, bed), it's worth spending a little more on it.
One thing I've discovered is that I can't sit in front of the computer and write code all day. Actually scheduling time for meetings and talking with people seems like a distraction but realistically I can only code up to 4 hours a day anyway so no point avoiding users/teammates/bosses thinking you'd be more productive coding.
Attending to competing priorities is a nightmare. They do more distraction if we do not prioritize further (finer grain) on already prioritized items. Mostly somewhat related to this is the context switch. Not only we need finer prioritization, but also grouping them to minimize context switch.
Doesn’t this regiment render the subject rather dull? Trapped in a loop with little in the way of new inspiration this sounds like the life of a drone not a man.
TL;DR - The older I get and experiment the more I realised:
a "BALANCED" approach(philosophy) is the best in all things health. For long term vitality(fitness-function). Ignore short-term gains (fitness function) from "extreme views" or choices - they either don't last or is not sustainable.
I see a lot of anecdotes and recommendations for health and exercise regime etc. Allow me to cite my own experience and armchair-opinions.
I'm in no way an expert or special(physiology) - although my mom thinks I'm super !
I think many of the HN community can relate to my experience.
I'm 38 male generally healthy (minus some sport/exercise injuries). CompSci and BioChem background+education
I'm sort of an extremest in all things and especially health ! This include taking a "somewhat" extreme view (and implementation) where I will usually for a few months focus on one thing exclusively as the new gospel.
Most of the items on the list had some sort of short-term benefit, but it either didn't last or was really not sustainable.
a Balanced approach to diet(a little of everything that is considered not terrible, meat,fish,veggies,chocolate,carbs etc)
a Balanced approach to exercise ( strength + cardio + Lots of REST) I can't stress rest enough. I went from working out 5 days a week, to 3 days a week and I feel better !
Less injuries, my two big health issues and 5 operations over a decade was because of exercise injuries. Maybe I'm just getting older or my DNA is not correct for too many physiology stresses. Or hell maybe I'm just doing all the exercises wrong !? (I don't think I am though)
I would not underestimate the minimalism philosophy in reducing clutter. It gets to a point where doodads and clutter is demoralising, and often materialistic and distracting.
Pardon the cliche, but we really do live in a society of consumerism. I'm a victim to it to some degree. I've spent a lot of money of stuff that I regret on reflection, but that's what fuels my perspective and makes my lessons learned. If you have material stuff you love, and you don't regret it, kudos, you probably don't need my advice -- but don't think your advice is universal.
But guess what, a nice backdrop in my study didn't help my work. Focusing did. Locking my phone and removing distractions did. This weird culture of buying stuff that aims to magically provide a silver bullet to all problems. Okay, maybe one exception -- plants. They are great.
Protip, if you are a college student on a tight budget, guess what, you are automatically a minimalist :).
> There is a difference between clutter and having some decoration. Proponents of minimalism seem to conflate the two.
See that's what I disagree with, I find decoration in a workspace clutter. And I say to you I am not demoralized. I am happier, more focused and my wallet is heavier without random doodads in my eyeline. An empty workspace is a dream to me. Pure focus is the minds elation in my humble opinion.
> Also whenever someone complains about something being materialistic that automatically sets off my BS detector.
Well, shucks, you caught me! Because I am a here to sell you my minimalist blog, book and podcast!
...
Not really.
I promise I am not, but I can see why you BS detector is high. Fad peddlers and the mass media marketing discovered not owning stuff can be called minimalism and make youtube videos on why living in a van is the future, when in reality opponents just say it's just a coping mechanism for not having money.
I've been more of a minimalist for most of my life, but I found that it's kind of a prison to view everything through a lens of justification or necessity. In some ways a walnut brown apartment with nothing but white furniture and nothing on the walls can be beautiful, but often it's just dull and sad like a cube farm. To each their own, but I say fuck it, put some neat stuff on the walls and paint the whole place red.
I played American football for 8 years and I have lifted weights for 20+ years. I preach deadlifts to any male hacker and/or office worker who will listen. To the women, I preach kettlebell swings.
Why don’t you preach the same thing to both genders? If kettle bells work for women and deadlifts work for men, why not preach both to both genders based on current capacity?
Muscles are different between genders, on average.
A woman's 1RM is a lower percentage of her body weight than a man's (on any exercise, on average), but she will usually be able to do more reps at e.g. 70% of 1RM.
So it makes sense to exercise that higher endurance, and kettlebells are very nice for their mix of strength/endurance work.
(I'm male and love both the barbell and the kettlebell).
Mihaly Csikszentmihályi and others began researching flow after Csikszentmihályi became fascinated by artists who would essentially get lost in their work. Artists, especially painters, got so immersed in their work that they would disregard their need for food, water and even sleep. The theory of flow came about when Csikszentmihályi tried to understand the phenomenon experienced by these artists. Flow research became prevalent in the 1980s and 1990s, with Csikszentmihályi and his colleagues in Italy still at the forefront. Researchers interested in optimal experiences and emphasizing positive experiences, especially in places such as schools and the business world, also began studying the theory of flow at this time.[2]
Achieving flow is a lot easier when you're painting what's in your soul than being a software dev for the top 3 accounting software developer in the greater Wichita metropolitan area.
The article is pretty accurate, based on my experience of writing almost 1 million LOC over the decades.
Build physical strength. The damage done by sitting 8+ hours a day is underrated. - Right, also being folded up in a sitting position affects your organs (chi). Certainly go for a walk for at least a mile per day. Deadlifts, dunno about that specifically.
Make your place of work boring and tidy. - Yes, I use a dedicated desk with almost no clutter.
Make your smart phone dumb. - I use a Blackberry 8700g which has no current apps, so no distractions. 2 week standby battery.
Be an OS minimalist. - NA.
Other - I should use more terminal windows to have different apps open at the same time (editor, SQL client, etc.) but I usually don't.
Steve Jobs and other Silicon Valley luminaries used to literally "walk around the block" near their house with a guest and hold walking meetings. I think the San Jose Mercury News had an article on that.
I discovered that habit independently after moving to SV, since the weather is almost always good enough for a walk.
Plus walking alone after finishing a feature lets your subconscious queue up the next priority.
I'm biased, being a musician, but my experience and many of my colleagues is that musicians are often excellent coders, and I credit this to the fact that you need to master your attention to become a good musician. There is no other way than getting good at putting yourself alone in a room with no distractions and practicing in a focused manner. I remember when I hired a friend of mine (pro bass player) as a junior coder and it was so obvious watching him learn.
Personally my top tips for getting better at attention management would be:
- Take up an instrument or some other hobby involving regular, quiet, uninterrupted, solo deliberate practice. Do it daily. It becomes your rinse cycle.
- Adopt the pomorodoro or other similar technique of doing 20-30 minutes of completely focused, uninterrupted work at a time and then taking a real break for a few minutes. This is both how I work and practice.
- Read a lot, on paper.
- Run - IMHO way better than lifting for overall mental effects and mental focus
- Get enough sleep, religiously
my two cents Canadian. :-)