I never understood why people are so against talking to the people that give them a ride. I once was in a very rough spot in my life and talking with taxi-drivers almost daily about the most trivial stuff (weather, politics, traffic) used to give me a very healthy reprieve from the black thoughts I used to have.
As a woman, there are definitely times I don't want to deal with a driver hitting on me. It happens annoyingly frequently, and it's this delicate social situation that requires more mental effort to negotiate than I want to give it.
Friendly conversation (with men and women both) is fine and I've engaged in plenty. But if a driver is too busy telling me just how beautiful I am and as a result drives me to the cargo part of the airport rather than the passenger terminal and makes me late... and I have to sort of humor him and not just say wtf because that's the social contract? Or if I have to for some reason convince him I'm an engineer and not a dancer in spite of my long legs? Yeah, I'll pass on that.
In other situations I can thank them for the compliment and go somewhere else, but with a driver I'm stuck for quite a while. And sometimes I'm really not in the mood. I've complained before there really needs to be a "please don't hit on me" option, and STFU is a decent alternative.
> and it's this delicate social situation that requires more mental effort to negotiate than I want to give it
I understand what you're saying, and I recognize the blessing/curse that comes with attracting people.
However, as I've become an adult with a career and have left essentially all my friends behind, I've realized that making new friends is incredibly difficult. Even worse is trying to find dating partners. Lately I've been resorting to just talking to strangers and seeing if I can start a conversation.
Not to excuse the behavior of your drivers, but you should understand that men are having a difficult time with approaching women these days. We feel really inadequate and sort of aimless. The dating world is seriously dangerous right now and to be honest, there isn't a lot of guidance from women.
I've experienced a range of rejections and the least painful are always honest and upfront. Maybe you could try that?
>Not to excuse the behavior of your drivers, but you should understand that men are having a difficult time with approaching women these days. We feel really inadequate and sort of aimless. The dating world is seriously dangerous right now and to be honest
Are you in the US? Leave it. Seriously, I encourage all men to become expats if they don't already have children in the US that they are trying to raise. Just completely abandon a system and society that is failing to meet your needs. If you feel inadequate, ask yourself A) by whose metrics? and B) why?. Go to the gym, dress better. Have goals in your life (outside of dating) that you aggressively pursue. The US dating scene is increasingly insane, and men don't even realize it because they aren't exposed to kind, helpful, friendly, feminine women that are simply abundant in other cultures (or even in Flyover states, if you look there).
And finally:
> there isn't a lot of guidance from women
The more women you date, the more you will realize that most dating "guidance" from women is absolutely useless. The cognitive dissonance most of them have will blow your mind when you witness it first-hand. And women don't want a man that they have to "guide" anyway. They want to attach themselves to a guy who's got his sh*t together and knows what he wants.
I do live in the US, and I really enjoy my area. There's an abundance of nearby outdoor rock climbing and snowboarding, both of which I'm very skilled at. I have a well-paying tech job, no debt, not much baggage, blue eyes. I think my biggest deterrent for women is that I'm somewhat short and have a slight receding hairline, which is apparently enough to detract from all my positives.
I've lived in the Midwest before and it's worse there, partly because I couldn't practice my sports which kept me out of shape, partly because it was even harder finding like-minded friends, in part because I don't like regular sports. I would definitely consider moving out of country if that opportunity ever came up.
> And women don't want a man that they have to "guide" anyway. They want to attach themselves to a guy who's got his sh*t together and knows what he wants.
This leads into what I consider unrecognized female privilege. From what I can tell, women have a pretty big list of superficial expectations from their partners, and are really quick to dismiss those who don't fall into place. They also gave an abundance of interested suitors who they can sort through until they find they one they way. Me on the other hand, I'm lucky to find someone interested in me who even passes my most basic tests.
Equality in dating doesn't exist and it's highly skewed in favor of women.
There's not really a humble way to say this. As an attractive man who has his shit together and makes good money, I have zero issues with dating and if anything I feel more in control of the situation than the women I meet.
The issue is likely that you're not very attractive or you're setting your standards too high for the women you pursue.
I'm convinced it's mostly my height and lack of friends. I'm not particularly handsome but I'm definitely not ugly.
As for standards, why should we settle for less than an equal version of ourselves? Same height, education, looks, strength, ability, finances, etc.? In my experience, women almost exclusively "date up".
My unkind but honest assessment given the evidence is you're over rating how attractive you are, both physically and socially. The good news you can fix both a lot. Hit the gym, get jacked, make a lot of friends. Most anyone can do it. Also if your hair sucks just embrace it and shave it off and grow an awesome beard. And accept that any woman taller than you is probably not interested.
I appreciate the help, and you're not wrong about many things. However I think I'm fairly aware of my attractiveness, I'm just sad the country uses shallow metrics for attraction. This country is keen on glorifying narcissism and exclusion rather than humility and inclusion, and that's not now I grew up. I'd rather give my love away than play stupid social games.
I'm athletically fit and don't have any intentions of bulking up. I'm at the climbing gym a few times a week, and climb outdoors a few times a month. Multi-pitch, trad, free-solo, whatever.
The biggest challenge, and the entire reason I started commenting here, is that finding friends is hard. Chatting someone up is easy, but getting a new person to take time out of their schedule to hang out with you is really difficult.
Also, as my username combined with what else I've said might imply, I'm a transgender woman. I really thought dating women as a woman would be harder after transitioned, because most women are straight.
But the confidence benefits were huge enough that my dating life is actually a lot better. I only online dated before then, and after, I can go to (queer) bars and pick up girls and bring them home. I still have the problem that I mentioned in my other reply, that it's really hard to get people to stay (I say "people will go to bed with me, but they won't wake up with me")
I don't think you're transgender (and if you are, that's a separate discussion), but the lesson I draw from this is that you are better off if you maximize the things that naturally interest you rather than trying to be someone you're not. Snowboarding and rock climbing are both great contexts to meet people in. If you are confident and in your element there, you'll probably attract people much better than if you put a lot of effort into trying to be someone you're not.
I also have the somewhat receding hairline which is a lot more unsightly on a woman than a man. I had a couple consults over the last couple weeks about hair transplants, actually. Usually I wear berets. But nobody else is as bothered about it as I am; the hat always comes off when I bring someone home.
If you put a certain energy and intensity into the world, people will see it and not the other more minor things. If you're reserved and unconfident then they'll see more of the rough details. If you feel "aimless" as you've said you are, people won't see the energy you put towards the things you love, they'll see that instead.
Some people are born confident and attractive and never had much reason to question it. Some of us really had to work for it. But the answer wasn't PUA stuff (I spent a decade trying that), but transitioning and really embracing who I am.
One of my complaints is sending what I consider very obvious "I'm not interested" signals - like putting in earbuds - still doesn't stop them. There's something that stops me from just saying "I'm not interested"; for one thing it labels what they're doing as hitting on me and they might argue back with me ("Hey, I'm just giving you a compliment!") and/or get upset. It's usually easier to just nod, mumble, and act much more interested in my phone than them and hope they get the hint.
What do you mean about the dating world being dangerous?
I'm a lesbian anyway, but I think regardless of gender or identity it's tough because people (including myself) are very emotionally guarded. Whether you have trouble finding dates or not, every relationship is at arms length, every plan can be dropped when a better one comes along, you "don't want to catch feelings", etc. Nobody wants to firmly commit to a time for lunch, let alone a relationship (even without monogamy).
That kind of sucks, but in terms of it being dangerous, it usually only feels physically so if you get involved with men. Emotionally though, it does feel dangerous... it sort of feels like a race to the bottom where whoever cares the least wins. I kind of miss really caring about the people I date; but they usually don't care about me, and if I do care about them, often as not that scares them off.
I think a bigger statement here is that nobody is _entitled_ to anything.
We have an informal agreement that you shouldn't hit on service workers because essentially they can't escape the situation gracefully, but that agreement is not bilateral because as a customer you generally do have the freedom to be up front or let it pass.
Obviously there are shades of grey to everything, and by no means am I excusing all behaviour, but the power dynamic is in favour of the client not the worker, and if you're respectful of the individual then I don't see why it should be stigmatic to approach someone.
For context I've had waitresses give me their number, and that was just nice, no expectation that I have to reply and no repercussions if I didn't (as-in, they didn't have a means to berate me for not replying). But, yeah, shades of grey.
Even though I was a professional software engineer at the time, I was also a part time fitness instructor for over a decade. I even taught at women’s only gyms. I was really careful about not approaching anyone in my class - for the most part, women do not want to be approached at the gym - especially a women’s only gym, they go there specifically not to be bothered.
On a slightly tangential note women only gyms are the only place where some observant Muslim women could work out in comfortable clothing.
In the context of a lyft/uber it's a bit different; it would not only be socially awkward but also usually make me late (and possibly even dangerous) to stop the ride halfway through and exit.
It's not the case (thankfully) that I've felt my safety is in danger in these situations... it's just annoying.
Dating is all about risk. If you can't hit on your client, then what about the person at the grocery store? What about at the DMV? What about on the street?
If we eliminate flirting from all the places it's unacceptable, then there wouldn't be any more flirting at all. Considering it's generally the man's responsibility to initiate (cultural standards, not my own, I would love if women took this responsibility), this really just negatively affects men and not women, furthering the inequality in dating.
Some places you should not flirt. I’m not flirting with a client. They are there to conduct business. Like I said above, I was a part time fitnesses instructor and occasional personal trainer. I would never even think about flirting with a client when I was single. I definitely wouldn’t flirt with a subordinate.
I always told myself not to flirt with a coworker (don’t mess where you eat), but I met my now-wife at my job, but by the time we started dating I knew the company was on its last leg so I said what the heck?
It was slightly hard dating in my 20s, it was even harder in my mid 30s after being divorced, I can’t imagine dating at 40+ if I were single again.
Flirting with a co-worker is still very inappropriate though, to some people. It's risky and there are no clear rules, which really sucks for men if they're expected to initiate.
In my case, what was the worse that could happen? They were going to fire me? I was doing presentations for potential buyers of the company. I knew we didn’t have more than two month’s runway left. If I had thought I was risking a long career at the company I might have been more careful.
Because for some people talking to strangers is hard. Literally - like for some people carrying a 50 lbs bag might be hard, so can be talking to a stranger. Can I take this 50 lbs bag and walk with you for a mile or two because you think it'd be fun for you? Yes, I can. Do I want to? Maybe, if you're my friend or I feel like working out or just in the mood. Or maybe not, because I don't feel like doing this work now. Maybe I just want to rest and be alone with my thoughts right now. Not for the whole life - but right now, in this moment.
People have different needs and different informational metabolism. Some like conversing with strangers, some - not really.
Reading this felt like you've been observing me at the gym and documenting my behaviour. I've been trying to establish an exercise habit and at some point I'd like to become comfortable again talking to strangers. It used to be a skill that I practiced unknowingly when I was young and could talk to anyone. Now there are days when I'm done working out and it takes all the effort just to make eye contact with someone and mutter something like "hey, how was your class?"
Don't get me wrong - many introverts can talk to strangers just fine if they need it (just as I can lift 50 lbs if I need it), it's just something they don't particularly enjoy doing. It's work. If it needs to be done, it will be done, but if it can be avoided - it will be avoided. I am not sure one needs some training to change that - if I don't enjoy doing something, why waste time on doing it if I could instead do something I already enjoy doing?
for an ice-breaker, dont go with an emotional check-in lol. much easier to say something humorous like 'fukin weights, bastards are gonna kill me rather than make me fit'
Being silent in the absence of anything noteworthy to talk about is exactly the healthy reprieve some people are looking for. I personally find it absolutely taxing to talk about the weather or the traffic because I just don't enjoy talking for the sake of talking and I shouldn't be pressured to meet an arbitrary social expectation I have no interest in.
> why people are so against talking to the people that give them a ride.
I'm an ethnic minority where I live, but I'm white. Do I want to be dragged into some racist conversation fuelled by Nigel Farage on talk-radio and by made-up stories in The Sun? Nope. Even if I did, would it change anything? Nope - a 20-min cab ride is not enough time to dispel all the crap accumulated over decades of disinformation.
If I had a STFU button for regular cabs, most of the time I would hit it hard. But there isn't one, so I put earphones up, send all the social signals I can think of that say "leave me alone", and tip well if they do exactly that.
How do you "give respect" to people who, given half the chance, would literally ship you out of the country you've built your life in for the last two decades?
How do you find "common ground" with people who are seriously convinced that your mere existence is robbing them of something they cannot coherently articulate, when all the facts are that you are actually helping their own welfare?
I am afraid you have no idea what being an European (or most other ethnic minorities) is like in 2019 Britain. For us, this is not your standard dinner-party "lib vs con" parlour game, or the occasional shouting match at a family reunion - it's the difference between being a citizen in a modern democracy and being something very close to a Jew in Brüning's Germany.
When people are right-wing extremists, they can't help but bring up their BS in casual conversation. I've seen it many times. They live in an entirely different reality, where the basic facts simply are not the same as the facts you believe in, because they listen to entirely different sources of information. Talking with them is futile, as the OP said: who has time to try to dispel the crap disinformation, and it's probably not going to be successful anyway because why should they listen to you over the slick-sounding guy who has radio airtime? And what reasonable, intelligent person wants to be dragged into an unhappy political conversation every time he takes a cab ride?
You're right, all extremists are like that. The thing is, the OP was claiming that we need to talk to these people, respect them, engage with them, etc., even when we're just taking a ride in a taxi. My position is that, no, you don't need to try to talk to extremists when you just want to get from point A to point B, and also that trying to change these peoples' minds rarely works out.
Finally, no, singling out one group does not make you look like an opposing group's extremists. If you complain about neo-Nazis marching in your city this weekend, for instance, that does not somehow make you look like an extreme leftist. The simple fact is that right-wing extremism is very common these days among certain groups of people; you're probably not going to find any extreme leftists in a random rural American town, for instance.
> I never understood why people are so against talking to the people that give them a ride.
I'm not always against talking to people, but there are definitely drivers who don't know how to read the mood in the car and will drag you into conversations you don't care about. Particularly if you're on a 4:30 am ride to the airport, you might just want to be left alone.
>I never understood why people are so against talking to the people that give them a ride.
Its frequently one of the few times during the day where I do not have to interact with someone, especially when traveling for work. Sometimes I just want 10 minutes to myself to think.
Ideally that’s a two way street, with driver that really want to talk to clients not accepting silent drives and vice versa.
Otherwise, just as talking to people seem to have helped you a lot, for other people not having to talk is also a godsend. I think it’s fine to not understand everyone’s motives or functionning, as long as their needs are met somehow.
I like talking with the person on the wheel on my Uber rides, unless I am busy with something important. Even when I am in a new place and don't know the local language well, I try to talk to them. It just gives a different perspective to what I usually get from my social circle and makes the time go by so fast.
I never understood why people are so against talking to the people that give them a ride. I once was in a very rough spot in my life and talking with taxi-drivers almost daily about the most trivial stuff (weather, politics, traffic) used to give me a very healthy reprieve from the black thoughts I used to have.