Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

Reminds me of a story I heard many years ago. UK power plugs have three prongs to include earth. If you rewire earth, live and neutral AND alter the plug wall socket to match, then all is well, but if someone steals your PC then plugs it in using a standard wall socket then ouch.


When my grandparents died and we sold their house (in the uk) we had some builders in to tidy up some stuff and they discovered that in a big part of the house the earth was actually wired to live in the sockets. They'd lived with it for 40 years or something. Guess not many devices actually use the earth.

(The wiring was originally done by my grandad'a brother - use a professional people...)


If you're not going to do it professionally, at least use one of these:

http://smile.amazon.com/GE-3-Wire-Receptacle-Tester-50542/dp...

(that's US wiring but surely there's a UK equivalent)


Nothing wrong with that device, but it's also nice to know about its big brother:

http://smile.amazon.com/Amprobe-INSP-3-Wiring-Inspection-Tes...

This tester can simulate a 10A or 15A load and measure voltage drop, which should remain within 5% of its unloaded value (this is the recommendation in U.S. code). This can identify situations where connections are weak, or wires are too long or too thin.

It has also helped me to improve my wiring practices. It turns out that keeping voltage within 5%, under a 15A load on a 20A circuit, is pretty demanding, and a series of (say) 8 or 10 twisted connections may not meet it, if you are not careful with your technique.

The device can also test GFCI outlets by allowing some current to leak to ground. This provides an end-to-end test in situations where the GFCI is not present at the outlet.


I've found earth and live wires mixed in 2 different houses I've lived in. Programmers are not the only ones that do shoddy work :)


I lived in a place where someone managed to swap wires at one of the switchboards. There was no ground (not that uncommon), so the supposed 0 was wired to the ground at the sockets (that's what you should do). What it means with German/French-combo style socket is that phase (+/-230V AC) was wired to metal parts sticking out of a socket or any grounded appliance plugged in.

Everything plugged into affected sockets seemed to work just fine. Even a desktop computer + monitor. We only found out because roommate was getting electric shocks from the metal PC casing.


I used to work in a school where students reported electric shocks from the laptop computers. The "electrician" came and unbelievably, wrapped a wire round the earth pin of a plug, and bolted the other end to a desk. Apparently it solved the electric shock problem which I guess was static.


Or, if you end up forgetting about it or your s.o. moves the laptop from your desk to the other side of the room...


The original story actually relates to a computer running a BBS back in the 90's. The plugs were duck taped to sockets and signs more or less read "do not unplug... ever".

When the place was raided by the police and the computer confiscated, the fun and games began.

The computer was never returned.


UK power plugs also require a fuse, which I believe is not mandatory anywhere else.


They're ugly as hell, and insanely painful if you tread on them, but UK plugs are a bastion of good engineering.

Things like not being able to stick things into the line/neutral holes unless the ground pin (which is longer) is inserted make them very safe, and the plastic lower part of the line/neutral pins to stop you accidentally touching something that will have current running through it until the plug is safely inserted is inspired.


I know Britons love their plugs, and I have never quite understood why. They look brutish, clunky and over-engineered. The opposite of elegant.

The reason why they have fuses is so you can use ring circuits, which saves copper compared to the usual radial wiring. So its just about saving a little money.

Everyone now gets to state his favourite plug type. Bring it on!

Mine is the swiss Type J (http://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plugs-and-sockets/j...). Its safe, not an eyesore and very space efficient. Its safe against voltage reversal, usually has a protective shroud and the ground pin is contacting first. Well engineered, very swiss like.


Does anyone actually care that their plugs are elegant? In any case, your Type J is missing the fact that in the UK, the cables point down towards the floor rather than sticking out, keeping them flush with the wall and often allowing you to hide the plugs behind things.


> Does anyone actually care that their plugs are elegant?

Some people do, I think its an expression of culture. Its hard not to notice that the swiss and the nordic countries (especially Sweden and Norway) value a certain aesthetics. This expresses itself in many things, ranging from architecture to product design, art and the design of public spaces.

There is a reason swiss typography was big, and why nordic design is appreciated all over the world. It could only emerge from these cultural surroundings, its a mindset.

That plug is an expression of british engineering values. Its certainly a very well designed plug, but I also believe the reason why swiss and nordic products are more popular than british ones is that they are made with a different approach.

Probably those same values are also the reason why british music is so great, and why swiss music is... oh well, have you ever listened to mundart-rock? So I'm not saying X is better than Y, there are trade-offs involved.


"why swiss music is... oh well..."

Reminds me of a favorite recording of Dizzy Gillespie playing with his band at Montreux. It's a pretty reserved audience, and Dizzy, who was renowned for having a lively interchange with his audiences, said while introducing vibe player Milt Jackson:

"So far, you are a typical Swiss audience. Of course, a Swiss audience might not be the greatest audience in the world. But they will do until the real thing comes along."

The last was said mirthfully, pausing to emphasize each word, and the audience chuckles good-naturedly, knowing their limitations.



You're aware that's not real, right?


Uh, of course I am... now. I wasn't.


Swiss person here. The total length of the "plug" part of a swiss plug is actually roundabout the same as the width of a british plug. They fit just fine behind couches, shelves, etc.


And as seen here (http://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plugs-and-sockets/j...) the socket is indented into the wall so less of the cable protrudes beyond the flat surface of the wall.


That's not always the case - but it frequently is, and yes, does make the direction of the cable even less of an issue!


of course. Did you miss the article yesterday about Macbook going with USB-C? Apple has made bank on just getting people to buy better plugs and cables (USB, Magsafe, Lightning connector, etc.). People also spend tons of money to hide cables when mounting TV screens.


Better is a different thing from elegant, though.


Part of the niceness of the UK plug is that if you pull the cable right out of the housing, the internals disconnect in the safest order. The plug comparison sites I've found don't discuss the internals of the plugs much; does anyone know how other plug types approach this (or do they just ignore it)?

Looking at plugs, I suspect that many get round this by making the housing of the plug much more firmly attached to the cable.


They don't ignore it; Schuko (CEE 7/3) plugs also keep earth connected while live and neutral pins are pulled out. Same is true for the French (CEE 7/5) and Danish (107-2-D1) designs.


That's when you pull the plug out of the socket.

OP is talking about the failure mode when you pull the cable out of the plug - the live and neutral cables are shorter and tighter and will fail first, leaving the earth wire to fail last.


I didn't quite understand the whole concept. The idea in Schuko plugs is that you cannot pull the cable out of the plug. It's totally fixed (either inside solid plastic, or attached with a strain relief that fixes it).

edit: now that I think of it, Schuko plugs of the install-yourself kind where you can attach cable with a screwdriver (not solid plastic with the cable) are done so that the earth cable is longer than L/N are inside the casing.


So are the British plugs. Perhaps pulling the cord out should be called an extreme failure mode?

(It was probably more useful 20 or more years ago, before moulded plugs were common.)


Most combination Schuko/French plugs I've seen recently are even designed in such way that when all wires are same length then the PE one has larger slack inside the plug.


Right, that's what I meant (i.e. the earth wire sticking out of cable end is "unnecessary long" if it is the same length as L/N).

However, it is very unusual if the cable comes loose from the plug casing.


I'm not really a plug fan, but I did find this interesting! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEfP1OKKz_Q


It is, thanks - I didn't know about the additional leeway of the ground cable thats there by design, simple but smart.


I think they're elegant. The cable points downwards rather than just outwards like most others (US/EU). They have a nice finished edge that's easy to grip rather than a moulded piece of angled plastic.


EU plugs also come in variants that point downwards, without sticking out 3 extra centimeters.

See http://www.netonnet.se/ItemImages/koppla-och-anslut/el/el-ka... and http://media.conrad.com/medias/global/ce/9000_9999/9400/9440... The first one there is the most common plug here actually.


Norwegian plugs must be the UK plug's arch enemy, not grounded until the very last, 2 pins (the ground is on either side of the casing) and the sockets are at 0, 45 or 90 degrees (leading directly to exclamations of "Fuuck!" from this Brit.


What fuse/circuit breaker do you put in the fuse panel with radial wiring? It's got to cope with the largest appliance you'll put on that circuit. With British plugs, a low-current device such as a lamp should have a 3 amp fuse, so it blows before the thinner 5A-rated wiring to the lamp melts.

The problem with British plugs though is the rectangular pins. Mechanically, it's simpler to get a good large contact surface area with a circular pin in a circular socket. You do sometimes come across UK sockets which have been slightly damaged and get hot because the contact resistance is no longer negligible.


You're right. We should change an established, proven design to make it prettier. I don't understand why it's taken so long for someone to speak out. Stop the presses!


You're right, when MrBuddyCasino said "I think this design is better than that design", he clearly meant "we should get rid of that design".


Chinese win. Hands down. You can plug nearly anything in to them. http://imgur.com/dgT2mjk

Of course, there's no guarantee what your reward will be, and they maybe aren't the safest.


Very rarely, I miss having reaction faces on HN. Here is a Chinese wall socket, quite a looker:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#Chin...


Very safe theoretically, but in practice (with Malaysian UK-type plugs, full disclosure) I've seen people casually shove pens and even metal spoons in the ground to force the socket to accept their ungrounded laptop plug.


I have done that, when I was young and stupid and didn't have a UK compatible plug. I have also witnessed a many people doing it.

You can also trick it by doing a sort of dance with te plug where you partially force in the ground, then one live, then you spin it and put the other one in.

The day we have USB wall sockets can't come soon enough.


Eh, USB carries data, not just power. I don't trust any USB socket that I don't control.


Use a charge-only cable.


I would have to tell my phone not to believe everything some house computer (on Earth or Bespin) tells it. At least with USB, my phone is less likely to mistake the power plug for the data plug, because it's all the same.


> Things like not being able to stick things into the line/neutral holes unless the ground pin (which is longer) is inserted make them very safe, and the plastic lower part of the line/neutral pins to stop you accidentally touching something that will have current running through it until the plug is safely inserted is inspired.

Same in Australia, of course you can still go off an buy and Apple Laptop charger with no ground.


I don't know why you singled out the MacBook charger.

The relevant Australian Standard (AS/NZ 3820, I think?) tells you an electrical appliance doesn't need to have an earth pin if it's double insulated, which the MacBook charger, and the stick blender in my kitchen, amongst others, are.

Source: I'm certified for Electrical Test & Tag in Australia.


They are however no safer than Schuko plugs, which are significantly less annoying.


We used to use Schuko plugs here in Ireland, but switched to type G plugs for convenience and trade reasons back in the '60s. I think my grandparents' house still had some Schuko sockets about the place.

Personally, I'm not too bothered either way. I don't find either any more or less annoying as they're both pretty bulky, unless you're using Europlugs, which lack most of the benefits of Schuko plugs.

Still nothing compares in its awfulness to North American plugs. Aussie plugs are similar, but they had the good sense to tilt the prongs at an angle to give the plug better mechanical stability.


I consider Schuko plugs to fall somewhere between the british and the swiss plug. It certainly is a little too big for what it does, and also hard to unplug. That 16A rating is nice, though.


Schuko plugs are a pain in the ass, because more often then not they require brute force to unplug them (or even just plug them in). Also doesn't help the lifespan of powerstrips.

Being able to plug them in ungrounded Euro sockets is handy, but also makes them less safe.


This is because Post-WW2 UK houses were wired as one giant ring circuit, while in the rest of the world there generally was a fuseboard with every fused circuit connected to a few sockets. This saves wire (copper) but requires every plug to have a fuse.

I do not now if modern UK homes are still wired like this.

In modern times the individual fuse still makes it safer, but it is also one of the reasons UK plugs are so large and clunky.


They definitely shouldn't be.... IANA electrician, but as far as I am aware UK regulations require separate power and lighting circuits and a proper distribution board with RCBs.

And while our plugs may be clunky, I kind of prefer them to the wobbly, spark emitting two-pin plugs that I seem to come across in the US...


Obviously the US plugs are the worst, but thats the price for being the first. PAL was better than NTSC, too.


Being first is no excuse! Britain (and empire) used to use an older design, the current design was introduced in 1947.

India (and other places) still use the older standard, BS 546. That's also used for things like theatre lighting in the UK.


They needn't have been so bad: one small change--tilting the pins at an angle--and they could've been mechanically sound like Aussie ones.


NEMA 5-20 is exactly that. It's somewhat less common, due to the fact that it implies a 20 amp supply. Most plugs and sockets use the 15 amp version.


Aussie plugs are more like NEMA 11 plugs: the prongs are angled to form two sides of a triangle.


You mean NEMA 10?[0] All I can dig up for NEMA 11 are motors.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector#NEMA_10


You are indeed correct.


I'm not sure the order these were conceived, but it may be that there was already a plug with a similar configuration.

http://www.jmjwebsitedesign.com/cdpro/wp-content/uploads/201...


That's some panoply of configurations! It's a pity the most common configuration is the worst of them.




Consider applying for YC's Fall 2025 batch! Applications are open till Aug 4

Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: