As a non-US person I've refused to tip in the US (well, left an explicit 0.10$ tip so they know I didn't forget) when getting really bad service before. While it was probably considered rude I have never had the wait-staff chase me like I was promised by some travel sites.
I would never try that sort of thing with an officer attempting to solicit a bribe though :]
I have. I went to a Chinese buffet in Raleigh, North Carolina, with my family. We finished eating, went to the cashier and paid, then we left.
As we were getting into our car the 'waiter' who had sloshed lemonade into out glasses ran up loudly complaining that we hadn't left him a tip. Why such people should be tipped is beyond me.
Anyway, I further insulted him by handing him a single dollar bill, with a smile.
I left a $10 tip at a Chinese buffet I frequented in Finland to a friendly waiter. They insisted it covered payment for my next lunch. Finland doesn't have strong tipping culture, but it still felt strange for a restaurant to outright refuse a tip, especially a foreign one :D
Offering a tip can even be considered offensive. Something along the lines of "You normally do a very poor job, can I bribe you to at least try this time?"
Your point stands about tips being considered offensive, but isn't avoiding that rationale part of why tips almost always follow the service in question? I understood one possible reason being that people want their (hopefully diligent and appropriately generous) service to be seen as the default, rather than something worthy of an additional reward for any special treatment.
> Because that person is paid $2.50/hr for their work.
This is an illegal wage according to federal minimum wage laws. I can't imagine the GP commenter should be responsible for labor law violations beyond reporting it to the relevant local agency. Many states go even farther, requiring the same minimum wage (excluding tips) even for tipped employees, but the federal law already requires minimum wage including tips.
FYI that reads as extremely rude and uncaring to me as a US person, to the point where if you kept doing it I wouldn't be comfortable being friends with you.
Unless by bad service you mean something like spitting in your food or calling you a slur, you should just consider a 15% tip a part of bill for anything where you sit down and have food brought to you. 20-25% for good service.
Tipping culture in the US is very weird. I would rather have the prices be 15% higher, and not tip. Otherwise, where does it stop? Do you tip bus drivers? Nurses and doctors? What about teachers? Why not tip at the grocery store? Perhaps you should leave 15% of the flight ticket as a tip to flight attendants?
People should get paid decently, and not rely on tips to make a living.
It really is weird. I arrived at a hotel with a small bag. I checked in to the hotel and tried to carry my bag to my room. A staff member was all awkward and kind of took the bag off me to carry it 10 steps to the lift then 10 steps to the room.
They then walked into room and wouldn’t leave until I realised it was about the tip.
It’s basically a standover extortion at that point.
Unfortunately the US has a tipping culture enshrined in law. So businesses can legally pay their employees who may potentially receive tips far below minimum wage.
Not all states have a different tipped wage. I am from one of the states that doesn't have a different tipped wage. Servers get paid at least the state minimum with many making at least $15/hr. However, due to the majority of the country having tipped wages we are still expected to tip 15-25%.
People cant separate the cultural expectation of tipping from the reason the expectation exists. I find it mildly infuriating that the reason tipping exists isn't even present in my state but I am still expected to tip.
Sure, in theory that'd be ideal. In the mean time your refusal to accept the way it works in the country you're visiting only hurts service workers. That's why I said I personally couldn't be the friend of someone who does it.
I genuinely rather avoid any establishment that expects tips than feel obligated to pay tips. It does mean that I will never go to a restaurant or similar establishment, but the feeling of being obligated to pay some unsaid price just disgusts me. Either you say it upfront of there's no deal.
Some people avoid taking a holiday or business trip to India, because they don't like the constant harassment from street traders, the expectation to barter and bargain for everything, the ever-present concern that they're either overpaying or being ripped off.
Some of these people also avoid travelling to the USA (and Canada) for similar reasons. Am I supposed to tip for this? Is this a $1 tip, or $5, or 15%? But the card terminal is giving a choice of only 20% or 25%... and is it better to leave cash anyway?
(I'm sure you could explain every situation, just like an Indian can explain all the situations in India.)
You are describing a Hippie taking a holiday, perhaps.
I am in India and I never bargain, hate the pressure. You never have to bargain unless you are in a known tourist trap places, wanting to buy trinkets.
In my experience (which is a decade out of date for India, admittedly, although the point was more about the USA) being white makes me an obvious tourist, regardless of the situation. Any initial price will be 5-20× higher than an initial price you'd get.
Fixed price markets and services like Uber are a welcome improvement, but there are still plenty of recent articles (mainly blogs) aimed at tourists concerning bargaining in India.
("Hippies" on holiday in most of Europe don't have to bargain.)
> But it is clearly known up front. It's not printed on a sign, but neither is the rule you can't spit at the waitor. Both are clearly socially known.
I've lived in the US all my life, and I'm still confused at when tips are required and when it's just a nice thing to do. Even order-at-the-counter places now ask for a tip (often pre-filled to 15%) at checkout. Are their employees being paid below minimum wage? I don't think so, but they know it's ambiguous enough that they can exploit the weird culture around tips.
Where is the line for when a tip is required? If I pick up my food at the counter but they clean up the tables when I'm done, are those employees making less than minimum wage? If I order at the counter but someone brings me the food? The sit-down restaurant with a dedicated waiter is the easy case, but it's not the only case.
There are a ton of ambiguous edge cases, and many, many restaurants are deliberately exploiting the uncertainty. The whole thing is a mess, and I totally sympathize with Europeans who get confused and just give up.
(Not that it's okay not to tip as long as we have this confusing mess of a wage system. You just can't say that it's an easy social norm to understand and follow.)
Then you need to find a different country to hang out in. Much like you would if you felt that covering your genitals was a needless cultural construct that disgusts you.
Tipping culture in the US will never change unless millions of customers suddenly stop paying tips. When millions of customers stop paying tips at the same time if puts the pressure on establishments to start paying their employees fair wages. Customers should go on tip-strike
Tipping culture in the US will never change unless millions of customers suddenly stop paying tips. When millions of customers stop paying tips at the same time if puts the pressure on establishments to start paying their employees fair wages. Customers should go on tip-strikes.
There's no plausible scenario where some sort of mass collective customer driven action requiring coordination is going to be effective.
Tipping culture will change when restaurants change their compensation structure.
A restaurant can commit to paying the team a fair wage, include the costs in the menu pricing, prohibit tipping, and loudly market that it's what they are doing. It's happened in many places and it works. Danny Meyer in NYC seems to be doing pretty well with this plan for example.
Depriving the least powerful people in the whole equation isn't a solution. Lobby the business owners who actually make the decisions.
The people hurt by your actions are not the ones making the decision you're objecting to. As such, refusing because you think it's morally wrong that American bills are spelled weird is amoral to me.
> are not the ones making the decision you're objecting to
No one is making this as a decision. Restaurant owners that have tried to put in place a no tipping policy have customers tip anyway because Americans are uncomfortable not tipping. They then think, somewhat accurately, the restaurant has high prices. We are stuck with a bad system.
It's not a bad system, per se, but is a poorly documented system.
There should be a note on American menus that says "We underpay our staff, so 15-20% tipping is expected." And European menus should read "We compensate our staff sufficiently, so tipping is not expected."
In reality, both of these are never written out, and everyone is expected to learn them culturally. Which ultimately leaves tourists in an awkward spot.
In France, bills usually say "service compris" which means "service included".
In Britain, bills usually say "Service charge" or "Service is included" [1]
But I think these are exceptions, and I wouldn't expect it in general -- just like it doesn't say "Service included" when I buy a buy shoes in France or Britain, even though the staff usually have to fetch them from the stock room.
> There should be a note on American menus that says "We underpay our staff, so 15-20% tipping is expected."
I was recently in a restaurant that had exactly that. There was a fine print note at the bottom of the menu explaining that because a state law prevented servers from splitting tips with the kitchen staff, a 3% surcharge would be added to the check so that non-tipped staff could "earn a living wage".
* In reality, both of these are never written out, and everyone is expected to learn them culturally. Which ultimately leaves tourists in an awkward spot.*
It does more than confuse tourists, it locks every restaurant into the system whether the owners wish it or not. That’s why I think the “we underpay” with its pejorative tinge is inappropriate.
It's somewhat disturbing that paying someone a reasonable price is a question of morality rather than jurisprudence. If you left establishments in other countries having payed 20% less than was on your bill, it could well be a matter for the police (in practice of course if it was a small absolute amount, perhaps they wouldn't bother the first time you did it...).
Interestingly, people have been (wrongly) arrested for not paying tips in the US. They were quickly released, but I think that misconception indicates how strong of a norm paying at least something in tips is.
In the short term yes. But that is exactly what the industry and employers rely on.
Long term, tipping just means these employers can compete for labor against other (non-tip) industries forced to pay higher, and without having to reflect that additional cost in their prices to the end customer.
The idea that the employer is the one getting the tip is a myth, and a well bolstered one for obvious reasons.
Tipping culture in the US will never change unless millions of customers suddenly stop paying tips. When millions of customers stop paying tips at the same time if puts the pressure on establishments to start paying their employees fair wages. Customers should go on tip-strikes.
Exactly, because a tip of 15% isn't a nice extra it's a part of the worker's expected wages.
American workers who can't receive tips in practice don't need to be paid the minimum wage, for example. (In theory there's a process to correct if theyre still below it after tips, but in practice that's regularly flouted).
I am genuinely perplexed by your position that failing to give a tip for mediocre service is amoral, yet failing to pay someone a living wage is just kind of expected.
Honestly, American restaurants shouldn't even bother putting prices on the menu. Between the tipping culture and the taxes it's impossible to guess at the true price of an item.
People behaving like you distort the market, stop rewarding bad service!
I usually tip generously but bad service deserve a 0.1$ tip. They choosed to work in the restauration industry and they should know that tip is given for good service, so they are suppose to know that if they want the full salary, they should provide some minimally adequate level of service.
If they don't like this they can work in another sector, if the USA is anything like Canada, big boxes shop like Wallmart and BestBuy are hiring in almost every locations. Those place are more apropriate for service worker that don't want to actualy serve the customer.
Tipping a fixed percentage, regardless of the service, is the closest I can get to opting out of this bizarre and unreasonable practice without being an asshole. I am happy to distort a market which should not exist.
Companies not paying their workers normal wages should be considered criminal. They're just trying to avoid having to pay additional taxes and social security, by paying workers lower salaries. Companies expecting workers to be paid by tips should be fined, and customers should not agree as they're complicit in tax evation if they do.
> you should just consider a 15% tip a part of bill for anything where you sit down and have food brought to you
It's not that simple. I fully agree that in cases where the establishment is allowed to under-pay, it's our job to tip. But I've lived in the United States all my life, and there are still enough edge cases in the restaurant industry alone to be terribly confusing. That doesn't even get into questions of barkeeps, hotel staff, taxi drivers, and whoever else.
What if I order at the counter, then I sit down and someone brings me the food? Are the employees who bring me that food making less than minimum wage? How do I know one way or the other?
Even more confusingly, order-at-the-counter restaurants have started asking for 15% tips at checkout. I'm relatively confident that they're not building tips into the wage structure, but how can I be sure?
It's definitely not the fault of the workers that this system exists, but it's a horrible, opaque, and confusing way to do business. At a minimum, restaurants should be required to make it explicit when their employees need the tip.
But that isn't how it works here. You're effectively saying your principled stand against the "system" (which changes nothing) is more important than making the person who served you get paid non slave wages. You went into an establishment that you knew had cheaper prices because staff works for tips and you didn't tip. That makes you a bad person. Sorry not sorry.
You can't say "you went into an establishment with cheaper prices and knew this was a requirement" when there is no actual choice - it applies everywhere as far as I've seen; it's not like I can pause my business trip to the US and go to another country for lunch.
in that vein, is there a list somewhere of American eateries which pay non-poverty wages and therefore adopt tipping practices which are less morally reprehensible to us foreigners? I'd happily go out of my way when in the US to avoid this particular cultural norm.
Technically, all American restaurants are "an establishment with cheaper prices" for purposes of this discussion.
There are really 3 relevant parties here: the restaurant owner, the restaurant staff, and the customer.
The owners have lobbied for and gotten exceptions to most minimum wage laws, to the effect that they can pay their staff under minimum wage, with tipping making up the difference.
Consequently, if staff receives no tips: the restaurant is required to pay them minimum wage (US$7.25 / hr), or applicable local minimum wage if higher [0].
If staff receives tips, the owner is allowed to pay them a much lower wage (don't remember offhand), with tips making up the difference to meet or exceed minimum wage.
Some of this may be changing due to worker shortages, but restaurant margins are always pretty thin.
Tl;dr - restaurant workers make over minimum wage only if tipped
I understand how it works; I'm trying to find a "vote with your feet" solution as an alternative to screwing over poorly paid employees by not tipping. The most obvious way to do that is to favour restaurants where tipping is discouraged.
> if staff receives no tips: the restaurant is required to pay them minimum wage
> Tl;dr - restaurant workers make over minimum wage only if tipped
Your tl;dr doesn't match. According to you workers make minimum wage irrespective of whether you tip (unless the owner breaks the law), and all your tips do is directly offset owner costs.
It doesn't have cheaper prices, it just has misleading marketing. They should be fined for not showing the real prices. If a tip is mandatory there's no real difference from a bribe: you're supposed to pay someone, without it being clearly documented in the price.
I would never try that sort of thing with an officer attempting to solicit a bribe though :]