I had never done any kind of drugs in my life or psychedelics, but took Ayahuasca once with friends who were in the personal wellness space circa 2010.
My experience:
- tastes like mud
- it’s recommended to vomit after taking it, but I felt too self-conscious because we were all together in the same room
- the first part of the trip was wonderful as I spent 2hours in bliss seeing colored lights, I still remember this feeling fondly
- the next 2 hours were bad as I saw myself as a kid alone crying in recess, but it did help me see past trauma I hadn’t resolved yet
- for the following month, I felt 10x more present in my body and alive.
- I got more confrontational which almost got me into fights, but also got me laid
- after 1 month my state went back to normal, this made me sad since I loved my other, 10x more confident self
- it seems the reason it lasted so long is because I couldn’t vomit in the first place, so the “medecine” stayed with me longer
Overall awesome experience and would love to do it again.
Afterglow is a layman's term but tells you nothing of the science. After the high does of amines (serotonin analog) which results in a drastic change serotonin receptor densities. It takes a while fro these receptors densities to return to normal.
DMT behaves as an agonist at both 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C receptors. There is nothing more to the magic than that.
P.S. I have the same experience as being on DMT and I do not take DMT and for some reason I am on disability for it. So tell me again how this is beneficial?
Since you try to bring scientific rigor into the discussion, could you point me to some evidence that the epiphenomal effects of the named condition are clearly merely caused by a temporary increase in receptor densities?
Having taken several neuroscience classes, I think that claim is a gross oversimplification and an overly reductionist take on the incredibly complex topic at hand.
> So tell me again how this is beneficial?
I can't answer that question as I have made no statement about any purported benefits or lack thereof.
> could you point me to some evidence that the epiphenomal effects of the named condition are clearly merely caused by a temporary increase in receptor densities?
When someone takes prozac and tries to stop, they have withdrawal effects. Prozac increases serotonin which increases receptor density.
1. The results of this study are about long-term treatment, not a single dose.
2. The study makes absolutely zero claims about the epiphenomenal effects of receptor site increases/decreases, as far as I can see. That is your interpretation (with no evidence.) Sure, people describe withdrawal effects after quitting a drug that made them feel good, and there might be a correlation with decreasing receptor sites and those withdrawal symptoms, but you have not established any causal links, the main point I asked you about.
3. In the original comment you associated the generally positive effects that the OOP described as a consequence of decreasing serotonin receptor sites. Yet then you make a claim based on this study that decreasing receptor sites cause negative withdrawal effects. It very much seems like those two claims contradict themselves? Honestly a bit confused here what you're trying to say.
> I have been studying neurobiology for 20 years.
Well that's impressive. May I ask what your h-index is?
> 1. The results of this study are about long-term treatment, not a single dose.
DMT acts on the HTR2A and HTR2C receptors. When you activate HTR2C receptors at high levels the nerves respond by changing the number HTR2C receptors. This is called having an "effect of receptor density".
You can read about it in this study: (I know what you are going to say, that this proves one cannot get habituated to DMT But that is wrong adn you will need to read the second study to understand why.
Because drug efficacy changes with receptor density and cellular microenvironment, we also examined the properties of DMT in native preparations using a behavioral and biochemical approach."
One difference was evident in that the 5-HT2C, but not the 5-HT2A, receptor showed a profound desensitization to DMT over time. This difference is interesting in light of the recent report that the hallucinogenic activity of DMT does not tolerate in humans and suggests the 5-HT2C receptor plays a less prominent role in the action of DMT.
Furthermore, abnormal receptor density ratios are strongly associated with positive and negative symptom severity, which are typically assessed using the Scale for the Assessment of Negative Symptoms
In addition, Hurlemann et al. (2007) proposed that 5-HT2A receptor density was also decreased in the At-Risk Mental State patient subgroup, regardless of conversion to psychosis [4]. The progressive decline in subcortical 5-HT2A receptor density could provide an indicator of conversion to schizophrenia.
> That is your interpretation (with no evidence.)
That is what is called a hypothesis. Do you ever have an original insight or do you just walk around nixing creative thought because no one ever thought of it before?
I mean you focus only on the study and you cannot see the connection because you so myopic.
> Well that's impressive. May I ask what your h-index is?
It is people like you who keep science in the dark ages.
I cured my schizo-affective Bipolar disorder without medication. What have you done?
I see in another comment you said you cured your schizo-affective Bipolar disorder without medication. Do you mind if I ask how you did that? I have a condition (probable personality disorder with extreme anxiety) and I've been taking methadone to get off of opioids for about 4 years now, and I noticed that when I go down on my dose, my symptoms start to flare up. So in essence I'm keeping it in check with the same class of drugs I was using to self-medicate with. I have done DMT and it did do wonders for me (went from daily suicidal ideation to almost no suicidal thoughts in almost a decade) but I think there has to be more.
Why? I mean I can make up all the stories I want, right? I can call myself a shaman or a mystic, but no one cares. But you get McKenna tripping out wholly on drugs and somehow he is special and knows everything?
I know my worth but no one cares, they will not listen to me because of my overly creative mind. Very few people here can understand the connection I make.
It made me a better person because it had to. It forced me to self reflect. Why do you all need drugs to do that?
If the phenomena is complex even when the mechanism is glossable, you are missing out in descriptive detail when you imply it is "just" an agonist on those receptors. That itself should be mind-boggling. You have those receptors in your stomach.
Interesting read, but you would think that resolving some of that past trauma that was hidden would allow you to transition into a state that isn't your old "normal", but a nice halfway between your arrogant 10x present self and your old self chained by trauma.
Perhaps this experience when bundled with a professional could have great impacts that are permanent, as long as you don't start fighting the therapist I suppose! The opposite could also happen, I don't know. Would be interesting to see studies on this.
I am fascinated by this stuff and DMT and part of me would love to try it. It appears most people experience the same entities such as the self-transforming elf machines. I read another transcript where somebody met their intergalactic girlfriend and the absolute bliss of their reunion and how it felt like they have known each other for hundreds of years.
I believe whats happening at a certain level all brains encode an abstract conscious reality-stream in a similar way, and as such distortions to the brain manifest in similar ways for everyone. The fact that DMT entities are so common tells us that the perception of other consciousness's is a primitive attribute in however our world-state is managed by the brain. Flip a few random bits in an image, you get pixels. Flip a few random bits in the brain, you get conversations with entities. The error mode tells you about the data format.
So here's my conjecture. The brain attributes a "spirit" to every object the same as it attributes color and size and shape. Linguistically we use it all the time to reason about cause and effect. "The piston wants the wheel to turn, but it is too tired". Some cultures literally believe in these spirits.
I entertain the idea that spirits are real in a similar sense that our consciousness is real.
Spirit is an emergent property of humans. When we are angry and vengeful the "spirit" of war is possessing "us". We are not our former self and lose quite a bit of control. This spirit is eternal, contagious, cross cultures.
Our ancestors put a name and images on something abstract but we discarded it because it didn’t fit our modern materialist viewpoint.
The fact that schizophrenics can get together and agree that they're all being gang stalked puts serious doubt in my mind that machine elves from DMT are anything close to real.
And some literally don't believe in them. Each person practices their own style of epistemology, usually using binary. "Whatever gets you through the night" they say!
Personally, I think it's fun to dream what might be the case, or what could be some day. :)
I would advice against prolonged use or using it often. I have seen people around me change their behavior irrationally and erratically, and not for the good, as in not being able to regulate their emotions in a sensible fashion. So while fascinating perhaps, I don’t think it is always used responsibly.
This is typical drug "addiction" behavior. I call it a "negative addiction" (copyright me).
In a positive addiction you see the drug that makes you feel better. In a negative addiction, the drug leaves you feeling worse but there is not craving for it. This occurs with drugs that do not affect dopamine or the dopamine receptors.
> I have seen people around me change their behavior irrationally and erratically, and not for the good, as in not being able to regulate their emotions in a sensible fashion
Their hearts have probably changed as well, and likewise, not for the good.
Many would say the same about friends taking antidepressants as IMA, ISRS, ATC… or others DANGEROUS stuff as opioids.
An average 2023 pharma shopping bag is highly dangerous when not used responsibly !
Moreover, DMT does not induce any addiction, which may be a cause of its absence on drug dealers and pharmacorps shelves.
We should celebrate studies of medecines that have a chance to help people without damaging them.
Rhabdomyolysis is associated with a range of medications, drugs and toxins.
Many medications increase the risk of rhabdomyolysis.[12] The most important ones are:[4][9][11]
Statins and fibrates, both used for elevated cholesterol, especially in combination; cerivastatin (Baycol) was withdrawn in 2001 after numerous reports of rhabdomyolysis.[13] Other statins have a small risk of 0.44 cases per 10,000 person-years.[8] Previous chronic kidney disease and hypothyroidism increase the risk of myopathy due to statins. It is also more common in the elderly, those who are severely disabled, and when statins are used in combination with particular other medicines, such as ciclosporin.[13][8]
Antipsychotic medications may cause neuroleptic malignant syndrome, which can cause severe muscle rigidity with rhabdomyolysis and hyperpyrexia
Neuromuscular blocking agents used in anesthesia may result in malignant hyperthermia, also associated with rhabdomyolysis
Medications that cause serotonin syndrome, such as SSRIs
Medications that interfere with potassium levels, such as diuretics
Poisons linked to rhabdomyolysis are heavy metals and venom from insects or snakes.[4] Hemlock may cause rhabdomyolysis, either directly or after eating quail that have fed on it.[4][11] Fungi such as Russula subnigricans and Tricholoma equestre are known to cause rhabdomyolysis.[14] Haff disease is rhabdomyolysis after consuming fish; a toxic cause is suspected but has not been proven.[15]
Drugs of recreational use, including: alcohol, amphetamine, cocaine, heroin, ketamine and MDMA (ecstasy)[4][11]
"Sensible" is a function of the frame of reference (culture, era, religion, profession, upbringing, ingested information/"facts", etc) of the observer.
It's interesting that these Elves never seem to provide any useful, actionable information, especially information that their human interlocutor would have had no way of knowing. Instead it's just vague, mystical fluff.
One take on psychedelics I find intriguing is that instead of providing actual deep insights, they simulate it. While you are high, everything just seems profound and mystical, but there is really nothing there, it is an artifact of the distorted brain chemistry.
I find this makes sense because in my experience, people that regularly take psychedelics do not seem wiser or more insightful to me than people who don't. There is probably some way in which they boost creativity by making thought processes less rigid, which helps in things like music and maybe some kinds of technical innovation.
Just spitballing and I have no particular expertise.
I do not have experience with Ayahausca, but I do have experience with Psylocibin, LSD, Ketamine, Salvia Divinorum, and a few other things. Psychedelics disrupt the Default Mode Network (this has been shown in brain imaging studies), which the brain process which covers internally directed thought, self-reflection, self-criticism, etc, and that this disruption appears to be what helps many people overcome ingrained patterns of negative thinking.
The trouble appears to be that this state of epiphany following a psychedelic experience is not permanent, I have heard figures of six months following a psylocibin experience. Therefore, to keep achieving this affect repeated doses would be needed which may have a negative effect, further studies may tell. However it may provide time window to allow other treatments to work, in the same sense that antidepressants are supposed to be paired with therapy.
I'd always heard that psychedelic experience provides similar effects to a deep meditative experience and thought "well, who wants to do that boring meditation when you can just take a magic potion and be done with it" ? However, meditative and mindfulness practices, for those it helps, would seem to be far more sustainable than any drugs. I have lately been reading The Craving Mind by Judson Brewer, and the RAIN (Recognise, Acknowledge, Investigate, Note) framework it prescribes has been useful in reducing negative ruminations and undesired cravings.
Currently I am completely sober from all substances and am using mindfulness and meditative practice to find a more sustainable path to peace within myself. I have no desire to take any substance which would jeopardise this.
"Many people are experimenting with the drug ecstasy. I heard you say once that a lie is sweet in the beginning and bitter in the end, and truth is bitter in the beginning, and sweet in the end. I have been meditating, but I don't have the experiences people report from the drug ecstasy. Is the drug like the lie, and meditation the truth? Or am I missing something that could really help me?"
It's by no means said that it's a form of insight that helped them. First, that's a self-reported quality, and self-reporting is very unreliable. Second, it's not the only effect that psychedelics have.
Yeah, using this drug to break down the compartments of the brain will lead to increased creativity (which is all hallucinations are, daydreaming on overload), it will not last. And the more you use DMT the more you will need for the same effect.
DMT acts on the HTR2A and HTR2C receptors. When you activate HTR2C receptors at high levels the nerves respond by changing the number HTR2C receptors. This is called having an "effect of receptor density".
You can read about it in this study: (I know what you are going to say, that this proves one cannot get habituated to DMT But that is wrong adn you will need to read the second study to understand why.
Because drug efficacy changes with receptor density and cellular microenvironment, we also examined the properties of DMT in native preparations using a behavioral and biochemical approach."
One difference was evident in that the 5-HT2C, but not the 5-HT2A, receptor showed a profound desensitization to DMT over time. This difference is interesting in light of the recent report that the hallucinogenic activity of DMT does not tolerate in humans and suggests the 5-HT2C receptor plays a less prominent role in the action of DMT.
Furthermore, abnormal receptor density ratios are strongly associated with positive and negative symptom severity, which are typically assessed using the Scale for the Assessment of Negative Symptoms
In addition, Hurlemann et al. (2007) proposed that 5-HT2A receptor density was also decreased in the At-Risk Mental State patient subgroup, regardless of conversion to psychosis [4]. The progressive decline in subcortical 5-HT2A receptor density could provide an indicator of conversion to schizophrenia.
Same here. I've read a lot of them. And I haven't read a single one that made me want to try it. My psyche treats any state as permanent, and I think most of these trips would probably drive me insane. Inb4 I need a psychedelic trip to break out of that psychic mold.
> Inb4 I need a psychedelic trip to break out of that psychic mold.
I literally feel like this could be the case for me. I'm unable to lucid dream because even if I go into it knowing it's going to be a dream, hell even if I go into a daydream, my brain will instantly realize it's seeing or experiencing something and assert that it's reality and there's no need to question it because it is certainly real.
It's so annoying because it affects more than just dreaming, it also makes it impossible for other people to convince me that any of my memories are even slightly embellished.
I can't post the link because I'm at work but you might be interested in the DMT Nexus forum. Lots of trip reports and treasure trove of information related to DMT/Ayahuasca.
The Machine Elves thing is fascinating. I would chalk it up to a sort of culturally shared hallucination, where people have heard of them and are primed to expect them, except for that I had an experience on DMT long before I had heard of this phenomenon where I saw such things... I called them "engineer aliens," I shit you not
I've seen two people go down the Ayahuasca path in the past years and both of them have undergone such profound personality changes that I've had to stop seeing them. They've gone off the deep end in ways that are hard to describe. What also bothers me is that they've become incessant advocates for others to join them in their misery.
This is just turning out to be the acid craze of our generation. We need a PSA.
If you take a heroic dose of a powerful hallucinogen with little prior experience or preparation you stand a chance of breaking your brain. Doing ayahuasca with some unknown "shaman" in a jungle "wellness retreat" is not the same as going to a spa and getting acupuncture. It's more like going skydiving with an "instructor" that just hands you a parachute and says Jump!
Integration work is really important. Many people don't have the help they need to integrate their experience back into regular reality unfortunately. It's a shame, because the effects can be profoundly helpful, but meaningless if you can't continue to function in society. Many people try to bend every day life to a perceivable achievement of a new way of living for "us all". It's normal to realize certain relationships in your life are not positive, it's unhelpful to try and change others.
> Integration work is really important. Many people don't have the help they need to integrate their experience back into regular reality unfortunately.
It depends on what epistemological status you assign to the experiences of the trip. If the trip is access to a different part of you, or a different truth than you normally know, then integrating it is very valuable.
But if it's just random weird things that your neurons do while being poisoned, why bother to integrate it? Should I integrate the experience of having a stroke or a migraine? (On the other hand, in that case why bother to have the trip at all?)
And, is there any reason to suppose that poisoning your neurons should be a source of truth, or even of access to "a different part of you"?
Do you believe it's possible to have a "passive" ayahuasca experience? I don't know the answer. Should you work to integrate having a stroke, probably, a migraine... maybe, as much as smoking a joint? Maybe? I'm not sure.
I think the point being any altered sense of perception of routine in regular reality warrants some introspection, the +/- probably depends on how profound it is? You points are good. different part of you, who knows, some people say you're re-tuning the bring to access new vibrations that show alternative realities and dimensions. Lots of big questions here! :)
I have … “joked” that the mushrooms/plants have influenced their hosts brain in a similar way to some fungus or worm causing a bug to climb up a grass stalk to be eaten by a bird. The level of evangelism can be disturbing, viewed in this light.
Title is a little incorrect, the study was DMT only whose effects only last a short time period. You need the ayahuasca brew which contains other plants including an MAO-I that makes the effects possible via oral administration and also last much longer.
This drug normalisation in media makes me so sad. For few lads with life changing ayahuasca trip there is a hundred depresive and miserable trips, also lasting for months! And if someone dares to speak up, reply is "oh your set & setting was wrong". Drugs are wrong, it's high risk substance with highest probability to mess you up and minuscule to give any longer lasting benefit.
On one paw, I'm disappointed with how normalized, say, caffeine is, and how many people accidentally fall victim to caffeine dependence out of carelessness. In many cases, one's inability to function before their daily cup of coffee didn't exist before they got addicted. (Nowadays people at least know how terrible nicotine is, but most still think vaping it is OK for some reason... but I digress.) On the other paw, I'm also not exactly a supporter of the idea that "drugs are wrong", as you so kindly put it.
(Some people need caffeine to help an existing condition just like some people with ADHD might need stimulants, obviously I'm not talking about that but rather completely healthy people who develop a dependence on caffeine because they think it's completely safe and harmless.)
I believe that proper education about drugs would enable people to use them safely and responsibly—rather than the current situation where pervasive propaganda prevents many people from obtaining the education they would need to do so (also known as "harm reduction"). They can't tell the signal from the noise, so they have to shut everything out, even safety tips that would help them.
Don't get me wrong, not everything you hear about drugs is propaganda. For example, methamphetamine and MDMA are significantly neurotoxic and can wreck your brain and your life very easily and quickly. Heroin is so madly addictive that one often stops being of sound mind once they've taken even a single dose, if it's high enough.
But ayahuasca (DMT), or LSD? They are of course to be respected and used responsibly, but they are not "wrong" in and of themselves. Yes, there are ways to abuse them, and they are capable of facilitating severe mental damage and permanent impairment—but that doesn't mean they're simply wrong, even if they are risky.
You explicitly dismissed this but I want to say it anyway: set and setting matter a lot when you take a psychedelic. "set" represents your entire mental state. It consists of your mood, your hopes and dreams, your anxieties and traumas, your goals, and so on. People who get a bad trip were stung by set. Not because "drugs are wrong".
Psychedelics do not directly cause depression or misery or trauma—they give your brain the capability to create those experiences for itself. They create unrestrained thought and an experience that isn't subject to the usual moderation. Of course you can traumatize yourself on LSD—your barriers are down. You're vulnerable to your own thoughts. By taking LSD you are taking responsibility for what you do to yourself while you are on it, and what mental state you are in when the trip starts.
I think it's the other way around, where synthetic hallucinogens can be fully purified and measured, but brews of naturally occurring hallucinogens depend on how saturated the plant ended up being that time.
But taking a natural brew in a temple or something has a different set and setting than taking a synthetic chemical like LSD. It's also closer to tradition, and promotes the idea that the drug trip is a religious or spiritual experience.
IOW I think the use of ayahuasca over LSD is mainly symbolic, but DMT (as used in ayahuasca) does have its differences (though I do not know them).
> I think it's the other way around, where synthetic hallucinogens can be fully purified and measured
My point was, with synthetics it's still caveat emptor. Natural products have that too - a measure of uncertainty - but without a possible profit motive and without intent to conceal possible incompetence. Woodstock + brown acid.
Opposite. If you take acid in liquid form you have full assurance of the dosage. Then dilute it as you need. With natural substances, idk how about ayahuasca, but say with mushrooms of all sorts it gets to be a real pain: concentrations may vary WIDELY.
Ayahausca and plant medicines are not short cuts, but the problem is a lot of people expect to take these things and magically be cured. They can bring up a lot of difficult things that need to be dealt with.
My experience:
- tastes like mud
- it’s recommended to vomit after taking it, but I felt too self-conscious because we were all together in the same room
- the first part of the trip was wonderful as I spent 2hours in bliss seeing colored lights, I still remember this feeling fondly
- the next 2 hours were bad as I saw myself as a kid alone crying in recess, but it did help me see past trauma I hadn’t resolved yet
- for the following month, I felt 10x more present in my body and alive.
- I got more confrontational which almost got me into fights, but also got me laid
- after 1 month my state went back to normal, this made me sad since I loved my other, 10x more confident self
- it seems the reason it lasted so long is because I couldn’t vomit in the first place, so the “medecine” stayed with me longer
Overall awesome experience and would love to do it again.