No matter what you think is a down-side or turn-off, someone has or will soon make a Web business off of it.

I thought the name was easy to remember, easy to tell someone that they can spell again, and was slightly controversial (as seen in this thread!)

But since I am gearing this towards serious folks I don't think they will act like noobs do and fear overtraining like its some kind of infection one suddenly contracts with after doing one extra set. In fact most of the people I talked to (standing around between sets), mostly people that compete in bodybuilding and power lifting, thought that the name was funny as most people would call what they do 'overtraining'.

Since there are a lot of obviously knowledgeable people here let me ask, do you think you will remember the name now? do you think if it was named some random jumble of letters you would remember it more or less?

Anyway thanks for all the feedback!

No, they wouldn't. Overtraining is a specific thing -- chronic glycogen depletion. It's only tangentially related to how much you work out. It's extremely serious too. One of my friends wasn't allowed to use his legs for several months, so he had to sit on the couch and watch cartoons all day.

Maybe because there is an optimal point in training. Working with weights is about repetition. Too much and you overtire or worse, injure yourself. Too little and you miss out on the benefits.

The thing I would want to know is what benefit I'd get from logging this on a site (with all the associated hassles) compared to noting it in a log book with pencil & paper? Being able to see the results is a good motivational point.

The problem I have always had with these methods is after some time I have a big stack of rumpled papers, too much data really. To evaluate progress I just read through and try to grasp some qualitative comparison. By that point it would be far too much work to sit and enter all of the data into a spreadsheet.

The point I am trying to address is to make a data entry method as easy as paper, but with results you can easily look back on and really compare. The results can also be generated to an image, and then embedded into websites, forums, what have you, to share with friends or to make an ongoing training log.

I am also trying to address the annoyances with planning workouts with spreadsheets. I have done this plenty of times and don't care for it. Usually it involves digging up some template you made for the purpose and manually typing the exercises in, its annoying. So overtrainer.com will also allow you to plan your workout and print a form that you can just fill out, making the process more streamlined.

So if you dont care for anything but paper thats fine! You can still plan your workouts and print the form.

Thanks to everyone for all the feedback, its been really helpful.

Agreed. Doing this by paper is probably dead, spreadsheets so, so. Having a web based alternative is something that compelling if you continue using it. Is there a social side of this? Like working out a gym and comparing weights?

i.e.: "db bench 160, db fly 50, s press 140, l press 650" translates into 'dumbbell bench press 160lbs., dumbbell fly 50lbs., etc. etc.

I know most people at the very least lug around their cell phones with them in the gym, so it could prove to be very useful.

Another term would be 'lifting to failure', which obviously doesn't sound as good/simple as overtraining.

It's understandable you're not within his target demographic and can't relate to the idea, but your comment is rude regardless.

First of all, if you have time to take notes or carry a water bottle while working out, as far as I'm concerned you're doing it wrong. Pick up the pace. It's almost always just porky nerds who have notebooks.

A structured planned mentality to lifting is counter-productive. In terms of how much and how hard to go, you really need to listen to your body on any given day. Some times your immune system really is telling you to take it light and easy and wrap it up in fifteen minutes.

Also, it's most effective to dramatically vary routines and volume/intensity quite randomly from a large repertoire of exercises to prevent habituation. This simply doesn't produce useful time series, so notes are pointless.

Perhaps the biggest problem with a structured and planned approach to exercise is that it's not playful. It's of the wrong mentality to enjoy yourself.

I've logged every workout I've done over the last 14 years. I squat over 300 lbs and deadlift 450 lbs.

My roommate in university was an olympic lifter. The entire team logged their workouts. Serious athletes log workouts.

Also, you should read about high weight dead lifts and spine stress fractures. You are probably damaging your back.

Agreed, but logbooks are not a fitness regimen, they're a simple, useful technique for maintaining control of whatever fitness regimen you pick.

For me, this amounts to a spreadsheet where I track a few variables. Maintaining it takes 5 minutes a day.

I alluded to this above: your body responds best to randomly varying exercise. Both frequency and type. Take a few weeks off. Then work out three days in a row, a completely different form each day. Then twice a week, and so on. Don't work out on a predictable schedule. It pretty much happens if you listen to your body. This just isn't amenable to logs, but it has proven benefits to making fitness durable and affecting lean body mass. You want enough variety in what you're doing that exact volume and weight for a previous given lift isn't clearly relevant anymore.

My point is that the data is just really not going to be all that useful. It's not going to give you any meaningful linear projections. It's not going to tell you whether your body is stressed at a given time. If once a month you want to record your 100m time and how many pushups you can do that's one thing, but tracking each workout is almost surely a waste of time. Just mix it up a lot and go hard when you really feel like it.

In my experience, most successful bodybuilders take a scientific approach to their training. The main variables that affect physique are genetics, diet, and routine. Different diets and routines work for different people, so to achieve the best results it's important to experiment. A log book gives you data to learn how to improve your routine.

Even your point on the importance of varying routines is best achieved by using a log book. Try a steady routine for 3 months and measure your gains. Then try "dramatically varying" your routine for 3 months and measure your gains. Now you have data to support your own optimal workout plan.

Finally, to your point about picking up the pace: most routines involve rest between sets, so if you log while resting then it doesn't slow you down.

What you eat and at which points you eat it, what and how regularly you work out, whether you get enough sleep, and whether you currently have injuries are the most important factors. A fifth factor would probably be whether you have a workout partner to motivate you and spot you, so you always have a spotter, and thus can push yourself harder and get the most out of each exercise.

Genetics also controls things like metabolism and how well you respond to weight training, so you need to adjust your diet accordingly. I do agree with you that motivation and a good routine can create superior results in anyone. I was just pointing out that some people will have to work harder than others, diet harder, or eat more, or whatever.

Also, focusing on genetics ignores the fact that the exercise routines would be different for each person. Without knowing one's own genome sequence, a person who tries to stay active will learn what their body's preference is in terms of exercise. For me, I focused on muscle size. Other athletes focus on weight. Others focus on speed and conditioning. One will figure out which sports their body is meant for soon enough if they exercise regularly. The factors I've mentioned are also ones the person will learn to adjust--not their genetics.

I don't know much about my genetics except that I'm taller than my parents. But I have observed changes in my body after working out regularly. These changes included improvements in metabolism, hunger, body mass, mood, confidence, speed, and posture. My genetics presumably did not change in the same span of time. (Neither are they something I can control.)

So therefore, the person's activity level, amount of sleep, eating patterns, and a stable, consistent, work out routine are what matter the most.

Comparing two different people entirely (in other words, two people with different genetics) is purely theoretical and not practical, as each individual would have had different prior sports experience, confidence level, access to quality foods, knowledge about nutrition, free time, and more. Even if one did somehow match two people with the same activity levels at a given point in time, they are almost guaranteed to have entirely different results in the future for those reasons.

Similarly, two twins with identical genes will have huge differences in fitness if one considers the factors I've mentioned and one doesn't. Also, their metabolism levels, "bicep size", and other body features will be noticeably different.

Genes might cap one's maximum ability: some people have genetic diseases affecting their physical ability, while others have "caps" that are greater than those of other people. But while in the first case it might be easier to zero in on somebody's (physical) limits correctly, in everybody else, it is impossible to tell how strong, fast, athletic, or muscular a given person can be, or what their metabolism will be like, when they're athletic. Progressing from spending 20 minutes exercising, three times a week, to playing sports for 2 hours at a time three times a week, lifting weights for 90 minutes four times a week, and running for about 30 minutes a few times a week, all at once, does not depend on one's genes. Also, I want to point out that it may only be record-setting Olympic athletes who truly get close to their genetic caps, and therefore genetics are not a factor for most normal people.

Finally, regarding bicep size, here is a quote from the first search result on Google:

"Genetics play perhaps the most important part of not only how large your arms can be but also their shape. Now if you are not a genetically gifted bodybuilder do not take this statement as a cause for you to have a yard sale and sell your weights. True, you may not be able to develop a 21” arm but this will not prevent you from sporting an 18” or even 19” well shaped and defined arm and whats wrong with that? A well shaped defined 18” arm is much more impressive than a flat chunk of flesh that measures 21” anyway. It takes a lot of time and experience before one can say for certain any lack of arm development is due to genetics. Dont be quick in jumping to this assessment; its the lazy way out."

http://www.criticalbench.com/armmass.htm

Therefore, a group of average males can confidently be predicted to achieve the same fat/muscle ratio as a group of average females -- as long as their diet regimens, workout regimens, sleep regimens, and ages are the same?

Body building and power lifting routines involve rest between sets. The rest is needed to achieve the volume which induces sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Those guys look puffed up and ridiculous, in my opinion. They're also slow and have diminished hand speed and explosive power. High volume bench pressing, for example, will actually weaken your punch. Capillary density is also reduced and endurance is weakened. Brief and intense routines with very little rest give you endurance, make you fast, lean, and not puffed up.

You routinely see chubby guys lumbering around, resting, and then moving some heavy weights. Every time I see some one going for brief intensity they're ripped, and usually among the strongest anyway.

Firstly, the different between appearing ripped and appearing 'puffy' or bigger is far more about diet and cardio than anaerobic activity. The guys with abs at the gym are far less about practical strength and more about a strict diet and large amounts of aerobic exercise to put them at an unnaturally low body fat percentage.

High volume bench press will weaken your punch? I call bullshit. Tell that to someone like Houston Alexander. Or Rashad Evans tonite, knocking out the best puncher in MMA (and clearly a weightlifter).

Brief and intense exercise doesn't give you very little endurance. Instead, it works your muscles, primarily recruiting fast twitch muscles and improving anaerobic efficiency.

Lastly, if body building/power lifting routines are making you slower and less explosive, why when I was training as a competitive gymnast were we training with large weight/low reps and weighted pylometrics to gain speed and explosiveness?

I always hear talk about 'overtraining' but really I think the huge issue is under nutrition. I trained 20+ hours a week when I was younger as a competitive gymnast and didn't come close to overtraining. Overtraining occurs when serious bodybuilders workout 4+ hours a day, not when you workout twice a week for 30 minutes.

Finally, I find your 'ripped is the strongest' statement ridiculous.

I don't think anyone would suggest 30 minutes twice a week would lead to overtraining. That's a pretty good target, actually. Most people trying to get fit sort of half ass it five days a week, though. I'm not sure over-training is the right word, but they definitely spend way too much time training.

But as far as training 20 hours a week, that's far in excess of any health benefits, which was my point above with regard to not modeling on athletes. Competition level training involves major oxidation and over nitrification stress. Hormone profiles are messed up. Pro and college level athletes are not doing their health any favors.

I will have to disagree with your claim that getting cut is necessarily about aerobic exercise. Aerobics can certainly help, but another way lower fat is via boosted growth hormone. That "oh I'm going to puke" feeling you get from brief intense training is surging growth hormone levels. It makes you nauseous. It also reconfigures your body to be lean.

I thought this whole thread was about bodybuilding. That would be the target market for the app that was posted. I claimed that a logbook is useful for bodybuilders.

Originally I thought you were saying that logbooks were bad for bodybuilders, but now I suppose you are saying that bodybuilding in general is a bad activity. That's a whole different debate. Personally I like the appearance of a lean, muscular, and proportional physique, which is what bodybuilding is all about (not that I've attained this yet, but it's a goal).

> They're also slow and have diminished hand speed and explosive power

Bodybuilding won't slow you down, but it's not the optimal way to develop speed, since it develops slow-twitch muscles more than fast-twitch ones.

I don't understand at all your advocating "brief and intense" routines as an alternative to bodybuilding. Most bodybuilding routines are brief and intense sets, with some rest in between.

Yes it will. I amateur box and getting in the ring with big muscular guys who obvious do bodybuilding style routines is great. They can't flick out fast punches and they run out of juice inside three rounds. This is well researched.

Your other points are equally useless personal opinion.

My other points lack citations, but they aren't useless opinion.

And my notes are useful 10 years later. I can see progression, and the comment "allergies bad today" will explain why I cut sets short, etc.

That said, I wouldn't use software to do this. My clipboard served me well for years.

Sorry, I don't find that to be true at all.

A typical session's data includes 6 exercises, 4 sets each, weight and rep count for each set, so 48 numbers altogether, all related to each other in different ways. Plus I like to keep notes in the margin like "grip the bar wider" or "slower negative movement".

If you can create an iphone app with a user interface that makes it really really easy to enter workout data, then I think you would find a large market. I payed for gyminee.com because I thought it might deliver this, but the data entry was still too annoying. The built-in Notes program on the iphone was actually better.

Also, as other people have mentioned, "overtraining" has negative connotations, so I'm curious why you picked this name.

Best of luck. I think this is something people want.

I was a college football player and could put 375lb above my head, squat over 500lb and bench press 225lb over 30 times.

That said. That is not health, but damage.

Unless you can move your own body weight efficiently what is the point in lifting metal.

Try Tai Chi or some form of movement that works on integrating the control of the entire body. Almost all weightlifting is isolating muscles and detaching the control of the muscles from each other.

Muscles are also one of the weakest parts of the body structurally so strengthening them does little for the overall strength of the body, which is only what most weight lifting succeeds in doing . There are better ways to strengthen the joints and bones and tendons and ligaments.

First, lifting weights does strengthen bones via Wolff's Law. Second, lifting also strengthens tendons and ligaments, but probably not the kind of lifting you did for football. To strengthen these, you'd do something like 4 x 100 squats with 115lbs, ass to ankles.

Weightlifting of almost all forms generally promotes overall tension in the body, which, in my opinion, is not a good thing.

If you're trying to throw a baseball, lifting might slow you down, but you won't be able to throw a 2k disc very far, and pitchers aren't very good batters either. The top discus throwers in the world all have huge lifts, and we all know what muscles do for batting.

But all this is off-point anyway. The thread starter just wants peeps to beta for him. If you don't like to lift, or you don't like to keep a journal while lifting, don't beta test.

Maybe to some extent. Adding muscle mass to your body increases your metabolism, which is a good thing.

The weakest part of the body is bullshit. The strongest parts are the bones but that because they are structural elements and nothing else. The most you can do with bones is stand upright (and even that only after very careful balancing). If you want to actually do anything, you need muscles. Furthermore, bones can not apply any force without muscles. Even in soft martial arts like Tai Chi which use the weight of the entire body, muscles are needed for control. Furthermore, even in Tai Chi, strong laterals and abs are an absolute must because all movement stems from the hips and is supported by the thighs. Without these two, you are screwed.

Lastly, while Tai Chi works on integrating the control of the entire body, it also tries to make the user aware of all the individual muscles in their body.

You only need the muscles to position the body. Structure and grounding toward the earth is the source of strength, not actual muscle exertion. If you can properly use your body you will not need the muscles for more than position, not resistance.

Real speed and strength comes from complete relaxation and not tension, which weight lifting only promotes.

The problem, in my eyes, of current weightlifters, is that they believe that they are healthy because they can lift certain weights under certain conditions. Move to a different context and that "strength" does no good and generally is a detriment both to coordination and to speed.

Let me add that this is from a martial artist perspective. Of course muscles are needed to do work like climb a mountain or such, but your are better at growth trying to climb that mountain than some form of gym weightlifting activity.

and then

"Real speed and strength comes from complete relaxation and not tension, which weight lifting only promotes."

May we assume, then, that now that you don't lift weights, you can squat and bench more? No? Maybe it isn't a good idea to use "strength" to mean something other than what everyone else means by it.

The strength I am referring is the strength of the "climb a mountain" type or the "move from point A to point B in the most economical way" kind or the "take on an adversary much stronger than myself" kind.

On the speed side, for example, weightlifting, as it is popularly promoted, slows down the body. The biceps and the triceps work against each other and unless you can properly relax the countering muscle your intentions will be dampened. Weightlifting generally promotes tension in all muscles, thus a general slowing down.

/end sarcasm.

Your biceps and triceps must work against each other or you will have no control over what you're doing.

Sounds like you've fallen under the influence of quacks.

You were previously talking about "strength" rather than "health". At least, you used the word "strength," so I assumed that was what you meant. If you meant to be talking about general health, then that's very different, and I don't have much to say on it. :)

The fastest man in the world, Usain Bolt, uses weight lifting as part of his training routine - as do elite athletes in almost all sports (with a particularly important role in those requiring high levels of strength and speed).

Bias against weight-lifting is unfounded. Most other options do not provide the bone-strengthening that weight lifting does.

In support of your point, however, there is also the joint stress of weights. Kettlebell lifting addresses this via static lifts and swings that strengthen the joints.

You can also get a decent cardio benefit from fast-paced kettlebell swing movements.

a) I don't track the numbers, I know what I lift without writing it down.

b) Overtrainer is a bad name...as mentioned. Over training almost never happens and has a bad stigma. People have difficulty getting TO the gym, not staying away.

c) I don't see it solving a problem. How many people do you know that say 'I wish I could have better charts of my lifting amounts'? Or 'I wish I didn't workout as often'.

Sorry for the negative feedback, but it's sincere.

BodySpace on bodybuilding.com, which does this, currently has over 200,000 active members - so quite a few actually.

Sorry about the ambiguity!

We are talking about two different things. I was power lifting which involves different workouts than total-body or body-weight exercises, for example. For the most part, though, the morning was reserved for cardio and very little lifting, mainly just some body-weight exercises.

40 minutes twice a week isn't nearly enough unless you're not looking for very good gains.

Your page seems to only have a sign-up for notifications, but doesn't send a response...

BTW - I've been looking for, and even considered developing, an iPhone app like this. Most are made for runners and calorie-counters, not work-outs.

1) Is your start-up one that would help me, new and inexperienced? If so, I'm interested, providing:

2) Do you need people testing that aren't particularly skilled at working out?

Either way, best of luck with your app.

Thanks

One difference between the two groups is that the former hasn't gotten past the "most people quit after 2 months" stage. Is that more of a need than better recordkeeping is for the latter? (Successful first products tend to be painkillers, not vitamins.)

So far I only handle run/walk/swim/bike/sleep/heart/weight but I want to get into weights.

If there are other people who like overtrainer, great. However, right now the only feedback is negative. Until you've got more, you're wrong.

EDIT: sorry, realized i forgot my contact info and emailed you instead

I'm definitely interesting in testing out the app. I have given a lot of thought to this. I used to work for pumpone.com and know a few of the issues.