> First, only one party in this "deal" has a full understanding of what the deal
consists of and the endless cruelties and indignities inherent in it.
These "endless cruelties and indignities" exist in one way of farming only, the
factory farms found in modern industrialised nations and spreading slowly like
a rot throughout the world as we speak because capitalilsm is a disease that we
don't know how to cure, like cancer.
But for most of our history, there were no "endless cruelties and indignities
inherent" in farming, as there aren't any still in much of the world today.
Below are a few examples.
Goat farming in Chavignol (to make Crottin de Chavignol AOP):
Those are from European countries that I'm more familiar with but you can find
similar practices in most of the world, although they constantly at risk from
large agribusinesses that want to take over the farmers land and business.
More importantly, we have only been able to domesticate the animals we have
because of their character and because of our character, and while there was no
formal agreement, because a formal agreement can only be made between humans
(because it needs language that only humans posses) it is very wrong to say that
animals entered their contract with ours unwillingly. We have only been able to
domesticate animals that allowed themselves to be domesticated: we have not
domesticated zebras, for example, or tigers, or hippos. And we have only been
able to domesticate animals because we ourselves, like our domesticated animals,
are a gregarious, sociable species, that is kindly disposed towards other kinds
of animals and has a natural instinct to care for them and tend to their needs.
A lion could not domesticate sheep: it would just slaugther the entire herd. A
weasel could not domesticate chickens: it would just strangle the entire flock.
We were able to do it because we are, by our nature, as a specias, capable of
caring for other beings than ourselves, even for beings of another species than
ourselves. Which I think is most clearly seen in ideas like "animal liberation",
albeit taken to extremens.
> Second, the terms of the "deal" have changed tremendously for both parties
since it was first "signed" (that is, when humans and animals first entered into
the symbiotic relationship of domestication).
This is true. Absolutely, 100%, heart-breakingly, infuriatingly, shamefuly true.
But again this is because of the modern practices of factory farming that
threaten to destroy our bond with our domesticated animals, this "mutualism"
that Michael Pollan speaks of. Rather, to dig deeper still, the name of the
culprit is capitalism and it's the result of the extreme distortions that it
causes to the very mechanisms that sustain life on the planet, themselves. That
is where the shame and the crime and the horror come from: capitalilsm. And the
sooner we realise the mess we're in because of this inhuman economy we have
created, the better we'll all be. Unfortunately, before this happens, everything
we have achieved as a civilisation and as a species will be destroyed.
No need to apologize, I appreciate the thoughtful (and passionate) reply.
To clarify one of my points: when I said the terms of the deal have changed I didn’t mean just for animals. The existence of plant-based alternatives for every type of animal product has also changed the terms for us. We no longer need domesticated animals, even if we maintain our agricultural ways.
I also agree with you about unfettered capitalism but I am not sold on the idea that the treatment of animals outside the capitalist system is a utopia. I have seen how animals are treated in developing nations (Cuba and Morocco come to mind) and it’s ugly: scrawny donkeys whipped by their masters. Live chickens bound to one another by their feet next to a heap of dead chickens in a market. Etc.
When it comes to the kindly attitude some farmers have, yes, I’ve seen this myself. My family still eats meat, I ensure we buy it from local farmers like that. I think many of these people feel sad about killing the animals when the day comes, but they justify it with rationale like, “well, there’s no way around it”, or, “that’s the natural order of things”, “people need to eat”, or whatever. But today, in 2021, those rationale are not accurate. There are ways around it, there are other options, and humans are no longer part of the natural order.
You're right that animals are not only treated inhumanely in CAFOs, I have seen
that kind of thing too. Even simple things, like killing a chicken before
cutting its throat seem to never cross some peoples' minds. It's a different
problem that has to do with education and generally standards of living and I
think in the end it all loops back to the main reason that some people lack
basic education, not to mention many other material needs: capitalism, again
(and now I sound like a broken record). But again that's not the case
everywhere. It is possible to raise animals without causing unnecessary
suffering and it does happen, around the world.
I think we agree on the need, or the want even, to minimise suffering. Maybe we
disagree on what that entails? I think that small-scale farming can achieve
this, which of course means that much of the world will need to eat much less
meat and even (gulp!) dairy products than currently.
I don't agree that we're not part of the natural order, but that's a bigger
conversation I think.
Yeah, thanks for the level-headed discussion also.
These "endless cruelties and indignities" exist in one way of farming only, the factory farms found in modern industrialised nations and spreading slowly like a rot throughout the world as we speak because capitalilsm is a disease that we don't know how to cure, like cancer.
But for most of our history, there were no "endless cruelties and indignities inherent" in farming, as there aren't any still in much of the world today.
Below are a few examples.
Goat farming in Chavignol (to make Crottin de Chavignol AOP):
https://youtu.be/WPeasWmx1og?t=157
Goat farming in Corsica from a maker of Brocciou (pronounced broo-CHOO):
https://youtu.be/EftGyQXyDlo
Cow farming in the France region of Jura (to make Comté, AOP):
https://youtu.be/U0D_a_o9wcQ?t=100
Cow farming in Normandy (to make Camembert de Normandie, AOP):
https://youtu.be/0by1csFhtQg
Goat farming in the Greek Cyclades islands:
https://youtu.be/L6g0xn5TLtE?t=48
Sheep farming in the Greek island of Lesvos:
https://youtu.be/kRptFUO_uzM
Sheep farming in Transylvania:
https://youtu.be/Bcuaf_y_TWg?t=9
Those are from European countries that I'm more familiar with but you can find similar practices in most of the world, although they constantly at risk from large agribusinesses that want to take over the farmers land and business.
More importantly, we have only been able to domesticate the animals we have because of their character and because of our character, and while there was no formal agreement, because a formal agreement can only be made between humans (because it needs language that only humans posses) it is very wrong to say that animals entered their contract with ours unwillingly. We have only been able to domesticate animals that allowed themselves to be domesticated: we have not domesticated zebras, for example, or tigers, or hippos. And we have only been able to domesticate animals because we ourselves, like our domesticated animals, are a gregarious, sociable species, that is kindly disposed towards other kinds of animals and has a natural instinct to care for them and tend to their needs. A lion could not domesticate sheep: it would just slaugther the entire herd. A weasel could not domesticate chickens: it would just strangle the entire flock. We were able to do it because we are, by our nature, as a specias, capable of caring for other beings than ourselves, even for beings of another species than ourselves. Which I think is most clearly seen in ideas like "animal liberation", albeit taken to extremens.
> Second, the terms of the "deal" have changed tremendously for both parties since it was first "signed" (that is, when humans and animals first entered into the symbiotic relationship of domestication).
This is true. Absolutely, 100%, heart-breakingly, infuriatingly, shamefuly true. But again this is because of the modern practices of factory farming that threaten to destroy our bond with our domesticated animals, this "mutualism" that Michael Pollan speaks of. Rather, to dig deeper still, the name of the culprit is capitalism and it's the result of the extreme distortions that it causes to the very mechanisms that sustain life on the planet, themselves. That is where the shame and the crime and the horror come from: capitalilsm. And the sooner we realise the mess we're in because of this inhuman economy we have created, the better we'll all be. Unfortunately, before this happens, everything we have achieved as a civilisation and as a species will be destroyed.
Sorry for the rant.