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AskHistorians seems to believe pretty strongly that this letter never happened, which may be obvious to people familiar with the story, but I'm hearing it for the first time in the context of this HN post. :)

A good thread on the history of, uh, stern Russian responses to threats:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/e1qciu/in_re...



Hmm, I'm not terribly convinced by those comments that the letter never happened. The justification that it's "not historical" comes from someone saying it wasn't mentioned in a summary of Ottoman-Cossack diplomatic relations, but there were many letters between the two sides during that time. It simply wasn't mentioned in the summary, not explicitly mentioned as fake. Absence of evidence and all that. Furthermore, there's not a huge gap between the time of the incident in 1676 and the earliest version of the letter we've found so far, in the early 1800s. 100-some years sounds like a lot of time, but things happened slower back then; it took 11 years just to paint the painting.

Finally, even if this particular letter is "not historical", we do have other, substantiated letters from the Zaporozhians to the Ottomans with various insults, and the painting was created with the help of historians, so the painting is fairly accurate even if the exact letter may have been a slight exaggeration of other contemporary letters.


It doesn't seem like there's major doubt that the Cossacks sent a rude retort to a surrender demand, but rather that these responses have become folkloric and are embellished over the generations to the point where there's little truth left in the actual words.


>It doesn't seem like there's major doubt that the Cossacks sent a rude retort to a surrender demand

There's no doubt that they did that. We have multiple documented responses, some of which are quite witty I'll add. (If you remove the old-fashioned tone of voice from the translations and speak them as someone would today, even the drier ones can be fairly amusing.)

There are also embellished or fabricated responses even in modern times.

The question is - which of those is this letter? I don't think we can rule out any possibility based on the information we have available. We simply have a gap of a hundred-odd years in which we can find no surviving written evidence that people talked about it. I don't think that's evidence enough that it didn't exist.


The issue here might be the fact that the Wikipedia article is about the painting, but includes a purported text of ‘the letter’ - presumably of the letter in the painting - but there’s no citation given for where that particular text is sourced or it’s translation.


No, that's not the issue here. There are various texts for the letter going back to the 1800s. The issue is that there is no record of the letter between 1676 and the 1800s, causing some Redditors to believe it was a fabrication of that time.


I mean, it's the issue I was bringing up with my comment, since the Wikipedia text of the letter seemed implausible, apparently for good reason. :)


Ah, my bad, I misinterpreted your comment.


> If you remove the old-fashioned tone of voice from the translations and speak them as someone would today

I think that's almost wholly because of the the "thou", which was added to distinguish from the polite plural "you", but maybe it shouldn't have been. I doubt anyone would have mistaken "fuck your mother" for the polite plural.


Does the exact content really matter that much though? There was a letter, it was rude, they had a lot of fun writing it…


For historians it matter, which is why the discussion is on AskHistorians.


I'm not terribly convinced by those comments that the letter never happened.

Agreed. There's a lot of unwarranted skepticism by both real, and wannabe history experts these days. Even events from last century that were heavily documented in books and scholarly texts are sometimes called fake by people on the internet because there isn't a web link to the material.

It makes me sad when I see the library throwing out reference books, knowing that most of that information will be gone forever, and the people who know its contents will never be believed.


Note that the people in r/AskHistorians are actual historians, or people knowledgeable enough of the subject to source their claims.


It's Reddit. There is no way to gauge user competencies and most of them suffer from acute Dunning–Kruger effect. I wouldn't trust anything read there as more than mere theories. It can be convenient to find serious resources (books, papers) but most of the content is garbage.


It is AskHistorians, a very strongly moderated sub-reddit where comments get deleted if they can't show valid sources. The discussion is much higher level than here on HN.


*Ukrainian

Edit: misread context- kneejerk Ukrainian > Russian correction. Although I’d still want it clear that this is Ukrainian history more than Russian.


I don't think that's "X history more than Y history" a correct way to argue about history :-)

It's definitely a fair to name that Ukrainian history from your perspective. It's a also fair to name that Russian history.

A lot of people could argue that is specifically Cossack history, because Cossacks could be viewed as separate ethnicity with their own history.

Somebody will say that's Russian word is correct, because "Russian" is umbrella term for both velikorossy (Great Russians) and malorossy (Ukrainians) :-)

But it's definitely fair from modern Russian perspective and from modern Ukrainian perspective to claim this history as their own.


Looks like we have perfect nicknames for commenting under this post.


At that point in time Russian-Ukrainian history was tight knit. It is after Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth influence of Western Ukraine did what I assume your understanding of the difference between Russia-Ukraine's history start.


Referring to Zaporozhian Cossacks as Russian is quite a stretch, and sure to upset Ukrainians. Cossacks generally are a part of Russian-Ukrainian history, but this group has typically been considered Ukrainian, based on their geography and ultimate integration into Ukraine.

In truth, the Zaporozhian Cossacks were their own people, to classify them as strictly Russian or Ukrainian somewhat erases their culture and history.


But I didn't say that Zaporozhians are distinctly Russian either, just that at that point in time the divide between Ukraine and Russia was a lot less clear. People who drive a hard line about differences of these people, especially in those times, are usually politically and/or ideologically motivated and have barely any knowledge of the historical context.

You're absolutely correct that the Zaporozhians were somewhat of their own people, much like the Don and other groups of Cossacks - which can be seen in them uprising against the Polish-Lithuanian rulers and the Czar respectively and trying to form their own states. I wouldn't go so for as to say that they aren't part of Russian-Ukrainian history either, just that claiming for them to be the same as modern Ukrainians or modern Russians makes as much sense as modern Greeks claiming to be direct descendants of Alexander the Great.


> claiming for them to be the same as modern Ukrainians or modern Russians makes as much sense as modern Greeks claiming to be direct descendants of Alexander the Great.

don't say this to either of the macedonias :)


So how about 'le mot de cambronne' or the reply from the battle of the bulge? ("nuts")


*Rus


*Rus'

Русь


If you can read Russian, I suggest looking in the excellent Russian Wikipedia article about the document: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Письмо_запорожцев_турецкому_су...

TL;DR the letter most likely is an 18th century Russian translation/modification of a typical 17th century Polish anti-Turkish pamphlet which was taken as genuine by 19th century Ukrainian nationalists.


They don't claim an insulting letter never happened, just that the quoted text is not authentic.




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