Not going to happen anytime soon. There's too much money at stake.
Not only do the PC makers make money from bloatware; the vendors (BestBuy in particular) also makes money from offering to remove the bloatware when you buy a PC (laptop). I was at BB and the salesguy offered a deal ($30?) to "optimize" the laptop after purchase, and remove the bloatware.
To paraphrase a saying, "if a man's paycheck depends on him not understanding something, you can bet he won't understand it".
Reminds me of the Supermarket business. Supermarkets aren't retailers, they're landlords in the business of renting space by the shelf-foot and they're also in the business of renting display advertising and signage.
We seem to be transitioning away from PC manufacturers being in the selling a PC business and are towards being in the software distribution business.
Yup, and it is not just supermarkets. That's also how it worked at places like Egghead and CompUSA, and I expect how it still works at places like BestBuy. The manufacturer can have their distributor simply get the product into the store, and it goes on some bottom row in the darkest part of the store, will never be featured in a sale or promoted in the store's newspaper ad, and so on.
If you want anything more than that (good position in a row that doesn't have a homeless camp in it, a featured position in the store's ad, and so on) you pay for this.
This is one of the reasons Windows 95 totally killed OS/2, even though on every technical level (including the ability to run Windows programs) OS/2 should have won. Microsoft paid for ads. Microsoft paid for end caps with Windows 95. Microsoft chipped in to help software developers who wrote for Windows 95 afford store ads and end caps.
IBM was content to just shove OS/2 into the store, let it sit on the bottom shelf in the back where even someone who went to the store with the express purpose of buying OS/2 would have a hard time finding it. That and IBM's complete disdain for developers is what killed OS/2.
The mail order computer catalog businesses also work this way. When you read the entries for a given product in catalogs from different sellers, they are often nearly identical. That's because the item entries are not written by the catalog company. They are ad copy written by the product's vendor. When a product gets a quarter, half, or full page in a catalog it isn't because the catalog company thought it was great and wants to push it. It's because they thought the big fat check from the vendor to their ad sales department was great.
An Open Letter To PC Makers: No matter what you do, I will never trust the software you put on my machine, so I couldn't care less what bloatware you package or don't package; I'm reformatting first thing anyway. Thanks for finding this clever way to make my machine cheaper off the back of someone else.
The bloatware companies wouldn't pay for inclusion if it didn't generate sales; "off the back of someone else" in this case means the non-tech-savvy users who have a crappy experience because they don't know any better.
Well, the last laptop or two I've bought have come with Windows licenses such that I found it easy to install from scratch. Although I know some manufacturers won't ship a real Windows install DVD (I may have grabbed one from my workplace instead, I don't remember), I have yet to see one that doesn't put on a little sticker with the license key.
Don't limit this call to action to computer configurators. Handset manufacturers and mobile carriers are just as guilty of this. AT&T has a suite of apps that charge fees for what most handsets can do for free out of the box. Samsung removed default Android widgets (notably, Google Calendar) from their Galaxy S line so that users would be coerced into using their widgets. Verizon V-Cast. I don't mind if they make these things available. I dont' even mind if they're marketed to users in ways that don't violate my privacy and aren't spam, but to install them by default and bar their removal is unforgivable.
I don't really care about bloatware on a computer -- at least I have the option to remove it or reinstall, or even install another OS. Every time that City ID app pops up on my Droid telling me that my trial is running out I am insulted. Like anyone is wants to pay a monthly fee for a buggy, less functional caller ID -- and if I don't want it, well too bad because it's just going to sit there taking up space because the carrier thinks they have a captured audience.
Sure I can root it but why should I have to void a warranty to remove this crap? The wireless industry in this country is a joke. I'll take my free McAfee trial, thanks. At least the OEM and software vendor have a measure of respect for the end user.
Microsoft needs to take charge of it and make it such that people can revert to fresh copy of windows. Formatting the computer is an easy solution but then why should I ditch out 100+$ on a windows license. The first thing I do when I get a PC is to format it but none of my friends do and later ditch windows. I won't be surprised if all the hate about windows being slow and resource hog exists because of these bloatwares.
What exactly would Microsoft's motivation be to remove a revenue stream from their OEMs? It would be like Google requiring all Android phones to not have carrier supplied software by default. Both would be nice, but this installed software makes the difference in profitability.
Windows users not ditching windows for OSX would be primary motivation. And I was not suggesting Microsoft should not allow them to add bloatware but to allow an easier path for user like me to revert back if I want. Currently, I have to find a install CD and do a fresh install. I am just hoping there be a way where everyone is happy.
This is wrong. Consumers don't care. 90% of people who buy PCs from the major manufacturers probably don't even know what it is. (Some even think it's a good thing when it's advertised as "Comes with free 2 month subscription to X Security Centre")
Hackers/Programmers etc don't want bloatware, but we are a minority. Personally I usually build my own PCs. On the odd occasions when I buy them pre-built (or when I buy laptops) I format and reinstall the OS when it arrives and in these cases I am quite happy that the cost of the hardware has been subsidised quite nicely by something that only requires me to quickly reinstall to resolve.
I regularly get requests for advice on PC buying and from non-techies the question normally goes "Where can I get a cheap [PC/Laptop] that will let me use [internet/facebook/email]". As soon as I hear "cheap" I just direct them to a the current big PC supplier. They don't care if it takes 45 seconds to load the desktop, they just want to 'friend' people and tag photos.
I‘m not sure. When my fiancée asked for help in speeding up her computer (a Compaq laptop) I ended up uninstalling a bunch of bloatware. She knew that having too much stuff installed was the root of the problem, but she was worried that removing stuff might break the computer in a way she wouldn’t be able to recover from.
In the end seeing as it was running Vista Basic I took the ultimate step of removing the OS as well and putting on Ubuntu, which she was much happier with :)
You can't blame the pre-installed bloatware when the PC is old. It's slow because it's old. It's gone through update cycles and has had software installed that slows it down.
(The whole question of windows needing occasional reinstalling is another issue)
Consumers lack the context to communicate their issues in a technically correct way. My parents don't complain about bloatware, they complain about having lots of warnings and popups they don't understand showing up every time they sit down at the computer. They don't complain about increased boot times, they just say their computer is "slow".
I've got people coming to me to "repair" or do something about their computers all the time. It has gotten so bad that I actually have a teeshirt saying "I won't fix your PC".
Consumers care, they just delegate this particular task to others.
So please PC manufacturers, save my life because I can't take it anymore.
They don't care if it takes 45 seconds to load the desktop
Except that in my experience it takes 5 minutes on average (between power-on and being able to work).
I don't know who came up with that "45 seconds" figure, but it's totally bullshit.
It's bad enough that such software is totally useless, but it also keeps upgrading and harassing you to restart, as if it is reminding you that the app totally exists on your computer and it's useful (look, it's doing totally important stuff in the background, restart now or later?).
I reboot my Mac about 3-4 times a year
I reboot my Linux once every 2 days (when the battery runs out, I shutdown as I've had surprises with hibernation, even on OS X). But my desktop is loaded in 20 secs or so.
Just to be clear, we are talking about new PCs here. Not ones that are 2 years old that the user has loaded with rubbish themselves. Do general users really ask you to "repair" their brand new PC?
Right. Or if consumers do care, they care about the subsidy more. If consumers preferred paying more to buying bloatware-subsidized machines, there would be more on the market. Consumers increasingly care about one thing only: price. See Wal-Mart.
It's not really subsidized anymore if you format the computer and install fresh copy windows. Unless of course you have some way of getting free windows copy.
You are right. Most PC's have the license sticker on the back. I get free windows products so didn't really remember using them when I do a fresh install.
I have to agree ... this kind of thing that comes to characterize a PC in the mind of the average user and when they try an Apple, its an instant win when all these confusing items aren't immediately cluttering their notification area and desktop.
Though I remembered that my MacBook came with a pack of games and OmniOutliner, and my wife's with Quicken.
Sure, it's not really bloatware and more like freebies, but it's good to remember that Macs don't come perfectly clean either and that Apple gets paid a little too.
I've purchased probably close to a dozen various Apple machines (MacMini's, MacBookPro 17, MacBook, MacBookPro 15, MacBook Air) in the last ~4 years and have never had anything come on them besides OS X, iLife, iWork (which I don't consider bloatware, plus they're easy to remove if you want).
Directly from Apple both times, ~6 months apart from each other. Note that this extra software was pre-installed and on the Mac OS install DVD, not coming as a separate box/DVD. It would have been very easy to miss it and, again, I don't consider this bloatware.
I imagine the iWork you mention was the trial version of it, right? Not bloatware to me either since you're not bothered to upgrade like you might be with pop-ups for anti-viruses on a Windows PC.
I think the iWork install was a full copy, I don't remember for sure, since I use iWork (and not MS Office anymore) if it wasn't a full license I would have bought a license almost immediately anyway.
I also forgot, FWIW, I bought an iMac for the kitchen/wife's home computer, and that didn't come with any crapware either.
When was this? I purchased an iBook in like 2000, a Macbook in 2006, an iMac in 2008, a MBA in 2009 and I've never had Quicken or OmniOutliner. The iBook came with a few games, but it wasn't what I'd consider bloatware at all.
The last time this kind of thing was being analyzed in detail, Apple's market share of the PC industry was insignificant, but it earned something like 35% of all of the profit of all PC manufacturers combined.
Anybody care to chime in with some citations supporting/refuting this?
But it's a little confusing. It says Apple's unit share is between 4% and 5%, but what they call its profit share is its share of revenues, which depending on how you count seems to be 20%-25%. Given that Apple's profit margins are higher than PC manufacturers, Apple's share of the profits has to be higher than its share of revenues.
This is actually astounding, it's the opposite of what you might naively assume: In most markets, you would expect the revenue leader to be the one with the lowest prices and thinnest margins who tries to "make it up on volume."
Apple has either slightly more or approximately the same revenues as Dell and HP, while selling half as many computers at (obviously) higher prices and higher margins.
The 20-25% number is for US only and that too for home computer sales only. While I agree with you that Apple is doing great because of the higher profit margin and increased sales, I still won't call them a winner until they have at least 50% profit share.
Let me see if I understand you correctly: There are dozens or even hundreds of PC manufacturers competing with Apple and they are only winners if they have 50% of the profits in the market?
Is that your metric for "winning?"
You asked other people what they mean by winning. If you want to have a productive conversation, I suggest you ensure that your definition of winning matches theirs. Otherwise, there will only be confusion.
I think there is a difference between entire Apple as a company and Mac. I don't think anyone can deny mobile/music devices are what is driving Apple stock values.
Yeah there is no denial that Apple is doing great but it's far easier to gain a 23% increase when you have 4-5% share than gaining a 10% with 95% share.
I don't think most people (myself included) realized you were asking a sincere question. Usually one-liner questions with that.... tone are snarky replies and not genuine questions seeking genuine clarification/answers.
Just a suggestion, but if you try to flesh out your queries a bit more you may find them more likely to be answered. Not your fault, but when every other poster is being ironic/sarcastic/sardonic, you have to take the extra step to make sure you're not mistaken for one of them :)
I was serious because I did not find my parent comment to be adding anything. I even added "sorry" to indicate I honestly wanted to know. I guess it made it worse. Would blame ESL :)
Yeah, definitely a miscommunication issue. Without the "sorry" it would have come off normal, but depending on the tone and inflection of "sorry" to native speakers it could either be complete sarcasm or genuine bewilderment. But the default here would be the former :)
Removing crap is actually all too easy. Deleting the application removes the app. Deleting the Library/Application Support folder for it removes the preferences. If you want to get fancy, AppZapper will scrub all trace of it. That's way better than any "uninstaller" type app I've seen.
For a new install, it's pretty easy: Rip consumer apps out of dock, delete apps you'll never use, load in MacPorts, compile a bunch of stuff, runs some installer packages, set up your shell environment, tweak preferences in various apps. Done. Usually it's 2-3 hours tops and you're ready for anything.
PC manufacterers aimed at the mass market are on a tight margin. Bloatware is a where they get most of their profits. If someone offered bloatwarefree PCs (ad added an extra €50 to the price) would they be able to compete with the bloatware PC sellers?
I think they would be operating in a limited market. However, if bloatware free PCs were offered with a range of other options e.g. pre-installed OS of your choice at no extra charge (and therefore a discount if not having Windows), recycling program for old PCs/laptops taken away by the courier who delivers you new machine etc. Then I'm sure it would be popular within the tech community at least and therefore could make money.
This is one thing I don't get. Why is there so few "premium" Windows PC manufacturers that try to compete on quality (I can think of one, maybe, Lenovo)?
Is it because they're all running the same OS and making better hardware doesn't offer enough differentiation?
Some are competing on quality (Panasonic Toughbook is an example.)
Some even try to compete on product design (HP Envy?), but they fail to match up to the attention to detail that Apple is known for. My guess is that they have outsourced most of the process to their suppliers, which means that they have less of an influence on the design details. Apple spends a huge amount to keep an in-house design team that not only does the superficial design, but also the layout of components, figuring out which materials to use and how to use them, etc. From the film Objectified: http://vimeo.com/7827217
For instance, all PC laptops have a big external power supply with long cables with some kind of velcro strip on order to tidy the cables It's been like this for 20 years. Apple probably uses the same internal components in their power supplies, but they've designed one with a nice magnetic connector, a detachable power cable and nice "hooks" for winding the cable. They've had this design for at least 10 years. This is probably not a deciding factor when people buy a laptop, but it's a nice design detail that Apple decided to spend the money on developing, whereas other laptop manufacturers never thought about it. Or, more likely, a lot of designers have thought about it and has have had their ideas axed by the business CEOs.
I always thought the magnetic connector was patented; otherwise it's shocking that more manufacturers don't use it - I've seen laptops ruined by a single "tripping" incident. Also, I have to sheepishly admit that the magnetic connector was what pushed me over the edge into buying a MacBook.
I'm pretty sure that they would have been able to come up with another non-magnetic solution if they wanted to. But it would take a lot of money and manpower to come up with a good alternative and test it.
A less elegant solution is the breakaway cable used on the original XBox controllers, which would detach while leaving the "main" connector still in the laptop.
Yep, this is why I always buy Lenovo notebooks. Great customer service, no bloat added on (except Thinkpad line), and I can diddle around quite easily with out any gotchas like other manufacturers.
They run Linux and FreeBSD kernels really well with all hardware components working out of the box as well. Compared to my last experiences with Dell and HP, I'm sticking with Lenovo and Apple for good.
It's also odd because the various PC makers add all these "features" to their machines to try to differentiate them from their competitor's machines, when at this point the best way to differentiate themselves would be to just sell a plain-jane machine with no proprietary "features".
When you compete in what is viewed as commodity business, many people simply check it has their minimum features and buy on price. Apple is viewed as selling something different. I would guess that someone could build a brand around Linux and do the same thing, but "build my own" tends to conflict with "premium". Check any comparison of a hackintosh to an actual Mac and then see how it would work if instead of OS X you were talking Linux.
Apples and Oranges. Apple do not let other manufacters sell OSX. If they did, surely you'd see people adding little apps to the preinstall image and undercutting Apple. Apple clearly don't want this, so they disallow it.
Windows and OS X are substitutes, that’s what makes this a fair comparison. You would have a point if Windows wouldn’t even be an option for those who ultimately buy Macs and if OS X wouldn’t even be an option for those who ultimately buy PCs.
Also: What stops PC manufacturers from creating their own OS? (Obviously not from the ground up but they could create a Linux distro ála Ubuntu.)
The easiest way of getting rid of bloatware is to just format the drive and install a fresh retail copy of Windows. It’s astonishing how well that works.
I recently tried that with a cheap Compaq laptop (that’s a HP brand) which comes with loads of crap. When you install a fresh copy of Windows, it is clever about which drivers it needs to download and everything just works. Special buttons, sound, Bluetooth, wireless LAN, webcam, SD card slot, you name it. I didn’t have to hunt for one single driver.
You obviously need a fresh copy of Windows and I’m not aware of any computer that comes with one. (All this is assuming that you want Windows and not Linux.) I’m a student and get Windows for free but others are not so lucky. Reinstalling the OS is not really a practical solution for the average user, anyway, but it is illustrative of one thing: The manufactures wouldn’t have to do one thing – just ship their PCs with Windows as is — and there would be no more bloatware.
With Windows XP, you simply need the license code from the sticker on the machine and a "plain Jane" MS installation disk borrowed from someone else. (You have to match your license type with the appropriate disk, Home or Pro.)
The last time I bought a Dell, for $10 I could and did add to the order just such a disk. This was in addition to the crapware-laden "recovery" disk that came with it by default.
I haven't done a Windows 7 installation (nor Vista), so I'm not aware of whether this still applies. And the last time I helped someone shop / potentially place a Dell order, I didn't find an option to receive a such a "plain Jane" MS installation disk.
If some variation of the above still applies, my recommendation would be to use another machine to download the machine-specific drivers from the vendor's web site -- assuming they are available. Then, when the machine arrives, do a fresh install from an MS install disk, first thing. Well, maybe turn the machine on first and use it trivially for a day or three to make sure it doesn't have a physical defect. But don't start customizing it in a way you'll regret losing, until you've reinstalled.
As you describe, such a reinstallation can take a miserably "compromised" machine and turn it into a delight to use (if Windows is your thing).
Oh, also have your anti-malware suite ready to install, post Windows reinstallation, BEFORE you plug the thing into a network connection. (Yes, I recommend using one, especially for most/normal people.)
(As for all the "free" programs that come amidst the bloat: TANSTAAFL. You're better off just installing what you need, picking what you really want and/or, where they are the best or your demand is marginal, free programs.)
You state the problem right in your second paragraph. New PCs don't come with a Windows retail copy. They come with a factory recovery disk that reformats your hard drive, and reinstalls the OS and all the bloatware for you, just as it came out of the box.
If you want a fresh retail copy of Windows 7, unfortunately, you actually have to buy it, which adds about $199 onto the price of Windows. At that point, you're better off buying a Mac, as the price advantage that your cheap budget PC gave you by bundling the bloatware is easily cancelled by the additional Windows license price.
You get better software and better hardware with the Mac, plus a bloatware free and virus free experience. It's a win/win.
Not always true--the Dell I bought just last month came with the OS and the bloatware on separate discs. I formatted the computer using the OS disc and it was a totally fresh version of Windows 7 with not a trace of bloatware in sight.
Though I'm pretty sure they used to do what you described in the past, so I wouldn't put it past other manufacturers to still do it!
IIRC (I may not), I do seem to recall reading that with Windows 7, there is more of a distinction between full/retail and "OEM"/recovery disks. I guess, another lever they use to justify/raise the fees from the crapware vendors.
EDIT: Perhaps I should have said / mean "licenses" rather than "disks".
Better software, perhaps. But show me where I could've bought a Macbook with a Core i7 and Nvidia 360M graphics last year when I bought my Asus laptop for $1300.
Surely they can just download a copy somewhere, the whole point of software is that you buy the license, not the actual code, right?
If you bought a PC and it came with Windows, then you should have a windows license (and associated product key or whatever) so reformatting should be fine.
All the laptops I had in the last years came with recovery partitions and you could only use them to reinstall the OS. I once downloaded a copy of XP Professional (illegally) and tried to enter the key that was printed on my ThinkPad, it didn’t work.
Maybe I was doing it wrong, I don’t know, but I couldn’t get it to work. I always had to rely on keys I got from elsewhere.
If there is some way that would be great but still not exactly solve the problem. Can you download Windows ISOs directly from Microsoft? I don’t think so. You might have a key but I don’t know of any easy way to get a Windows copy without paying.
The reinstallation disk I mentioned in my other post was stolen in a burglary. A couple of months later, I really needed to reinstall my Windows XP Pro machine. A friend volunteered to send me a burned copy of his Pro disk. It worked just fine.
(With the disks being stamped wholesale, I don't see too much wrong with this. Stealing the license code / functionality -- that would have been another matter.)
I know I had problems with XP, but with Vista and 7, I haven't had an issue just using an OEM disk with the key on the sticker. Activates and receives updates without a problem.
That's why my first order of business when opening a new computer is to flatten and reinstall. Usually manufacturers seem to include their bloatware on a separate recovery disc, leaving the OS disc fresh.
I always offer to do this for my family members too as soon as they buy laptops, because if I don't, I'll inevitably be on the receiving end of calls like, "acabal, why is my laptop so slow, I only just bought it last month, does it have a virus?!?!"
Why does everyone assume that bloatware profits get passed down to the consumers? And how much money vendors get for this anyway? It might very well be a matter of several dollars per PC.
Actually in the Japanese OEM market (and remember, many PC manufacturers are Japanese), extra bundled software is huge - customers demand as much bundled software as possible, and a machine without it wouldn't sell.
You should see all the crap that's installed on a Japanese laptop, it makes the American ones look completely spartan. I personally think it's bizarre, the machines are unusably slow, I pave mine as soon as I get them
A related issue is the fact that many drivers show up in the Add/Remove Programs list (or whatever they call it these days), so you can't just remove everything or you will find that your keyboard, touchpad, media card reader, etc. no longer work. Sometimes it can be really difficult to determine if a program is an essential driver or useless bloat.
My simple solution: Insert Ubuntu CD and format the drive. Still bloatware is a practice that should just stop. It's like you would buy a car and everything is packed with cheap toys and IKEA furnitures.
Actually they do that too... I was surprised the last time I saw a newly-bought PC laptop at the number of random stickers all over it for the video card, OS, whatever.
I bought a few netbooks a year ago, I had to spend over an hour uninstalling all the bloatware -- I had a farm of them on my coffee table running the uninstallers on each simultaneously.
Instead of just complaining, why don't these guys review the machines as-delivered, with the bloatware in place? That would give the potential consumer an idea of what there up against.
Not only do the PC makers make money from bloatware; the vendors (BestBuy in particular) also makes money from offering to remove the bloatware when you buy a PC (laptop). I was at BB and the salesguy offered a deal ($30?) to "optimize" the laptop after purchase, and remove the bloatware.
To paraphrase a saying, "if a man's paycheck depends on him not understanding something, you can bet he won't understand it".