I think having kids is scientifically proven to make you unhappy and greatly increase your stress levels. It’s no wonder people just put off having kids until they can, or pass on having them altogether.
I have less than five kids, but more than one kid.
My kids cause me a lot of stress. The burden of knowing I have to deal with them and their energetic, ridiculous antics every day when I get home really drains me. I don't really have time to exercise anymore because from sun-up to sundown I am dealing with them, so I'm slightly overweight and out of shape in a way I was not before I had kids. My diet isn't as diverse as it was before I had kids either because I can't go to the same places I used to or take the time to prepare what I used to prepare. I've stayed in the job I have now for longer than I should just because I worry about keeping a steady salary, paying my bills, and caring for my kids more than I ever worried about those things before. I don't spend a lot of money on self-care or personal enjoyment anymore because I need to save it in case something goes wrong and I need to spend the money on them.
Am I less happy? YES. I am less happy than before.
But if I was given the choice to go back, I wouldn't. I wouldn't even consider it. Not even for a millisecond. I don't know why and I really don't need to know why, but having kids is just better than being happy. I don't want to be happy, I want to be a good dad. It's true that being a parent makes you less happy, but it also makes happiness irrelevant (for the most part). It probably has something to do with evolution.
Well, you have to make time for things you want to do. What we have done raising our kids is that we have one parent going to the gym, the other one is taking care of kids. You can do it if you are committed. Do not give up!
Yes, it is rewarding to be a parent at the end of the day when they fall asleep. :)
My wife and I have two kids, we are both in the best shape of our lives, eat better than before, and our kids are quite healthy - participating in gymnastics, volleyball, and roller derby.
I could pay for a nanny or childcare of some sort for portions of the day and allow myself to focus on things like food quality, exercise, etc. I prefer to sacrifice those things to be with my kids whenever I am not working because I think it is important for me to invest that time now when they are most impressionable. But that preference isn't something I seem to have much control over. It's what I think is right, so I do it. I guess I could choose to do what I think is wrong, but that doesn't seem like a choice as much as a character failure.
Also, my kids are very young. As they get older, I expect to have more time. The early years are the absolute hardest in terms of time. It does get better as they get older and have activities to participate in outside the home.
Do not judge too harshly... it may not be personal choice.
Life is hard as parent but a variety of things can exacerbate problems such as: both husband and wife working, work place requires long travel, age gap between children, having children with special needs etcetra..
> But if I was given the choice to go back, I wouldn't. I wouldn't even consider it.
There's a speech in the movie Parenthood [1] that expresses a lot of what you just said. With a kid (or kids), the highs are higher, the lows lower. Some want to be on a roller coaster, others are happier on a merry-go-round.
The highs are higher, lows are lower idea seems right. And a lot of the value comes from that. Life in more real, more genuine when you aren't as insulated from pain and joy.
It's very complicated. Having kids at home makes you less happy (because they're work). But men who have had kids are significantly happier than men who never had kids once the kids are out of the house: https://ifstudies.org/blog/does-having-children-make-people-...
> By the time the 2016 survey rolled around, fathers were 40% more likely than childless men to see themselves as very happy.
By age 45, 86% of people have had kids, and only 6% of those wish they had not had kids. By contrast, out of those who didn't have kids, more than half wish they did. Even more remarkably, among all adults age 45+, as many people wish they had five or more kids as wish they had no kids (11%).
There is pretty much no other life choice (college, career, etc.) that almost every body does that almost nobody regrets.
It's very socially unacceptable to admit you regret having had your kids. Even to an anonymous stranger conducting a phone poll.
I am much more inclined to believe studies that ask for self-reported happiness and compare to life events / states like childlessness without directly asking "do you regret your kids". From what I understand, having children is negatively correlated with happiness in those sorts of studies.
> I am much more inclined to believe studies that ask for self-reported happiness and compare to life events / states like childlessness without directly asking "do you regret your kids".
Did you reply to the wrong comment? That's why the parent poster led with this quote from IFS:
> By the time the 2016 survey rolled around, fathers were 40% more likely than childless men to see themselves as very happy.
> fathers were 40% more likely than childless men to see themselves as very happy.
That part of the study is about the same fathers who are now aged 50-70 and whose children have generally left the house and are no longer children.
I guess if you see it as in investment for future happiness when you're old, you can interpret it as "children make you happy", but not if you prefer to be happy now and over the next ~18 years.
It's like saying college is an investment for when your old. You may have loved learning about new things, but still rather not have to do a bunch of meaningless homework assignments,
You can actually enjoy being a parent immediately and simultaneously not like all the sacrifices. IT's a deeper kind of commitment. For some people, it's the first time they have actually loved something more than themselves. It's hard to express.
The "science" you're referring to shows that parenting makes people less "happy" in any given moment while doing it and more "content" overall, more "satisfied" in older age. Moreover, there are significant country-by-country differences in these stats that seem to be tied to availability of high-quality, low-cost childcare and healthcare. One place to look for some overview of some of these studies is https://contemporaryfamilies.org/brief-parenting-happiness/
Probably referencing the use of the phrase "scientifically proven" and doubting the assertion being made and that there is in fact "science" that backs it up.
I think the intention is a quote rather than a scare quote.
It's a little awkward to quote a single word like that. In that circumstance the following words "... you're referring to" serve the same function. But it does highlight the notion of "you were looking for science, here is science".
I feel as though having children will make a lot of people very happy. But there is also a significant part(>1%) of the population that would be miserable.
I believe a lot of the unhappiness is often from someone who was pressured into a choice they didn't critically think about or didn't want but caved in. Even if the pool of people is small the experience could be quite negative. Where as all the people who always wanted them will be happy.
I took care of my brother and sisters a lot as a child and it made it very clear that I never wanted children.
There are a lot of things I didn't enjoy as a child that I enjoy as an adult. Raising children is different than caring for siblings, no disrespect to your personal choice.
Plenty, my wife is a nurse and plenty of the women explain how they had one and then just never wanted another one after because of regret. The nurse closer to her age straight up says it. I got plenty of warnings from coworkers about having children and most of their wives pick up most of the slack. If you are gushing about your kids no one is going to open up about a taboo subject like that.
That is just one of the many reasons I don't want kids. I have plenty of functional health issues that make keeping on weight a chore never mind a pain free day and yet again that is just the tip of the iceberg.
People with kids love to complain about how terrible it is to have kids. But when you poll older people who had kids and ask them if they’d “do it over again” nine out of them say they would. Meanwhile, more than half of people who never had kids wish they had at least one. (See the Pew polling I linked above.)
My original post agreed with the Pew data. Most people would most likely be happy having children.
I am aware of this bias. My Grandmother in law is blunt about never having wanted children where as lots of people are just complaining due to stress. That is why I give more weight to people who have fully raised children and are no longer stressed out by them. My anecdotal evidence is similar to Pew.
My boss complains all the time but I know he doesn't regret it even thought he looks like he got hit by a train some days.
I prefer to focus on regret rates among childless men with vasectomies who had their operation after the age of 31. I say this because not having children =/= not wanting them at 45. There could be a lack of money, a partner, fertility issue etc that could all lead to this situation.
==If you are gushing about your kids no one is going to open up about a taboo subject like that.==
This is true. Likewise, if you are explaining all the reasons you can't or don't want to have kids someone may be more likely to agree by saying "I wish I didn't have kids."
I don't disagree with what you have said, just know that taking care of your siblings is not the same as being the parent of a child (legally, emotionally, physically, etc.). When you compare them, it detracts from the broader point you have made.
So where's the line? If your niece lives with you while your sister is incarcerated does that "count" as being similar enough to parenthood to "justify" a choice to have or not have children? If you were a full time live-in nanny? If your dead beat uncle drops your baby cousin off at your house every day? Step-parent? Foster parent? Teacher?
It seems incredibly silly to completely discount all your life experience when making important decisions...
FWIW, I've known someone who very much wanted kids then she became a full time live in nanny. That changed her mind completely about having kids of her own. She still loves working with children, and she still works with kids, just not in a live-in situation. She'll probably work with children her whole (working) life.
>How many parents have you ever heard say, "I wish I didn't have kids"?
My mother said those exact words to me every single day. Either that are similar stuff like "you ruin my life, I wish you were never born."
But, it's not something that is socially acceptable to say, so how many times you've heard is is completely irrelevant. I doubt my mother would say that to anyone else. It's like saying "how many times have you seen someone say 'I am sexually attracted to children?' None? Ok, now we can conclude pedophilia and childhood sexual abuse doesn't exist!"
> How many parents have you ever heard say, "I wish I didn't have kids"?
More and more, now that the taboo is breaking down to some degree. This has been the subject of some recent press reporting.[0][1]
That said, it is disturbing to me, at least, how people’s having children might rewire their brains. They might like their new role only because of certain changes in brain chemistry that result from parenthood. Their fondness for being parents is therefore something forced on them in a way, it is not a matter of actual choice.
"Our "psychological immune system" lets us feel truly happy even when things don't go as planned."
"Certain changes in brain chemistry" result in us adjusting to be approximately as happy as they always are even in situations which one would predict way less or way more happiness.
I've heard a lot of parents say something along those lines, though usually softened a bit: "I love my kids but if I had to do it all over again I wouldn't have had them."
> How many parents have you ever heard say, "I wish I didn't have kids"?
I have heard a number of friends say this, though almost always indirectly. There is a real stigma associated with being unhappy with parenthood, but many people do not seem to enjoy the process.
From my own observations, eventually most parents adjust their own personal "bar" for happiness and more or less accept their lot. I'm sure they get something positive out of it, but it seems to be a tradeoff for other sources of happiness and life satisfaction which usually become unavailable to parents.
==I have heard a number of friends say this, though almost always indirectly.==
Is it possible you are inferring it a certain way because of your bias? For instance, I complain about having kid all the time, but I wouldn't give him up for anything.
==There is a real stigma associated with being unhappy with parenthood, but many people do not seem to enjoy the process.==
This is something only a non-parent would say. Nobody enjoys the sleepless nights, dirty diapers or unexplained whining, but those are part of the same process that leads from laughing, to crawling, to walking, to speaking, to reasoning.
==From my own observations, eventually most parents adjust their own personal "bar" for happiness and more or less accept their lot. I'm sure they get something positive out of it, but it seems to be a tradeoff for other sources of happiness and life satisfaction which usually become unavailable to parents.==
Your wording implies that you have never actually asked a parent if they get anything out of it, but just make an assumption to fit your mental model. Everything in life is a trade-off, that isn't the same as wishing you didn't do something.
> Is it possible you are inferring it a certain way because of your bias? For instance, I complain about having kid all the time, but I wouldn't give him up for anything.
Not being happy with parenting doesn't imply wanting to give up your child. It just means that you made a bad decision that you're now stuck with / making the best of.
It could be that I was simply reading into things, but I have been told directly by someone that it had been a bad choice. But as people do, they adapted and moved on, though their life is very different now and I barely recognize them anymore.
I've also known happy parents. It's just silly to say that parenting is automatically a happy event. Nothing in life is going to be enjoyable for every person.
Having kids takes a lot of time and money. If you work till 5 you need to pay for childcare, which isn't cheap at all and might even be akin to doubling your rent. Mom is also working so you can't just unload domestic work and childcare to someone else to worry about. If you are entry level chances are you need to get there before the boss and stay there after if you ever want to not be entry level, and work weekends during busy season, so even that 40hr week can go up to 50-60. If you are a woman asking for maternity leave in an entry level job could jeopardize your entire career trajectory. Even in superficially liberal SF, VC firms have been known to discriminate against women entrepreneurs just from the possibility that they might be pregnant one day. People can scarcely keep housing costs below 30% of their net income.
People are waiting until they have more money and a job that actually gives them time to raise a family. The real reason why people are putting off having kids is that it's not 1950 anymore.
Leaving aside the fact that you have not substantiated your claim, it could very well be that having kids in America makes you miserable, because the safety net is gutted or non-existent.
There is almost no maternal/paternal leave, health care costs are astronomical, so are child care costs, which are almost necessary, because the normal multi-generational family has been systematically destroyed over the last half-century, both with advertising and economic pressure. Not to mention the lack of compromising skills in both partners, which has been exacerbated by identity politics.
So yes, in context, maybe having kids is miserable*
>but it's because of the cost of raising children and not the children themselves
that's the equivalent of saying "if I control for skin colour I observe no discrimination". The cost of raising children both financially and in time, is intrinsically linked to raising children.
It is often asserted that spousal relationships suffer from the routine chores that come with raising children, and that is not going away. Don't control for the thing you want to measure.
Wouldn't that also contradict the biological imperative to pass on our genes? If having children had an overall and prolonged negative impact on your stress levels, it would also impede humans' ability to effectively procreate since stress has a direct impact on life expectancy and fertility. I can understand that in the short-term, that might be the case, but over a longer period (say the last 10k years) it does not appear to be true.
The stronger "biological imperative" is to have sex; birth control is quite a recent invention. And once you had kids, it doesn't matter that your life expectancy or fertility drops a bit because your genes are already passed on.
There's no way to objectively measure happiness, so no that hasn't been proven.
Personally, I've found having a kid to be less stressful, less expensive, and more rewarding than my college/career experience. I'm happier now than I ever was before. Yeah it's hard sometimes, but what isn't?
That's like saying it's scientifically proven that people who invest are poorer than people who hoard their cash (and don't invest). True in the short term, false in the long term.
That's the biggest crock I've ever read on HN. Where did this "science" come from? A bunch of self-obsessed journalists I'm sure or maybe /r/childfree?
The people who are unhappy with kids are the people who are unhappy, depressed and bitter to begin with, lacking all empathy. You have to be a pretty self-absorbed individual to not love the innocence and charm of children.
Every person I know with a family loves their children to death and are very content and happy. Happiness consists in pursuing the ultimate unchanging good and increasing in virtue, nothing passing in this life can give you ultimate everlasting happiness. It is a philosophical, metaphysical and theological question, not a question of children, free-time or money. Children are a good thing, but they're not the ultimate object whereby one becomes happy.
