One of the many great things about children, if you're not a total heartless bastard of course, is that having them really sharpens your mind as to what's important and what's not.
Most of these things the HN crowd obsesses over are shit, and the things that replace those things will also be shit, and the thing you make with those things--even if it makes you fabulously wealthy--will also be shit, and if you don't believe me, take Ryan Dahl's word for it: https://gist.github.com/cookrn/4015437
So rather than worry about sliding further away from the apex of our shit pyramid, ease up and enjoy the ride. You may even come up with something of actual value to society along the way.
I have a "ToLearn" list that keeps getting longer and longer as I struggle to have some quality time where I can learn and really comprehend stuff AFTER putting my 4 year old daughter to sleep- i too have to stay with her till she is asleep- often with me also going to nap...
When I am getting stressed and mad about all those constraints I picture the sweet moments with the knowledge, that there are just a few years left where my daughter and son are small enought to want to play with me ;)
I have both this "to learn" list and an ever expanding bookshelf (which grows faster than I can read the damn things, mostly thanks to recommendations in HN comments).
Being 5 months into the parenting adventure, I seem to get a few hours a month on each side project at the moment! It really does make you prioritise. (And work harder on things I can do on my rail commute than other tasks).
I haven't got to the "wants to play with me" part yet, just the "oh man, I just spend half an hour staring at the baby being cute" stage. :)
Yeah, I did that, and then some of the buttons stopped working on the keyboard from too much smashing from the children. In the end, I removed the cable from the keyboard and it became a toy. I never let the kids play with the replacement one, but they do love having their own real keyboard.
Hmm, thank you for the warning. Was it a mechanical one? I fear for my WASD! I have plenty of spare plastic dome keyboards in a box. Now I have a real excuse not to throw them out!
> but seeing her proud of grabbing and biting a book, is much more exciting.
this is exactly the sort of common statement from parents that is completely impenetrably unfathomable by non-parents and may even frighten the latter a bit as to how something so superficially insipid can attain a compelling and inexplicable level of fascination
Of course, you could say similar things about non-parents playing games for hours and hours which essentially consist of bumping numbers up to higher values in mutable RAM and considering it a "good waste of time"
The thing is, you've just spent a month watching this pair of eyes follow you around the room, and this face very slowly get the hang of smiling (initially it is only when they are defecating).
When they get to the stage of being able to hold objects, this is a major event. When they get the hang of putting stuff in their own mouths during teething, rather than screaming until you let them bite your finger, is another, similar world-changing event.
This was a mystery to me too, before. Now I understand, and am even mildly interested in other peoples' babies (since I have one to compare them with.)
Parenting also has another similarity with D&D: your adversary is surprisingly intelligent. (when they're grouchy, they'll see through your hacks very quickly and scream until you do it properly, however tired you are. A "hack" in this instance might be giving them the same toy to chew again, rather than a new one from the mat.)
Oh, I wasn't knocking it! I'm sure that (possibly soon?), whenever I get around to making life, I'll be quite fascinated by it (I seem to find fascination often! There's a lot of complexity out there!)
Watching a brand new human go from a useless blob to a walking, biting, hand-waving mini-human is pretty fascinating stuff, especially if said tiny human belongs to you.
hehe yes I still remember beeing a first-time-dad :D
But it keeps getting even better- at about 18 months they become "real" persons! I mean they learn to communicate and suddently want things (in the meaning want to do or have).
It's always awesome when my little son takes my hand after dinner and mumbles "build" so I play some duplo with him.
PG wrote a post a while back about how kids really only have the magic of Christmas a handful of times (ages 3-11?) and then it's gone.
When you're making choices, realize there will always be another framework, another conference, another chance to try out that new tool but your kid is constantly changing, learning, and is fundamentally different today, tomorrow, and a week from now, especially when they're young. I have a 2yo and a 5mo and they get first dibs on my time. After they go to bed, I work until whatever time.. but they're back up by 8am so I take it easy.
Btw, it's fun opening a conference call with "Just so you know, my son is joining us for this call. He's not NDA'd but he's 2 years old, doesn't write yet and has a very limited vocabulary. Are you okay with that?"
And then if it's internal-only, I turn on video for a minute so he can wave at everyone. ;)
OK, I'm completely baffled by this. Am I the only one who thinks taking your young children on a conference call is somewhere between totally unprofessional and, well, very annoying? I get that your children are your priority - but surely they shouldn't be the priority of everyone else on that call? Is the work at hand not the priority?
My 3 year old makes a lot of noise and is quite prone to tantrums. Some of my clients are also quite prone to tantrums. Combining the two seems like a recipe for disaster!
On my "geographically spread" team, I have no issue with a team memeber having their kid in their lap while discussing the intricacies of postgres. Perhaps, part of this empathy is driven by having a 3 year old myself. I can totally imagine myself in the same situation if I had to join a meeting before daycare opens (or if I want to drop off my kid a little later, for whatever reason).
Compared to my kid, all else is secondary. I realize that I may not always have the freedom to work with a kid-friendly employer, but it will be an overriding criteria in terms of my workplace/career choices. I'll happily negotiate on other terms, but my time and priority for my kid. And if an employer does not agree, it's their loss, not mine.
My two year old is super chill and rarely makes a sound. If he does, I give him a clicky pen and he's set for another 5-10 minutes. If I open a cartoon on Youtube (muted), it buys me another 5-10 minutes.
I get your concern but it's a non-issue here.
Edit: Thinking more about this.. If my team was deeply offended by this, I don't want to work there. My boys are important to me and if they're not willing to accept that, I'd rather find a new job than raise f-d up boys that don't feel loved.
Just FYI, you might have coworkers that aren't all that interested in conversing with your children during conference calls. I know it makes me uncomfortable to have a forced interaction with a coworkers child. I doubt anyone would be deeply offended by it, but do keep in mind that not everyone is as comfortable with your kid as you are. If you have a team that embraces it, that's great - just don't assume everyone always is.
There's a big difference between waving at a coworker's kid for a second during a video conference (why would this make you uncomfortable?) and someone actually bringing a child to the workplace (which OP didn't do, and would actually be disruptive).
Yep, if it just stays at that it's fine. I find with the types that are likely to turn on their webcam for their kid, there's often more that follows as interested colleagues egg on conversation. That's fine, it doesn't bother me until there's an expectation that I participate in this conversation, which unfortunately doesn't seem to be as controllable (kid sees me on video or my screenshare or whatever and starts asking questions).
No, it's not that big of a deal, it's just something I'm not interested in interacting with, and if you're the guy who always has to introduce his kids at the beginning of conference calls, I'm probably going to generally avoid you unless I absolutely need you for something.
I'm sure if I had a kid I'd feel entirely different, but I don't. I also try not to involve my lifestyle choices on conference calls, so I really feel this doesn't go both ways.
You are distracted every five to ten minutes. If everyone on your team did this, nothing would get done. You are being extremely selfish and very inconsiderate of other people's time.
You would be annoyed if you had to answer an email or phone call when you were trying to hang out with your kids. The rest of us are annoyed with the constant interruptions.
It is extremely selfish and others are too polite to tell you to knock it off. If everyone acted like OP, nothing would get done because there would always be a kid, cat, dog, whatever stealing focus. I need to get my work done so I can go home.
"If I disagree with this one thing which wasn't apparent from any glassdoor review, recruiter, interview, unique set of benefits and perks, or compensation package, then I don't want to work there"
- Says person with desirable skills in a hot job market who never changed jobs since graduating college
The reality of many people who work from home is that this is the case anyway - the children are around and make some noise, because they live. Making this transparent and show who the kid is I think makes it actually easier for the other people in the call to feel empathy.
If that is unprofessional, then so is working from home, I guess.
I agree they make some noise, but having them in your lap during a conference call is over the line imo. If you have kids in the house then you need an office with a door. I've worked from home for 3 years now with 2 kids aged 0-5 and they understand that when the door is closed, Dad is at work and they don't come in.
In my experience, no, kids that young do not understand that. Furthermore, if you have the door closed for the length of a conference call with a child that young, I'd expect there to be another adult (or responsible elder sibling) there in the first place, such that the burden of not bothering you was never on the child.
If that can't be arranged, you reschedule the call.
If you have 2 children 0-5 with you all day, and no other responsible adult around, you are not working from home. You are getting some work done while you watch your kids.
Sorry, I thought it would be obvious that there was another adult looking after the kids. It's not really possible to work from home and look after kids at the same time obviously. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on whether they understand/can follow simple instructions. It's never been a problem with my kids.
That is reassuring then. Not convinced their ability to follow simple instructions should even be a factor, though. Kids at that age lack the judgement to know when some rules should be broken.
> having them in your lap during a conference call is over the line imo.
You do understand that sometimes the alternative to the kid sitting quietly in their parent's lap is the kid screaming their head off on the other side of the home office door, right?
Personally, I'll take the kid sitting in the parent's lap as being the lesser by far of two annoyances, thanks.
"screaming their head off on the other side of the home office door"
Whoever is looking after the child should not be allowing them to sit outside the office door and scream! If you're home alone with a kid, you shouldn't be taking conference calls (except under emergency situations e.g. sick kid + critical call).
> If you're home alone with a kid, you shouldn't be taking conference calls
Right, so only people in two-caregiver households get to work from home. Got it.
Everybody up and down this thread who is assuming that there even is another caregiver needs to check their privilege.
I am not a parent myself, but I have been on conference calls where a colleague tried to keep a child out of their home office for a few minutes (like, for the part of the call when it was their turn to give an update) and it blew up in their face. Just let the kid sit in your lap already, it's fine.
Sorry but I don't believe you can look after your kid all day and work from home at the same time. It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of practicality. If you have a full time job, you need childcare whether you work in your home or out of it. I don't think that's particularly controversial.
edit: If it lends any weight to my opinion, I guess I could also point out I work from home and that that despite your assumption I've been the only parent for two children <= 5 years old for the last 9 weeks.
I guess I'm not sure what your argument is then. Yes childcare can be tough to find and it can be very expensive depending on where you live, but if you're saying its okay to hold a full time remote job and care for your child at the same time, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I dont' think that would be fair to your child or your employer.
I am not saying it is "okay", I am saying that sometimes there is no other option. Life happens, people cope the best they can, and sometime the reasonable compromise is going to be to let the kid sit on their parent's lap for the duration of a conference call.
I think you misunderstand. There is obviously another caregiver looking after them. I can't have a 24 hour open door policy with my kids while I'm working from home, just the same as anyone who works in an office.
Then it is perfectly reasonable to have a closed door for calls. However, even in that case, I would not mind an interruption or two during the call. Any more though, I'd start questioning the role of the caregiver.
I work from home with a great team. I had my son jump into two calls. Both times he was completely naked and had just ran away from his mother after a bath. Both times I was greeted with fun and interaction from the team. When I apologised after about the interruption, I got a private message from the CEO to never even think about it. They are happy he was on the call for a few minutes and everyone interacted with him.
I guess it depends on the team/clients, but my kid comes first, 110% of the times. I don't care. I do good work, if a 5-10 minute interruption on a call because my kid wanted to say 'hi' to the people in the computer is enough to piss people off, I won't work with them.
>>Am I the only one who thinks taking your young children on a conference call is somewhere between totally unprofessional and, well, very annoying?
The fact some people think like that is what dismays me with the corporate world, I'm glad I got out and I'm never going back. Thanks for reminding me.
It doesn't seem that uncommon for companies to recognize the importance of families, although perhaps it's more common in those with more older employees.
I've had my infant on video calls and he mostly wanted to see all the people. And I've had to turn off my camera to change diapers before. But everyone's been cool with it. Clients seem to like seeing him.
On the flip side, I've been on calls with people whose toddlers were running around their home office screaming, and that's not cool.
I work in a professional team, and one of the things that makes us even more professional is when we all get our kids together for a gathering, and let our kids inter-mingle. It has helped us become less of a group of cold-hearted single-minded professionals and more of a coherent, self-interested group with aligned survival potential.
Having kids sometimes come over while we work is pretty cool. They ask questions about what we're doing at times and we have to ELI5, it's great practice.
My desk has a number of puzzles and they have a ton of fun playing with it. Sometimes they draw on the whiteboard or write a quote.
A++, would definitely recommend bringing kids a couple of times a year.
I've found it really breaks the ice between colleagues .. especially when our kids make friends/make drama independently from the office politics - it somehow unites us. :)
Of course it helps to work in a company producing things that might be actually interesting to kids in the first place. If all you're doing web-blah, ymmv..
I had a video call interview recently and my interviewer was being attacked by his new puppy during the call. Although distracting it made me want to work there.
The comparison between kids & pets is amusing. So many workplaces are pet-friendly (despite people having allergies or phobias) but try bringing your toddler to the office.
Oh, there is no freaking comparison. Pets won't swipe stuff off your desk, practice their infinite regression of "why" on you, yank your pony tail, hand you stuff they swiped from another desk, knock over your empty-soda-can pyramid, try to eat a nerf dart, or demand your attention so they can explain to you how they are super-special and going to heaven because Jesus loves them.
No, I am not kidding or making up any of the above, though it wasn't all the same kid, nor all the same day (or even the same workplace), and admittedly I have no phobias or allergies.
Ok... there's a pretty huge difference between a puppy and a toddler. A toddler is a lot smarter, and a LOT more disruptive than any puppy (not to say puppies aren't, but they don't have two hands either).
Depends on the kid. I could easily have mine on at 3 as long as I put something out to entertain him. You wouldn't know that he's there.
What it comes down to is a trade-off. If you want me working on the off hours and working 50+ hours a week, or working on days I'd otherwise take as a sick day, I get to bring my kids to calls.
I even took my older son, 4 years old, to a two hour meeting because my baby sitter called in sick. I just packed toys for him and told him that I needed to work and he accepted that. It worked out fine for one hour and 45 minutes.
Unless your company is directly contributing to clinical immortality, children are always a priority for long-term development. That's where all the future owners, managers, employees, and customers come from.
Once a kid knows how to behave appropriately in public, any exposure to their parents' jobs also teaches them how to behave appropriately at the workplace, and what to expect after leaving school. If you don't accept this at your own workplace, you are pushing that burden onto someone else's workplace, or accepting by default any cultural shift that may occur in future workplaces.
As I would not expose my own kids to a workplace environment that I did not find to be minimally acceptable, seeing kids around is to me a sign of a healthy work environment. Not seeing them is a red flag, but it could just be because your workplace does not allow visitors.
This is the same principle that causes me to lower my opinion of employers that do not hire people with zero experience. You are simultaneously pushing the burden of assimilation and training onto other people, stunting the development of the people you do hire--as they are denied mentorship and leadership opportunities--and passively accepting that you have a much reduced role in shaping the future of the industry.
You are not alone. I find this disrespectful and very irritating. Probably depends on the tempo of your workplace. I am dodging meetings all day long, and when I join one I expect everyone to be prepared and fully focused
Yes, the way I wrote that made it look bad. But I get 5 invitations per work day on average. In Outlook I have the option to Accept, Decline or set as Tentative. If I click Accept on 5 meeting invitations in a work day I will not be able to write a single line of code. So 3 out of 5 meetings I Decline with a message describing why. And yes, my organisation is obsessed with meetings, we are working on that
It might be unprofessional, but I'd laugh and roll with it even as someone without kids. Especially for internal calls within your team, probably not a bad thing to do - you want to have a fairly relaxed relationship with them generally, so this kind of stuff is expected and perfectly fine as long as it doesn't get in the way of work too much.
With clients, I can definitely see it being a bigger problem.
Maybe this is just evidence that a lot of people I work with just aren't developers because they love development that much - they like it enough and it pays enough to get the things they want in the rest of their time and there's nothing wrong with that.
> OK, I'm completely baffled by this. Am I the only one who thinks taking your young children on a conference call is somewhere between totally unprofessional and, well, very annoying?
Probably not, but I usually don't mind. For that matter, the gloss of "professionalism" is highly overrated (I'll take empathy plus moral, ethical, and responsible conduct over "it's just business" type "professionalism" any day of the week).
Of course, it does depend on the behavior of the kid in question. I would expect a parent whose kid is disrupting the meeting to excuse themselves, or at least mute the mike on their end. That goes double for pets.
I occasionally have my 1 year old with me on calls. Besides the occasional burbling, the only issue is that she occasionally farts or burps and then cackles loudly to herself. I wouldn't have her with me on large calls, generally only on 1-on-1 calls.
I think this really depends on the context. Some teams may find it unprofessional, but others don't. Someone on my team has a baby and we all enjoy seeing her in meetings. It's not a constant thing so it doesn't get annoying. It's just nice and if anything, brings the team closer together.
I work at a consulting firm. On internal calls, it's usually totally fine generally speaking, but perhaps a different matter if it is a client call.
Frankly given the hours people work, I respect that they're taking time to be with their kids and trying to find some balance in between the insane hours we work.
I've worked on distributed teams where kids pop into conference calls to say hi. It actually does some good when everyone is getting pissed about some shitstorm or another. If a kid (or kitten) pops on the screen, everyone calms down and the shitstorm magically evaporates.
"Professional" is subjective depending on your workplace. Jeans and a t-shirt is "unprofessional" if your profession is banking. Fortunately, developers these days have the luxury of choosing a workplace where the standards of professionalism suit them.
Concerning the Christmas thing: for me my children brought back the magic of Christmas for me too! When it was a super stressful time the years before, but now I can enjoy it again thanks to their enthusiasm and spirit.
And the other half who don't think kids are quite, but don't mind some small talk. Wether it's kids, morning run or yesterday's party.
Personally I'd hate rush calls that are business only and straight to the point. Virtually all my calls include some offtopic. And that's fine, we're humans, not robots.
I have two kids, and I love the time I spend with them. My life's goal at the moment is "Have a good time with my kids and teach them the good stuff". There is this song "Cat's in the Cradle" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat's_in_the_Cradle which I really love. It shows the pitfalls of living a fast life.
"Cat's In The Cradle"
My child arrived just the other day
He came to the world in the usual way
But there were planes to catch and bills to pay
He learned to walk while I was away
And he was talkin' 'fore I knew it, and as he grew
He'd say "I'm gonna be like you, Dad
You know I'm gonna be like you"
And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home, Dad
I don't know when, but we'll get together then
You know we'll have a good time then
My son turned ten just the other day
He said, "Thanks for the ball, Dad, come on let's play
Can you teach me to throw", I said "Not today
I got a lot to do", he said, "That's ok"
And he walked away but his smile never dimmed
And said, "I'm gonna be like him, yeah
You know I'm gonna be like him"
And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home, Dad
I don't know when, but we'll get together then
You know we'll have a good time then
Well, he came from college just the other day
So much like a man I just had to say
"Son, I'm proud of you, can you sit for a while"
He shook his head and said with a smile
"What I'd really like, Dad, is to borrow the car keys
See you later, can I have them please"
And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home son
I don't know when, but we'll get together then, Dad
You know we'll have a good time then
I've long since retired, my son's moved away
I called him up just the other day
I said, "I'd like to see you if you don't mind"
He said, "I'd love to, Dad, if I can find the time
You see my new job's a hassle and the kids have the flu
But it's sure nice talking to you, Dad
It's been sure nice talking to you"
And as I hung up the phone it occurred to me
He'd grown up just like me
My boy was just like me
And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man in the moon
When you comin' home son
I don't know when, but we'll get together then, Dad
We're gonna have a good time then
I am now very sad, thanks. My little four year old son is asleep in the bed next to me, and I've been working since 3am. I can't let it stay like that.
I know the song well, but it's the first time I've really read the lyrics and ... wow... (running my own business with 3 small children, one a son)... listening to it on Spotify now.
I agree with everything you say except for bringing kids into conference calls. I feel I still keep my kids as my number 1 priority even though I do conference calls and phone calls with my door closed (and locked). It just seems more professional and respects the time of others on the call.
Agree.. it does sharpen your mind, and also forces you to be more self-disciplined. You basically shift priorities away from things you might have done when you were younger (like drinking, dating, golf, etc), to playing with them, reading to them, taking them to practices, school functions, etc. However, I've found that the time I spend focusing on work or keeping up on technologies is about the same as when I was younger. Of course, there will always have to be compromises.. whether it be work, children, or doing anything else. When you're older, I think you're a bit smarter and more efficient with your time. You multitask a bit better, I think. Having an understanding work environment helps also. There will always be that one person at your company or client that doesn't have kids and thinks that any time away from driving to the next (fictional) deadline is the most important thing in the world, but at this point, you're a bit smarter than that. You start to anticipate potential bullshit situations, so you compensate and address possibly ugly situations much better. You also learn faster.. by necessity perhaps, you're more experienced, so you see the deep connections between technologies, or personality types much clearer and sooner in the process. Keeping with the spirit of the above comment, you start to see what's actually important and really what isn't.
On that bell curve of technology, where the far left is "bleeding edge" and the far right is "obsolete", you'll move a bit toward the right. But if you're already bleeding edge, then you'll just move toward "new and productive". So really you'll probably end up being more valuable as an engineer. "Bleeding edge" is really more about playing than about getting stuff done anyway.
> "Bleeding edge" is really more about playing than about getting stuff done anyway.
Well, yes, but playing around with the bleeding edge now means that you get to legitimately claim "x years experience" when it suddenly becomes "new and productive".
Not that I actually like that particular dynamic, or the recruiters who make it a useful strategy.
Bravo. When the shitshow is over somewhere north of 60 and you're sitting on a porch contemplating your life, it sure will be good to have a son or daughter (or both) to be sitting next to you.
Actually it's also a social thing, not just a skill thing. You Need to know the stuff the other People talk about to be part of the gang. Being part of the gang is rewarded. Being outside is punished (sublty). That's just how humans work.
I really like the spirit of this comment, but I can only imagine feeling like that if I was either very confident in my skills or had some serious FU money in the bank.
I work for a big international company that is gradually sinking, and continually laying people off and replacing them with offshore staff. I'm sure I'm not alone among HN readers. I have no idea how much longer I'll have a job for, or whether there will be other opportunities when I finally lose mine.
I have no kids and nobody else depending on me, but still have massive anxiety about being able to provide for myself and remain employed in the future. All recent trends seem to point towards jobs becoming less secure and more globalised.
It's great to be aware of the important things in life, but I can't think of many more depressing scenarios than having children depending on me and no idea how to provide for them.
Setting some context: I have two kids, 2 and 1. And a mortgage thats too big and a job situation much like yours (do we work for the same company?? :))
Use this time right now to figure out what YOU want. That includes a general life path which prioritizes work or family - or for the rare person, both. And also what you want immediately-take risks now if that so interests you. Figure out what works and what doesn't in office politics. Expand your network. Expand it with quality connections. Then expand it some more, as if you were a politician. Learn.
The ability for you to remain at one job more than 3 years will be rare, and thats ok. Assume you won't have serious FU money, and so you need some backup plans for things you can't control.
If you do none of the above, at least don't just sit around waiting to get laid off. Its not good for the company, you, or your future.
Just the fact that you keep up with the stuff on this board means you probably already know, and always will know, more than most of the people in this field--even if you quit cold-turkey--because outside of the SV bubble, most tech workers are really only experts at coffee, Slack, meetings, and the art of looking busy.
I think this is more about your frame of mind. Without a wife or kids, you are in a fantastic position to establish leverage, wherever you may be. One mistake I made in my early career was trying to stay on top of the tech and credentials. After running my own business for a few years, it became very clear that things like empathy, physical dominance, patterns of speech, grooming, and basic manners are far more powerful when it comes to getting what you want.
It certainly does. I find it makes me more efficient or waste less time on things that don't matter. It forces optimization and applying the 80-20 to so many things.
> Most of these things the HN crowd obsesses over are [not important]
Maybe 'most', but some of it is important in terms of developing your skill set. It can be difficult to know which bits are going to become important (popular), so learning about as much as you can will a) increase the chances of you learning about something that will become relevant, b) getting better at filtering out the noise.
>One of the many great things about children, if you're not a total heartless bastard of course, is that having them really sharpens your mind as to what's important and what's not.
Why do parents think popping out a kid gives them some mystical wisdom? Maybe it just gives you one thing to focus all you energy on and suddenly that feels really important?
The most charitable response I can think of is that "popping out a kid" (or adopting) immediately shifts you out of the center of your own universe. It's a profound change of perspective for most people.
I used to think like this. I have two kids and one more on the way.
Setting aside the emotional part of the equation, having kids _is_ very taxing on your time and energy. It forces you to prioritize like never before. And that shows in your work. You are forced to learn how to focus on bigger-picture issues because there's no time for bullshit anymore.
To reply directly to the OP: if there is an OSS project on Github that is really important, your green graph will stay green. If its not important, it won't stay green and it won't matter anyway.
Why do you think your opinion has any chance of validity on this matter unless you have existed both without and with a kid? This is like people bashing Apple without having ever used an Apple product, or who have merely played with the neighbor's Apple product
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't mean unfounded opinion has to be respected or borne just because.
Too many things people say are "just because I think so" without much thinking going into why or how they came to that conclusion. So, maybe calling out baselessly opinionated people is ok?
As an aside, seems like the response was in the same tone as the parent's comment.
I read it as: "your opinion is wrong because you don't seem to have the requisite experience".
And, in such cases, I don't think people can be allowed hide behind the "right to an opinion". If you think about it, this is the source of "alternate facts".
So what you're saying is "you don't. People with children will not be as good".
Great. That means I should not feel bad about any hypothetical statistics that show parents paid less than non-parents. You're saying parents are, on average, statistically, not as useful as non-parents to a company.
What kind of trolling nonsense is this? The senior engineers I know all have spouses and children, and our employers find us quite desirable to have around.
If you're focusing on learning each new whizbang whatsit that comes out, you'll never learn how to lead a team. You'll teach your employer that you can be abused, because you are desperate to impress them.
Giving up a family to stay ahead will leave you a lonely, burned out mess. This is a marathon, brother, not a sprint.
> Giving up a family to stay ahead will leave you a lonely, burned out mess.
False dichotomy fallacy. There's plenty of programmers I admire who aren't apparently parents. And there's happiness studies which show neither a positive nor a negative gain when parenthood arrives.
> What kind of trolling nonsense is this? The senior engineers I know all have spouses and children
Please read what was written, and what I replied.
> If you're[…]
I'm not. Your comment is completely disconnected from what I said.
> learning each new whizbang whatsit that comes out
Is that the only way you know how to improve yourself professionally? If so then I think you're doing it wrong.
If you're a developer doing network stuff, then given a few years you could get a CCIE or something, and learn tonnes of stuff and be a more valuable employee. You don't have to try to stay on top of the latest developments in SDN. That'd probably be a waste of time.
No he's saying the definition of "being good" is not obsessively adopting "new technology" but realizing that the core foundations of CS are the core foundations of CS, and doing your job 8 hours a day and learning your core skill set and iterating and practicing on it is in fact all that is needed to produce a good programmer.
Frankly I think those of us who have been in the industry over 15 or 20 years know that adopting new technologies is not the hard or important part. Having the wisdom about how, when, and what to apply things, recognizing good engineering, and learning to work well in a team -- that's what's important.
Having kids might mean you can't stay up at night learning the latest JS framework -- but that very likely might be a good thing.
Sure. From a certain perspective that's correct. If you're a non-parent and work/study productively 16 hours per day 7 days a week without time off and can maintain that, then, from some perspective, you're better.
Thing is, in most cases, your value as a software engineer is very marginally related to your ability to keep up with the latest and greatest of everything. In fact an obsession with bleeding-edge technology can be a sign of indifference toward what you're actually being paid to do.
> No, he is just saying that he does not have to worry about being as good. It is just a choice.
Also, being "good" isn't simply a function of whether you've read up on the latest tech fad. A lot of the stuff we chase is an incremental improvement (and in some cases a step backwards).
Parenting also helps practice empathy, which is an severely underrated skill in technology circles.
Why do you think that the ONLY way to spend extra time on is on that new thing from HN 2 AM?
I'm not following this huge leap that you and other commenters are making.
How about choosing between the people who have twice as much experience with managing this Oracle cluster you have. Do you want the one with 10 years experience, or the one with 20 years and is credited in Oracle documentation?
Most of these things the HN crowd obsesses over are shit, and the things that replace those things will also be shit, and the thing you make with those things--even if it makes you fabulously wealthy--will also be shit, and if you don't believe me, take Ryan Dahl's word for it: https://gist.github.com/cookrn/4015437
So rather than worry about sliding further away from the apex of our shit pyramid, ease up and enjoy the ride. You may even come up with something of actual value to society along the way.