Not adding to a sensible discussion perhaps, but I'm convinced that bullying is the result of inaction by parents and teachers/schools. Merely standing by and letting it happen is the worst thing you can do to your children.
As a dad with young kids, I can assure you that if this were to happen to them, I'd wage all-out cyberwar, on the kids and any parents that didn't properly curtail their child's behavior after official notifications. From doxing and redialing faxes to bully-vision youtube channels naming and shaming their family. It isn't slander if it's true…
I've made it 100% clear to my kids that I've got their backs. It's my duty as a dad.
Edit: Yes, this story obviously struck a nerve for me. I was bullied as a 12yo kid for a few months. I was a good kid, and did well in school, which made me the outlier.
I remember how terrified I was when the bell rang at the end of the school day, knowing that the pests would be waiting for me on the way home.
I also vividly remember the day my dad took me aside and simply said: "Go ahead. You have my permission to make them feel sorry. I have your back. Just don't do it on school property."
The day I took action was a truly glorious and empowering day. Hearing my dad tell their parents afterwards they had it coming, supported by some photographic proof of damage caused in the past, was even better. Upside: nobody ever bothered me again.
This happened a long time ago, and not in the litigious USA where money and lawsuits get off every bullying 'precious snowflake', yet I'm certain I'd take that risk today, if official channels failed to ensure the (mental) well-being of my children.
>> As a dad with young kids, I can assure you that if this were to happen to them, I'd wage all-out cyberwar, on the kids and any parents that didn't properly curtail their child's behavior after official notifications. <<
Uh, cyberwar? No. This happened once to my one of my sons. I found out who the parents where (divorced, different locations) drove to both their houses, and said, "If your kid doesn't stop today, you, your kid and your family, are not safe outside this door. I never said this." I put on my best pycho face. Truly, I was psycho, so it didn't take much.
It stopped.
I was the target of intense intense bullying as a kid. Affected me my whole life until my 30's. No kids of mine was going through that.
Good for you. I hate bullies. I heard this story once about my mother-in-law's tailor / dry cleaner. He'd moved to upstate NY from Italy. His kid was being physically bullied on his way home from school. One day, the guy hid in the bushes and jumped out at the bullies with a kitchen knife and told them "If you toucha my kid again, I'll fuckin kill you."
Nobody should have to put up with bullying. When it's this social kind on the Internet, I think in many ways it is worse because it's less clear how to defend yourself.
>> I found out who the parents where (divorced, different locations) drove to both their houses, and said, "If your kid doesn't stop today, you, your kid and your family, are not safe outside this door. I never said this." I put on my best pycho face. Truly, I was psycho, so it didn't take much.
This was one great way to deal with it. Though I can't stop thinking about the legal issues this could've caused.
Bullying in school by kids is one thing but going out there and threatning someone is completely another ball.
What if they had recorded it somehow and complained?
I say this as someone who's in early twenties and have dealt with bullying in school for 4-5 years.
>> What if they had recorded it somehow and complained? <<
I couldn't imagine someone being ready to record a conversation in the first 15 second of them opening their front door.
It's a matter of judgement, to be sure. I have a spotless police record. Both of these parents do not (and the father's was violent in nature). As another replier here noted "restraining order." I would have enjoyed a legal battle with these parents, as they have not near the resources to draw on as I. I also had evidence against their child in the form of notes and drawing that were violent and threatening in nature.
If that had of been some other type of parent, I'd maybe had done it differently. But with these people, that's what worked.
Thank you for the reconsideration. I've never actually been in a fight in my entire life (probably why I got bullied so much) and it took every last ounce of my self control to walk up to someone who had already had a history of violence. It's just bad all the way the 'roud.
And this is a very important point - there isn't a magical cure-all solution to these things. You have to consider what approach works not only for you, but also what works on the people you need to reach. People really are diverse enough that the approach you took, while one that some could consider ill-advised, was the actual right way to communicate with the other party in your situation.
>> I found out who the parents where (divorced, different locations) drove to both their houses, and said, "If your kid doesn't stop today, you, your kid and your family, are not safe outside this door. I never said this."
Hello, restraining order.
Seriously, there are good ways to deal with situations like this. Threatening people is not one of those ways.
Okay, I'll call that. Have you tried to get a restraining order? Do you know what's involved?
I've tried: Here's what you get:
What proof do you have?
What is your relationship to that person?
They deny it, how do you respond?
More bullying, because they know you tried to go through the system, which favors the aggressor because authorities are too busy putting pot smokers behind bars.
I think the first step should be reasonable discourse with the bullies parents, not threatening them. But I also think that threatening people can be a good solution. In the past I was involved in a situation where the law just couldn't really do anything until it was probably too late. A simple quick threat later, and the problem went away. I'm not saying I'm proud of it, or that I prefer it as a solution, but we're still animals, and we respond to threats.
a) A whole lot of people have been figuratively buried clutching a piece of paper with the title "Restraining Order".
b) cognivore, who knows what he's talking about, was not the harasser. He would have absolutely no intention of violating a restraining order, unless his threat failed, in which case he'd violate it once, but for much, much higher stakes.
Your final statement needs some support, and I don't see any in this topic.
As a parent, I'm afraid that I wouldn't know if my kid was bullying people at school. She'd never come home and tell me about the bullying she did.
But you better believe that as soon as a concerned parent, teacher, or child told me about it there would be hell to pay for my kid.
I jump to blaming the kid before I blame the parents. Sure, we are responsible for raising our children, but there comes a time when they are away from us and we don't always get the full story about what is going on when we're not there to see.
My mother always assumed the adults were right in any situation I was ever in as a kid. I believe that has had an affect on me and on my relationship with my mother. My wife tells stories about how her mother came to her defense in important moments in her life. Besides creating amusing stories to tell later in life I think it had a role in strengthening their relationship. I always get a bit sad and jealous when I hear those stories.
I'm a man, but that's unimportant here. Yes, my kid would not tell me if she was a bully.
Any sort of meaningful conversation with my kid about it would likely devolve into a childish argument where the defense is "No, I'm not. It's the other kids."
You're faced with two choices here. On one side, you can back your kid. On the other, you can think that you're likely not getting the full story and that something really is going on.
My child, in particular, has a real problem with shifting blame. You need to have a read on your children so that you can properly judge for yourself what's going on. Bullying is not ok and your kids need to know that it's going to be no nonsense when it comes to bullying.
Kids certainly do develop patterns of shifting blame, it's true. That's usually because they've learned that it's better to shift blame than to take responsibility.
No, I didn't misread it. I am pointing out that if kids expect to be blamed for things by default, then they will learn not to disclose them.
It is the adults who have the power to create an an environment of trust. Not the kids.
Consider that it is possible to be both bullied and a bully at the same time, and that while bullying is a terrible behavior that cannot be condoned, a bully may not want to be a bully and may need help to stop other than simply being blamed.
Do you really think a child is ever going to tell any (responsible) parent that they just beat up another kid for fun today and ask for a high five?
I don't think I've ever encountered, in real life or media, a child coming clean with their parents about harassing and hurting other people without some outside pressure (aka other parents or the school getting involved)
No I don't think that they are going to ask for a high five. That's a meaningless straw man.
I think that kids do experience shame when they hurt others, and will confide in people they trust, if they have such a person.
I have witnessed this. Obviously if they've developed a serious pattern of bullying then it's going to be a lot harder, but having kids have someone they can confide mistakes in before that happens is part of how we can prevent it from developing.
As a dad with young kids, I can assure you that if this were to happen to them, I'd wage all-out cyberwar, on the kids and any parents that didn't properly curtail their child's behavior after official notifications. From doxing and redialing faxes to bully-vision youtube channels naming and shaming their family.
You will make your child's school life more of a hell than it already is.
No, not true. The parents of bullies are usually bullies themselves. The solution is to draw a hard line and say, I will take this so far you won't want to go where it ends up.
When I was a kid I got pushed so far that one day, when a bully stole my stocking cap for the 50th time and was going to dunk it in a cold puddle along the curbside I ran up and pushed him into the busy street's moving traffic. He was totally shocked - at that moment he realized I would now do anything to stop him. He never touched me from that day forward.
Hmmmm. Bullies pick on the weak/inactive/defenseless. Key is to nip it in the bud, swiftly and vigorously. Don't allow it to fester.
Bottom line: I want my kids to know they can come to me and I will take action, immediately, so they never have to feel alone.
PS The writer seemed half-hearted in dealing with the bullies [I didn't want them to get arrested, I just wanted them to stop]. That was a major mistake. No repercussions so more bullies pile on.
A more (but probably still imperfect) description of Catholic doctrine would be repentance + forgiveness = reconciliation; either repentance of forgiveness on their own is incomplete, but not undesirable for the party doing it .
> I guess I was fortunate that I was taught forgiveness without genuine repentance on the other side is pointless, and generally not something to do.
> Catholic doctrine, if I remember correctly.
?!?! That's not Catholic doctrine at all. Not that it's well practiced, but Catholics are taught to forgive, period. That doesn't mean forget. Trust, once lost, can be hard to earn back depending on how it was lost. Someone who beats you up can be forgiven, and you can still go out of your way to avoid them or to never let them stand behind you.
I think you have to judge each case on its merits.
The sure fire way to beat a bully though is to stand up to them and let them know that what ever they throw at you, you'll throw twice as much back. They will not win.
Some bullying stops if you just ignore it and make it "not fun anymore" for the bully. But it all depends on the individual circumstances.
The hilarious things kids have discovered is that bullying in groups is even more fun. Fighting back just makes it funnier. Laughing and participating means being in on the joke and out of the spotlight. Standing up may be the worst thing you can do.
As I said in my other comment, I don't really have answers to how to solve it. I just know that from my experience I ended up knocked out and hospitalized with a fracture in my skull from having my head kicked in by a group of teenagers. A friend of mine was jumped and beaten into a coma for six months. I've read about kids in the newspapers stabbed to death, gang raped while passed out, and worse. I don't think any amount of rage you can throw at the situation will make it better for you if you're being bullied by more than one person.
"Standing up," may work in some scenarios but in those which the OP and I are familiar with it's pointless at best and dangerous at worst.
Update All I did was skip school and show up for tests. Maybe leaving is the only option for some kids.
As the parent said, it needs to be a disproportional response. I mean REALLY out of line.
One time a friend of mine got jumped by six dudes. He was able to defend himself by taking a pencil out of his pocket and jamming it right into an eye socket. The other kid literally lost his eye. The fighting immediately stopped and nobody messed with my friend again.
Yes, I absolutely agree. Ignoring never worked, it only made it more fun and challenging for me. The best way to stop a bully is to punch them in the face early on and make them think twice about considering you a target.
For me, I deal with crowds of jerks by concentrating on the first person to insult - and announceing it. I've diffused physical violence against me by a crowd by announcing that the "first person who attacks me will receive all my wrath."
I agree... IMHO, parents should be legally responsible for the behaviour of their children. That is, if their child harasses someone, the parents should be prosecuted for harassment. If their child steals, prosecute the parent.
The majority of parents are good, and instil a good sense of morals into their children, but there's always those parents that either do not care, or decide to make their children rude evil little things.
The logical outcome of that approach is that all parents remove their children from school, because otherwise they risk being held responsible for behavior over which they cannot have any control over.
This might not be such a bad thing.
Edit: Downvoters? Consider a minority family. Think how easy it would be to goad of otherwise trick a child into doing something that could be legally actionable. Think about the already racially biased access to justice.
Truancy is illegal, and homeschooling is not an option in many Western countries. So these parents will not be able to take their kids out of school...
So if you make parents legally liable for kids actions and then take the kids to an environment where the parents have no control or visibility, you are creating a nightmare of oppression.
That's why there is a legal term 'in loco parentis' which is applied to schools.
If "in loco parentis" means schools taking the role of parents, then they've certainly done a bad job of taking care of their "kids", at least in the United States...
It is in a society where parents have so little control over their children, where e.g. there is great debate over mild corporal punishment and using it can get your kids taken away.
As a dad with young kids, I can assure you that if this were to happen to them, I'd wage all-out cyberwar, on the kids and any parents that didn't properly curtail their child's behavior after official notifications. From doxing and redialing faxes to bully-vision youtube channels naming and shaming their family. It isn't slander if it's true…
I've made it 100% clear to my kids that I've got their backs. It's my duty as a dad.
Edit: Yes, this story obviously struck a nerve for me. I was bullied as a 12yo kid for a few months. I was a good kid, and did well in school, which made me the outlier.
I remember how terrified I was when the bell rang at the end of the school day, knowing that the pests would be waiting for me on the way home.
I also vividly remember the day my dad took me aside and simply said: "Go ahead. You have my permission to make them feel sorry. I have your back. Just don't do it on school property."
The day I took action was a truly glorious and empowering day. Hearing my dad tell their parents afterwards they had it coming, supported by some photographic proof of damage caused in the past, was even better. Upside: nobody ever bothered me again.
This happened a long time ago, and not in the litigious USA where money and lawsuits get off every bullying 'precious snowflake', yet I'm certain I'd take that risk today, if official channels failed to ensure the (mental) well-being of my children.