Really interesting read on how much interaction HN brings. There is a lot to be said for quality over quantity when it comes to page views.
I believe you are wrong about dismissing that top comment in the other post as snarky, negative and useless. That comment has a lot of very useful information from someone who appears to have been doing the Thailand thing longer than you have.
1) Thai law was brought up a number of times and you do appear to be violating it. This is probably something that needs to be said.
2) You mention how cheap it is while he believes its more expensive, but you may have gotten a good deal or stayed in areas that others wouldn't want to. It's your experience vs his; I see no reason to dismiss him as 'snark'.
3) He shares a number of anecdotes (sex workers, etc) that differ from your anecdotes. Thailand is a big place, you can both be right, and the more information the better.
It's somewhat apt that a snarky, non-factual comment attacking the author like this has risen to the top once again.
> One of the annoying parts of this article was that the author dismissed the comment as "non-factual" without providing any evidence or explanation.
He didn't dismiss the comment as non-factual without providing any evidence or explanation. If read carefully, he:
* stated the other commenters called it out as non-factual (it appears at least one commenter did do that[1])
* claimed half of the dispute could be attributed to not reading the post carefully
* provided an example of where the top comment was mistaken or misread (commenter focused on Bangkok when the original story explicitly stated Bangkok was a bad place to live)
* offered up an example of a comment that he believed to be factual (the second-to-the-top one[1])
> Apparently whenever someone writes something that the author disagrees with, it is automatically categorized as snark.
No, it isn't. But this sentence here—where an author's attentions are sarcastically and baselessly mischaracterized off of a misreading (or lack of reading?) of his or her post would definitely qualify as snark.
The original comment wasn't attacking the author, it was simply stating that while many people seemed excited at the prospect of flying off to Thailand (one person even emailed the author after booking tickets) that they should slow down and consider the expenses and lifestyle changes involved. His response was clearly intended to be humorous, but that doesn't mean that it was intended to reflect negatively on the author. His experience was that Thailand was an expensive place to live, I don't understand how you interpret that as an attack against the author. Like other people have mentioned, Thailand is a rather large place.
>He didn't merely dismiss the comment.
In his article, he only mentioned that he and many others felt that the comment was inaccurate. That doesn't constitute evidence or explanation. If you are stating something as a position in an article, it makes sense to present at least a modicum of support for that position within the article itself. Sure, you can cite sources, but in this case, his citation amounts to "some other people said that the statement I'm about to make is correct."
I agree that it wasn't written in a formal, etiquette-laden tone, but I didn't find it to be malicious or insulting. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
We can certainly agree to disagree. But as has been pointed out, the following wasn't really necessary:
> Before your pop your Macbook Air in a backpack, read my points.
> Yes, you can live in a concrete block with plastic furniture and eat noodles on the street every day.
> Once you're sick of your local noodle vendor you'll find food prices quite high as well.
> If you can stomach the local swill (think Budweiser without the quality control) knock yourself out.
> When you're sick of taking taxis and the BTS/MRT, have fun buying a car at 50% - 300% above US prices.
> If you really want to fake it here it means constantly traveling in and out of the country.
> To not do it properly means breaking the law in a country where you most likely don't speak the language. Have fun with that.
> If it's not someone you've known for a decade then, well, good luck with that.
I think it's worthwhile quoting the HN guidelines, because they are simple to follow and increase the quality if discussions here:
Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation.
When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." [1]
Maybe some exuberant HN stories need a counterpoint and that's the purpose served by those negative #1 comments. The top comment probably isn't as important as it appears. When I read comments I usually read more than one.
I do think they could sometimes be more nicely phrased, taking into account that the author of the post being commented on will often read the critical comments, as opposed to only third party readers.
But generally I agree, as a reader the critical comments are often the more useful ones. Shortcomings of a post, pointers to existing products that already do what a given product does better (or at least differently), etc. are all useful things to know, even if I don't always agree with them. Whereas congratulations and statements of agreement are rarely that informative, unless they come with additional information expanding on the original post.
Part of the trickiness, imo, is that HN comments occupy an odd in-between space, between blog comments (which are clearly responding to the author on their own blog), and third-party mailing-list discussions about an article from outside the mailing list (which are typically not addressed to the author, and are for the benefit of the discussants).
The collapsing comments feature, of the chrome extension I use, has also helped me actually read through comments without getting side-tracked with endless pedantic debates. You can find a lot of good perspectives below the first thread.
Which extension is that? This sounds like a great feature. Sometimes it's hard to tell whether a lower comment is a new thread or part of the same one.
> I believe you are wrong about dismissing that top comment in the other post as snarky, negative and useless.
Point of order here: he never used the word "useless". He also didn't dismiss the post for being negative (he said "I’m not against negative top comments per se but they should at least be factual").
> 1) Thai law was brought up a number of times and you do appear to be violating it. This is probably something that needs to be said.
You're definitely right at least in part: the law should be mentioned. People shouldn't be heading to Thailand without understanding the immigration laws beforehand.
But I don't think accusations that the author is violating the law need to be said. Unless the commenter is a lawyer who specializes in Thai immigration, he or she is simply not qualified to make that assessment. For all we know as readers, he could've unintentionally omitted or oversimplified parts of his above-the-board visa process.
> 2) You mention how cheap it is while he believes its more expensive, but you may have gotten a good deal or stayed in areas that others wouldn't want to.
The author explicitly mentions avoiding Bangkok in his article. The comment in question focused primarily on his experiences in Bangkok. The top commenter was calling him out on something the author agrees with and could've been avoided had the commenter read a bit more carefully.
> 3) He shares a number of anecdotes (sex workers, etc) that differ from your anecdotes. Thailand is a big place, you can both be right, and the more information the better.
Mere disagreement while providing anecdotes is fine and should be expected in a discussion forum. But that's not all the top commenter did. He couched his differing anecdotal experiences with snarky one-liners that imply the author had no idea what he was talking about:
> Before your pop your Macbook Air in a backpack, read my points.
> Yes, you can live in a concrete block with plastic furniture and eat noodles on the street every day.
> Once you're sick of your local noodle vendor you'll find food prices quite high as well.
> If you can stomach the local swill (think Budweiser without the quality control) knock yourself out.
> When you're sick of taking taxis and the BTS/MRT, have fun buying a car at 50% - 300% above US prices.
> If you really want to fake it here it means constantly traveling in and out of the country.
> To not do it properly means breaking the law in a country where you most likely don't speak the language. Have fun with that.
> If it's not someone you've known for a decade then, well, good luck with that.
Those sentences are snark: sarcastic and snide assertions that do little more than to point out how much the author doesn't know when compared to the commenter. They're not needed, or they could've been phrased much more neutrally, if the goal is merely to compare and contrast two expatriate experiences in Thailand. There were a number of commenters who did do that:
"Those sentences are snark: sarcastic and snide assertions that do little more than to point out how much the author doesn't know when compared to the commenter. They're not needed, or they could've been phrased much more neutrally"
This. A thousand times this.
There are always arguments about thick and thin skin, but I can't find any value in being so snide about something.
I look at HN comments because I'm looking for balance and additional information, not to find someone trying to be That Guy, and prove how much more he knows than the initial author.
I value the content HN has in the way of articles posted and comments made, but the amount of vitriol I see is really disconcerting. I can stomach it, try to soak up the info and move on, but it's so unnecessary and rarely adds anything to the conversation.
I also should say that I totally get the impulse. I even half typed a sarcastic admonition at the end of this and then backspaced because it would have done nothing to add to the point.
As a side note, I think I've been inadvertently contributing to this by not more actively up-voting and adding to comments that I think are useful and constructive while hoping that my own comments get some traction.
Snark is one of the defenses we expats develop to deal with culture shock and/or adverse situations in our host country. I predict that the OP is an idealistic new comer while the top commenter is a grizzled old timer who is and will continue to be in Thailand for the long run (idealists barely last the year, at best two). I observe this happen in my host city (Beijing) often, I can tell who will last and who will just get the experience and leave soon.
When you have a bunch of idealistic yelling "come here, its perfect," you can't help but feel irked by it. But I think you are right, people should learn on their own; wisdom can't easily be transferred.
I am completely on board with pointing out where a blog post or comment went wrong. In this case, I'm even fine with saying that the post sounds idealistic. I just still think you can reply with a civil critique that at least tries to sound a little more objective and a little less vitriolic.
Reply with information, sources, or personal experiences, and try to put them out there with a little less venom. I get that it takes more time, and no one can expect that from everyone, but if the goal really is to educate and transfer wisdom, there has to be an understanding that it's not easy to do that and that couching the rhetoric with sarcasm is antithetical to the cause.
When I read the comments I want information and opinions. I don't want to have to contend with aggression and condescension.
I know that's all a bit starry eyed, and that there are few things that are absolute, this among them, but by and large that's how I feel about this sort of thing.
As a struggling writer, I value some amount of vitriolic/venom/sarcasm as color that can make an otherwise dry post read better; pure bland information alone is hard to digest without sugar or even grapefruit bitterness. I'm not able to do it very well, so I don't try, but I see value in those that can. The commenter's post was informative, colorful, and tasteful in my opinion, but I understand there are also people out there who are extremely sensitive and easily offended...like say those who find many flavors offensive and prefer blandness.
But as for my original point, I would always trust the snarker in this case over the harmonious river crab: based on my experience, the former's information is actually more useful than the latter's. Call it an imperfect generalization.
Yeah, I can understand that perspective, and I'm really conflicted about that kind of thing. I try to ascribe to a pragmatists view of it. I should say that I'm also not someone who has done a lot of formal study of communication and education, but I tend to think that abrasive language tends to stifle discourse to a point.
I'm amenable to the idea that it's got its place and that it can be useful. I just wonder how often it's useful compared to how often it's used.
To me it's a matter of figuring out whether or not you're really trying to educate as many people as you can, and which delivery method is most powerful for that goal. I think you can accomplish that without attacking someone else. Of course there's the idea that emotional responses can catalyze a more poignant memory, and as you say, draw more attention to your point.
shrug
And this is why I drink.
edit: (in reference to the response below) I should say that I've abstracted away from the concrete post that triggered all of this. Either way, this is the kind of dialogue I like. You can disagree on some things, get something out of it, and never have to get in anyone's face)
Fair enough. I could not pull off this style very tastefully myself, so I would avoid it. Also, the lines between bland, colorful, abrasive, and abusive are not clear and are drawn differently for different people.
I'm not sure if it is fair to say the commenter was "attacking someone" unless they were spewing out ad hominems, of which I didn't see any.
Well no one was gonna make the top comment snarky after he complained about how the top stories in Hacker News always have snarky comments. That's just letting him win.
You really have no idea how much of a time sink HN really is. If I said it took a fair portion of my day, it would be the biggest understatement of the year.
Nobody has yet given feedback on your landing page for Tubelytics (1), where you said only one person signed up from the HN post.
From my perspective there is simply nothing there(2), and 5 seconds looking at a static page is just not enough information for me to make a decision. That decision is not just to give you my email address, but to "sign-up", which is a huge step too far.
At the very least I need a "find out more" option, and I'd need that without having to give you my email address or other details.
You clearly write very well, so why not tell the Tubelytics story underneath the landing page. Let me scroll down and read the story, see the screenshots, hear about the use cases and experience the success stories.
By the time people get to the end they should know what the product is, how awesome it will be for them to use it, how much it costs and whether or not they will buy.
(Advanced) Ideally I could play with the product and even set it up with my youtube videos(3) without logging in, and once I experience the product then I can save the data by creating an account and, more likely, pay you.
So rather than not getting an email, perhaps there is a better way to get a paid sign-up.
(1) https://tubelytics.com
(2) I'm OSX Safari with flash block on
(3) I'm not a target customer
I agree with pretty much everything you said. Just revisited. Signing up for anything is a big commitment, especially when I don't even fully know what I'm signing up for.
For those of you who think you need a "good server" to be on the front page of hacker news, you're wrong. My blog hit #2 on HN and landed on the front page a few times in the last six months.
I have a Rackspace 256mb ram slice hosting Wordpress. No caching at all, none.
I also run, on the same server, a teamspeak server for a friend that still plays games.
I peaked at 290 simultaneous people reading my post. Teamspeak server was still working fine.
These numbers tell me I’ll have to completely change
the landing page as it’s not converting well.
Don't optimize your site for HN unless you want to spend the next two years crawling towards your first thousand users - YouTube publishers in significant numbers just don't hang out here. Most startups should take heed of those numbers[1] too before they design a content strategy around HN hoping that will give them traction.
[1] 15,000 uniques led to just 78 trials, 1 paid customer
So much truth here. You may have a perfect landing page and still have less than 1/2% conversion. An HN traffic spike is a vanity metric unless you're selling to developers (with the very outside chance you'll impress upon a VC or someone else that provides value to your business)
Yep. Conversion percentages for my site drop like a rock whenever I get significant HN traffic. And my site (http://letscodejavascript.com, a programming screencast) is directly relevant to the HN audience.
I'm not complaining—even if percentages go down, signups go up—but the lesson I've taken away is that, while HN traffic is nice, it's flash-in-the-pan stuff, and not something I should pursue as a primary strategy. I think I can get better bang-for-the-buck focusing on other things, and if my work occasionally catches HN's eye, all the better.
2. I agree with your point about the standard top comment on most Hacker News posts being contrarian. It can be very annoying, but having a strong dissenting voice also helps keep BS posts in check. I have noticed a lot more jokes as the top comments within posts though. I'm not sure if that's good or BSD. The first example that comes mind is a post titled 'You have a 0.000007% chance of becoming a billionaire'. The top rated comment was the common Reddit joke 'So you're saying I have a chance'.
Hacker News is strange... Post that describe a product that was built in a weekend manage to reach #1 all the time, but when I submit my project that I've been working on for more than a month, everyone collectively ignores is, and it receives 0 upvotes.
In a "weekend" peaks people's interest just like a 12 year old that raises money does.
My guess is that if you said "Look at what I built that took 15 years" that would peak people's interest.
Along those lines many things that appear on HN are really of the same quality as HN comments (just an opinion nothing particularly special) but since they appear as a post people focus on them and a discussion ensues and they get voted up more than the same exact thing appearing in a thread.
Join the party. Anyways, HN is probably not the best place to show off your project; these days its more about startup business, politics, and travel....a more refined reddit but not about hacking.
1) There are certain things that click with the majority of the HN audience (or at least the ones who up vote) and the weekend hacks go into this category
2) HN is unpredictable and some luck is involved. If you get a couple of up votes from people early, you are more likely to get more clicks from the /new page, which leads to more upvotes... Social proof, kind of.
It's not that. Just keep resubmitting the story, at the end of the url add a "#" so it counts as a brand new submittion.
It's all about timing. You can write a rockstar post and have it ignored one day, then resubmit it 4 times and finally get on the front page with 14,000 unique visitors in 24 hours.
I had my last post on the home page for almost a day. That spike in the viewers count and twitter feeds are probably the most notable effect out of it. If you need to spread any sort of awareness about any topic, HN seems to be a great way to do that, also the fact that so many other platforms pick up their news from HN only helps.
I wrote http://gitignore.io and I saw a lot more traffic and traction by posting a link to my website in Reddit's /r/git than I did on Hacker News. Have you tried posting on different mediums and comparing the results?
I enjoyed reading the report back. The author laid it out clearly and informatively. However the dismissal of the top HN comment, appears unfounded. [1]
It reads like a case of minimizing dissonance. In other words, it seems the author is attempting to rationalize away another person's viewpoint, by simply characterizing it as snark.
Some more probable explanations why the comment made it to #1, could have been:
- It felt authentic. "I've lived and built two companies in Thailand over the last 14 years."
- The answer expressed a contrary viewpoint, giving HN readers a more balanced view of the topic.
I know I'm not the only one to find it hilarious that for every single top-HN post you make, you can double the traffic by simply posting the status of each one.
As much flak as HN gets, I have found that it's the best source of traffic. My post yesterday about building a desk stayed at #2 for half a day and I got about 20,000 views with an average time of 40 seconds. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6566643
I think this post will receive the same amount of viewers than the last one, prepare your servers ! :)
Joke apart, your content is quite good, well redacted but you also have a nice and content-centered blog. It's far more readable than other blogs or academic papers and I think it's also thanks to this that you were featured. Keep posting your posts on HN !
Thanks
Front page for a day is not that hard, if you have something relevant and interesting. I think it is better to avoid direct description of your project, and choose unique scenario or good story. Also good idea is to run stress test on your site before.
I made it last year. I needed some feedback and early adopters, it was great to kick start small community. Also my project changed name and that post made it #1 result on Google in 3 weeks. There was handful of serious job offers as direct result of that post, last one 3 months latter.
It has been year since my last post on HN. My project is stable-enough, I have some pilot customers, and even made first profit this month. On other side I have only 50 twitter followers and no invitations to conferences. So I will probably hit HN again in a few weeks :-)
As a user, i interacted a lot on you're blog (read many articles and etc).
It's very well designed, has interesting content and it's easy to just read the next article.
It's probably one of the best blogs i've ever met (excellent place for your links (at the end of your article for a follow-up story).
And, you have converted me to the panda show. Great music!
So congrats and nice job :)
PS. You didn't convert a lot of your users, because it had nothing to do with Tubelytics. It was an awesome read, but probably missed your core audience attention :-) (personal opinion though).
This is all rippingly hilarious. Especially the last point about the mom. Then I read the Narcissus comment. And I lost it laughing. Yet the really funny part is that I don't think he sees himself as a Narcissus at all. He's pointing out some stats--out loud.
Honestly, I would have done exactly the same thing as him if I were in the same position.
I think however we as founders can easily get focused on tracking metrics that in the end amount to fairly trivial things. They help us make changes around the margins, which can payoff big or just be small gains.
I think what he did was a good exercise, however the whole post, analyze, post thing though is a tad navel gazing for my tastes.
Hey. Then if you don't really thing he was Narcissus tumbling into the reflective pool, why did you make the remark? I thought you were criticizes him. He wrote the article as an innocent analysis, like your reply to me said. A lot of good people are so insulated that they have no idea how they are viewed by others. And, to be fully analytical, I got voted 0 for my comment. : ) Which honestly, I'd rather have than a 100. It gives me challenge fodder for improvement.
This is a meta test piece also on the power of sequels ! Once people are sold on a story, you can double-down quite readily by a small incremental expenditure of work on the n+1 piece of information that enlightens/informs the previous one that people have a previous investment in (learning the plot/characters/setting, etc).
Good work !
_________
150+ points on HN
170+ comments on HN
280+ points on HN
90+ comments on HN
The sequel has ~2x upvotes, plus a better karma/comment ratio as well...
You deserve it and your luck was with you. Finally will say Lucky(2%),Work(49%)and Content(49%)makes your post #1. But i can understand this awesome feeling when you receive traffic more than your month in a single day. Keep going
I believe you are wrong about dismissing that top comment in the other post as snarky, negative and useless. That comment has a lot of very useful information from someone who appears to have been doing the Thailand thing longer than you have.
1) Thai law was brought up a number of times and you do appear to be violating it. This is probably something that needs to be said.
2) You mention how cheap it is while he believes its more expensive, but you may have gotten a good deal or stayed in areas that others wouldn't want to. It's your experience vs his; I see no reason to dismiss him as 'snark'.
3) He shares a number of anecdotes (sex workers, etc) that differ from your anecdotes. Thailand is a big place, you can both be right, and the more information the better.