I see value in both this comment and the one it answers. I'm just kind of trying to put myself in the position of sitting there in that audience, in my professional capacity (and probably in uncomfortable shoes...), and hearing "puerile" and "juvenile" jokes being whispered right behind me, possibly also with some muffled laughter.

Since I wasn't there, I don't know how it went down. But I can at least imagine how that could be a really, really uncomfortable situation--if in my head I am wondering if they are looking at me as they giggle--or really enraging, if it feels like these guys are treating our shared professional space as their private pizza-crust-carpeted beer-stinking bachelor pad living room.

I think their tone might really impact how I'd feel. Laughter can be super cruel. Or it can be innocent and not at all hurtful.

I'll admit it: I got teased mercilessly in middle school & high school for having big breasts. When I turned 18, I promptly had breast reduction surgery...yeah, they were that big, and I am very small-framed...yeah, there were good health reasons to do the surgery, but mainly my psyche was fucking bruised from having so much unwanted and often mean-spirited attention directed at my breasts. All through college, if I heard a group of guys laughing as I walked past, I'd get really self conscious and think they were probably looking at me and laughing about some aspect of my appearance...even though I'd had that surgery and now nothing much really stood out about me. I tell this little story because you have to understand...when you get hit on, teased, picked on, bullied, all throughout your adolescence, just because you're female, the snickering whispered laughter--and sexual jokes--of guys can make you feel very very uncomfortable and bad.

I have no idea if this is something like what happened to Adria Richards, but it sounds like it. She may or may not have misinterpreted the intended cruelty or degradation of the joking.

But the fact remains that none of this would have had a chance of happening if those two guys had behaved professionally in that environment. In the end, if someone got fired, I'd imagine it was the lack of professionalism that did it. Or the lack of good judgment.

When I was in middle and high school I was teased relentlessly also. I'm male so the teasing directed at me was not about my breasts, but it was still very vicious teasing.

I know exactly what you mean when you say "laughter can be super cruel". I still get a chill when I hear people laughing in the way I was laughed at, even when its not direct at me, even when its not direct at anyone but just sounds the same way.

But still I have a sense of decency, restraint, and a enough self-confidence now that I'm able to realize that the chill I feel is from a lingering bad memory and that I can act like an adult now and not feel bad because of cruel laughter. I feel like Adria Richards' reaction was deeply indecent, unrestrained, and revealed a profound lack of self-confidence.

I guess I just disagree with your interpretation of Richards' response. If you were made to feel that horrible chill while you were sitting in a professional space, if you thought about it and realized that the ones making you feel so uncomfortable really shouldn't behave that way in this environment, would you not have the right to speak up for yourself and say, "Hey, this is inappropriate, it's wrong, and it's not fair for these people to be making this space uncomfortable in this way?"

Maybe we just have to agree to disagree. That said, I'm sorry you got picked on, stranger. Fucking sucks, doesn't it? That shit's toxic, and it fucks with your head for a very long time. I am sending you an imaginary virtual hug.

I agree. However I still don't see how a "dongle" joke (regardless of conference policies) makes it to "sexism towards women" as appeared on the Richards' blog. I think the point is to say "I myself am not comfortable with this kinds of jokes, stop it". But making gender generalizations and "taking actions for the community"... well, this is sexist towards women and assumes no personal responsibility. I'm a woman, but I didn't appoint any "evangelist" to speak for me. It's actually more alienating then any off color jokes.

I just want to say I enjoy your input here. I obviously haven't experienced being teased and harassed over the size of my breasts, but I've been awfully close to the damage that causes (which is still very far away). It has had a profound impact on the way I see things, obviously. I really admire and appreciate you speaking out about it, and particularly the frankness and calm with which you've shared what undoubtedly must have been a really difficult decision for an 18-year-old in a society that seems excessively focused on defining sexual identity by what's hanging between a woman's shoulders and stomach. That couldn't have been easy.

I hope that none of my comments on this particular issue have created problems for you, particularly in my choice to make some rather stringent semantic and philosophical distinctions--e.g., between a sexist joke and an anatomical one.

Your final point here is quite in line with my basic sentiments on the appropriateness of the behavior in the given venue--a very poor choice that has, regrettably, resulted in some very unfortunate (and, I think, unwarranted) consequences.

Anyway, thanks again. I hope life has measurably improved since those earlier years.

Do you think that an observer should find those to be different? Bear in mind that at least one observer didn't experience them as different, and went into detail as why.

You cannot take into consideration erroneous assumptions or false knowledge.

Based on what words mean, and the definition of terms (see the comment you replied to), it doesn't matter if someone interpreted it wrong. Anyone can always interpret something wrong and find themselves offended. But that's all on them. It's not productive to go around worrying about that.

"wrong", "erroneous", "false" are strong terms (IMHO, far too strong) for someone having a different perspective and history of dealing with such comments. And IMHO it is productive to try to understand these perspectives.

a person's perspective is not a free pass on matters of factuality. a fact is a fact, regardless of any person's perspective.

you may be right that we should try to understand why a person has developed a false understanding of reality, but we should not accept that their own misunderstanding of facts in any way makes their false beliefs into truths.

FALSE. A sexist joke is a joke that tries to find humor in the degradation of one of the genders.

Why do you assume sexism consists in degradation of _women_? That, itself, is sexist, as most feminists are. Sexist and hypocritical.