This is what it felt like to be suicidal: Imagine the worst heartbreak you have ever felt, and multiply this by ten. Imagine the worst anxiety you have ever suffered and multiply this by ten. Imagine that every second feels like a minute, in each of those minute-long-seconds, you feel like a lion is just about to jump out from around the corner and rip you apart slowly. Imagine that everything you used to enjoy is meaningless and nothing at all is fun or enjoyable. Imagine that both your parents just died in a horrible car crash right after disinheriting you because they felt you were a terrible disgrace. Imagine that you constantly obsess on what it was you did so wrong, and what you might have done differently. Imagine repeatedly reliving every word you can remember saying to them with a terrible and critical eye, and repeating to yourself every harsh word they ever said to you. Imagine that you can't think of anything else at all no matter how hard you try, and these obsessive thoughts just spin in your head over and over and over and over and over and over again with no relief. Imagine that all these feelings just go on and on and on and on and on and on, for hours, days, weeks, months, with no relief. Unrelenting torment and misery with no escape, no out, no one who can understand you, no one who can calm you, no one who can make anything the slightest bit better.

Imagine that the only reason that you didn't kill yourself in order to end this interminable torment is because you figured you'd fuck even that up and just end up a quadriplegic, and then be truly screwed, since you'd never be able to end your eternal misery then.

The strange part is, I can kind of get into my past self's head and replay all of my reasons, but from my current perspective they seem corrupted and perverse. I know that I was trying to escape from my own twisted feelings of guilt, but the whole episode seems almost surreal now; me yet not me.

Another interesting thing that I'd never considered before is that I have a very high pain tolerance and fearlessness. I've always suspected that my grandfather, whom I take after quite a bit in this respect, decided to stop taking his medication after my grandmother died.

Thank you for sharing. I was wondering would it make a difference at all if someone else, (a friend, therapist, partner) would say how the current perspective is corrupted or warped. Would that make a difference? Would it help in that situation? If not, what does help, if anything to get out of that mode?

In the depressed mentality, you are 100% sure of your convictions. That's why you know that life isn't worth living. Anyone telling you things counter to your ideas is either lying or deluded or just plain naive. SSRIs are nothing more than "happy pills" that cloud your judgment and turn you into a stranger to yourself; basically lies in pill form.

Depression in full flower is an air-tight system that allows nothing contrary in, roughly equivalent to being in a cult, so cracking through the armor is difficult, indeed! The only way I can think of that could work (other than the person figuring it out for themselves) is to (a) be known and respected by them, (b) have experience with severe depression yourself so that they know you've been there, and (c) keep gently pushing them forward after the initial bluntness. Just getting a depressed person to see a shrink would be a huge accomplishment. Getting them to stay on SSRIs is another huge accomplishment (I haven't helped anyone with the first, but I have kept a friend going with the second).

For me personally, I keep mental snapshots of my baseline emotional state so that I have something to compare against. It's a kind of early warning system for when I'm falling so I can catch myself. Just realizing that my current sadness is of a purely chemical cause helps me get out of it sooner (within hours rather than days or even weeks). There are, of course, times of honest, real sadness, like anyone else gets, but they have a different feel. I can't explain the difference, but I can recognize it.

I'm currently developing some software to assist in that, by tracking your mood, amount of sleep, and other factors. The idea is that when things start moving away from your "normal" state it can trigger some alerts - something like Pingdom for your loved ones.

It's not ready for public use yet, but if anyone would be interested in trying out an early version when it is ready feel free to drop me a message on the email address in my profile, and I'll let you know.

PS: This might be because it's a stupid tattoo to begin with.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_too_shall_pass

And Tool "Reflection", especially "And as I pull my head out I am without one doubt, Don't want to be down here feeding my narcissism, I must crucify the ego before it's far too late" which is of course a bit long to have it tattoo'ed but the idea, how narcissistic it actually is what you are doing... and how you must crucify this ego, this part of you, to find your true self and find peace.

My wife suffers from bipolar disorder, which is mostly characterised in her by periods of intense depression, which in her case can at times lead to making conclusions that externally make no sense at all. Things like "I'm going to kill myself because it will make life better for you. You can stop looking after me and go and find someone normal and have a happy life." She'll tell me these things completely seriously, as if its the only possible conclusion that could be come to given the available facts.

No amount of talking that over, and explaining how precisely the opposite would happen, will change her mind. The best I can do is to get her into hospital until the depression passes.

I imagine for straight depression, especially where it is more situational than chemical, and depending upon the person, it may be possible to look at things rationally and persuade them that there are other options. I would advise to be incredibly careful doing that though, since they may sit and agree with you just to reassure you and get you out of the way.

> I would advise to be incredibly careful doing that though, since they may sit and agree with you just to reassure you and get you out of the way.

That is an interesting perspective. I have seen that happen. They wouldn't want to upset me or make me feel like a burden or a failure for not successfully helping them, so I would gets agreements and assurances but I could tell there were not genuine.

Sometimes persuading them to do something else, sometime different, just being in a different place helps temporarily of course in that state people don't want to do anything or go anywhere, so that doesn't always work.

Being deeply depressed is like having a burden/cloud over your head, you can't think straight because all those issues are just sitting there in the background, blocking normal thoughts.

Once you come out of it, you don't really recognize the depressed individual that was running on auto pilot. That's my take on it anyway.

Let's assume you are a very avid programmer and love nothing more than coding and to you it is the most natural thing in the world, then let's assume someone comes along and tells you your view is just warped, corrupted and you have no idea what you are talking about. However clumsy that analogy is, how would you feel in that situation? Would your first, intuitive gut reaction be "You know, they might be right...I should have become a doctor or a lawyer and that's what I am going to do right now!"? Chances are you would feel affronted, offended and ultimately like the person does not understand you and has no idea what they are talking about. Completely regardless of whether they might be on to something and a different career choice might be "better", mind you. We only observe what your reaction would be to someone basically trampling on your view of the world.

From my point of view and self-observations, when you are severely depressed or suicidal, that is your view of the world and suffering from it, you have a hundred million reasons and scenarios played out in your head just why you are absolutely right to feel the way you do, why you deserve to be miserable and why you have no business being here anymore or why your only escape is to leave. The very fact that it has become so ingrained in you and you cannot just "flip a switch" and think and feel differently, that is the very thing that makes it depression and suicidal thoughts, that you CANNOT just magically escape because you are a world champion in convincing yourself why you are right to feel the way you do. Now along comes someone and tells you "You are just imagining that, people react very positive towards you, you are such a nice person! Your view is just warped, you are making it harder on yourself...". Now, how would that make you feel?

For me, it feels like my issues were not appreciated and the other person just does not understand the extent of my torment, they cannot relate, they don't understand anyway... see, nobody understands. At the same time, I know how egotistical and self-centered and warped that view is; I have a strange analytical way of looking at myself, it surprises even counselors. Yet, I could not change a single thing. Either I am watching, armchair analyzing myself like a lab rat or I am "in character" and suffering. Anyone telling me my view is "warped" usually ends up causing a huge quarrel because no matter how much I try to make them understand, of course they counter every point I throw at them to "fix me" and that soon leads to anger and feeling even worse because CLEARLY nobody understands me! Of course this is just my point of view, mind you.

What CAN you do or say? I think stop trying to convince them they are wrong; stop trying to "flip a switch", no matter how much you try with the very best intentions and your deepest love, you won't find a switch or the right combination of logic reasoning to just "snap the person out of it". I know this must be terrible to hear if you watch someone you love suffer like that, I am sorry. I can honestly not think of a better thing to do... don't push them in any direction or look for switches to flip, also don't belittle it like "you'll get better!" or "nah it can't be that bad!". I think just give them emotional support, hug, hold, let them cry, share honest(!) compassion... above anything, don't try to fix but be there and show them support in that way. Don't give them up, keep inviting them out or offering to come over even after they have said "no" or made up some excuse the last 5 times. Also, don't take some offensive words they say or tantrums they throw too serious. Generally try to not judge a depressed person too quickly, even if they are acting like major assholes... it's just more a passive-aggressive desperate cry for help, feel mercy for them, like for a wounded animal snarling.

Last and most importantly, speaking out of my own experience and I know this will not sound like a popular suggestion but I think it is vital: be selfish enough to not give too much of yourself! You can only get very emotionally invested and involved in a depressed person for so long before it can strongly affect you and seriously spin you out of control when their emotional abyss starts to sound all too logical and convincing and all of a sudden you find yourself staring down the same hole. Be wary of that, you have every right to, don't feel bad about protecting yourself - much like fire fighters won't blindly risk their own life. Never think that it is your role to "fix them"! Your role, if anything, is to just support however much you see fit and are able to safely give - it is a professional's role to provide them with ways of healing and "fixing" and they have their own ways of coping with it. I know for myself, when I see it in a person, I intentionally wall-off and protect myself because I know, I am in no safe position to take on more emotional baggage. It took me a LONG time to realize this and do this to protect myself. I know this sounds incredibly selfish but I know why I am doing this and I think everyone involved with a suicidal person should think about this too. Get them professional help.

Small things that seem to do wonders for me: taking a walk, go have a few beers with good friends and cleaning up my place. You can help with that and I think it does wonders, considering how little it is that you are actually doing. I think it is the thought of making something better with your own hands that can create quite a positive pull. And there is no shortage of little exercises your counselor can suggest or asks you to do. Seemingly silly things like writing down a few good qualities about yourself, things you are good at.

It is interesting that it is possible to be so introspective and at the same time for it not to help. In a certain way that is one of the common approaches in therapy. Let patients confront their irrational persistent thoughts. Would you say that this ability confers an immunity to therapy?

> stop trying to "flip a switch", no matter how much you try with the very best intentions and your deepest love

Yeah that is really the first instinct. I've been on both sides of it, and still (wrongly) think that it would work, even though it didn't seem to work before.

I'll have to try the show of support. That makes sense, thank you for suggestion. Looking back, getting out and changing the physical surroundings sometimes make a difference in the mental state.

> I think it is the thought of making something better with your own hands that can create quite a positive pull.

That makes a lot of sense. Some people are better at providing that. It is the personality and demeanor too perhaps -- just being with them, creates a better state.

Thank again you for sharing.

>Would you say that this ability confers an immunity to therapy?

I assume you are talking about me basically over-analyzing myself and it not helping me? The curious thing really is, I think ultimately I am just doing what most depressed people are doing, digging myself in further. When before trying therapy, I felt depressed and always sort-of out of place and "wrong", now I have no shortage of "proof" how broken I am, even by design/bringing up. When before, my issues were more in the here and now, it sort of spiraled into "everything has been wrong from the very start because those are the conditions I grew up under and missed out on this,this,this etc....". A more "sophisticated" kind of very toxic thinking and turning in circles,in cycles, if you will. If this ultimately works for or against therapy or bettering oneself, I cannot say. So far I think it has had some things easier, understanding connections or correlations; and some things harder, like this toxic thinking. But instead of that I might be circling over something else if I wasn't over-analyzing.

I think the confronting part does help because you become more aware of what's going on, otherwise you are almost at the mercy of whatever pattern you are following. The biggest "wow" or almost relief was reading about other people with similar thoughts and problems. Of course I wouldn't have doubted there are others out there before - but reading about it and in detail, how someone else says things you have felt or thought 100% the same, was an interesting and calming experience. Like FINALLY someone gets it.

I've battled depression in the past, but I don't think I ever quite reached a suicidal state. The way I got out of my depression state, was to finally admit that I can't keep suffering in my current life situation anymore, and to get away from the things that were causing my anguish, anxiety, stress, and despair. I spent the next two months doing utterly nothing (well at least, nothing productive), slowly becoming healthy again.

You definitely had it much worse than me, and so I want to ask sincerely, what if anything, got you out of your depression/suicidal state of mind? Or alternately, what has helped you manage these urges and emotions?

Only one thing helped: Remeron. I was better in a day and only needed to be on it for a month.

I had previously tried many different anti-depressants, but I am very sensitive to such things and I could not tolerate any of them. The only one that I could tolerate was Trazedone, which didn't work all that well, and was giving me priapisms, so I had to stop.

As it was, I could not tolerate Remeron on its own; it would give me vivid dreams all night long, as do many antidepressants. This is the last thing you want when you are depressed as the dreams are usually vivid hells.

In order to sleep well while on Remeron, I had to take Klonopin, which is like Valium. As it turns out, I only had to take Remeron for a month, but by then I had a residual dependency on Klonpin. I didn't really need the Klonopin anymore as I was no longer anxious, but if I tried to taper off of it, I'd have terrible withdrawal symptoms.

I did eventually get off of the Klonopin, but it took my five years of slowly tapering. And trust me, even going that slowly, tapering off of a benzo is no fun at all!

So, for me, depression feels very similar to what both darius and the original article were saying. It's like an erupting storm. It starts with something small -- some tiny failure which a normal person might say "okay, no biggie, I can deal with that." My problem was the multiplication. We have associative memories, and I as a depressed person immediately associated this failure with other recent failures, which associated with others, and others, until there was a deluge of connections. It feels like a literal suffocation by failure -- I mean it becomes hard to breathe and there is often an ache across my chest.

There was often a growing sense of paranoia -- that they would all find out. What they would all find out was not terribly clear, but it was something as simple as "I am useless" or "I'll never live up to any of their expectations." (If you've never suffered from depression you might even wonder why this is a bad thing -- but that sort of metanarrative doesn't happen when you're depressed because it's just obviously bad, it's rejection, and rejection is painful emotionally, and there is no reflection.)

And so each thing triggers other things, until I am just left with this deep feeling that I have failed as a human, like everyone else has this thing going for them and I simply do not, and my only normalcy comes from the lucky fact that most of them are not paying any attention to me, which is also sad in its own way.

I live a much less stressful life now, and that helps. I try not to commit myself to any futures -- I tell people that I don't make plans per se but only resolves, so that I am sure of the direction that I'm sailing, but not what I will find. That helps with avoiding that seed of failure from which the storm starts.

As for the storm itself, I've found that deep breathing does more good than you'd expect, because if you're focused on your breathing then you're not associating those thoughts so much; the thoughts still swim around your head but they don't breed new ones so much, and you can kind of quietly nod at them without indulging them. This gives me a better sense of the objects around me, which actually seem to totally disappear as I disappear into myself.

But sometimes, I will confess, I feel duty-bound to be honest to my younger self. And so sometimes when those seeds start, even these days when I can cope, I do just let them expand and expand until I cry myself to sleep. I feel oddly at home there, as if this is some permanent part of myself which I'm oddly glad I haven't lost. But because this is now a choice, and it's voluntary, I no longer feel suicidal during these periods -- just awful.

This is ... strikingly and surprisingly similar to what I recall going through (so similar in fact that reading it made my chest feel hotter): a feeling of uselessness, of under-performing, of feeling "stuck" in a situation where I was doomed to continue to fail.

> I live a much less stressful life now, and that helps. I try not to commit myself to any futures -- I tell people that I don't make plans per se but only resolves, so that I am sure of the direction that I'm sailing, but not what I will find.

Even your current outlook reminds me of that of my own.

Though my time in this state was the most painful time in my life. These days I can look back at it as a blessing. I feel that my failures and struggles have instilled a stronger sense of 'balance' in my life and forward outlook. Most importantly, I feel that I can sense others having a difficult time much more acutely than before. It's really made helping myself and others avoid this kind of stress/suffering a priority and cause in my life -- in fact, the only cause I feel deeply passionate about.

I had been working at a large software company for several years. I was in kind of an oddball group, doing miscellaneous web development. For the most part, it was fun. The team became like a family for a time.

The constant re-orgs were stressful, though. That was like having to re-interview for my own job every ten months or so. I have done 3D graphics programming on my own time for about 20 years, and I always told myself that one day I would find a way to do that for a living. Setting up a very high expectation - kind of like wanting to be the lead guitarist in a band.

I tried to interview for any graphics job I could find, during my four years at the company. I never got an offer. Eventually, there were so many re-orgs, that most of my friend-co-workers had moved on to other teams. I decided to quit and work on a game, doing what I love. Technically, that went amazingly well. But from a design standpoint, it never quite gelled.

Then my relationship failed at the worst possible time. Then I exhausted my runway. I interviewed with goog and failed (more high expectations). I interviewed with a startup for a graphics position and it seemed to go very well!! But then baggage from that failed relationship, and doubt, stopped me from relocating during a critical window.

Then came crippling anxiety and horrible depression. My life seemed to go from amazing to over in only a few months. Friends grew distant and didn't know what to do for me. I couldn't face anybody. I stopped taking any calls. It felt like life was trying to tell me "Go home. You lost the privilege of playing with the grown-ups."

Sad to say, I am still "down in it". I had to move "back home," which is an isolated place. I haven't written much code in months. Despite having been a programmer for 20 years, I fear I won't be able to pass anymore technical interviews. Rationally, I know I am a very good and accomplished developer, and I know that everyone who has worked with me would say the same; but I'm extremely anxious about approaching the job search and the interviews anymore. One day I will find the motivation and the nerve to start over again.

Focus on something small and achievable, and achieve it. Even if it's just goddamn FizzBuzz. Reverse a linked list, and messsage one old friend on facebook to have lunch. That's it. Just do something small. It cuts off the downward spiral, and establishes momentum in the right direction.

It's interesting that you and someone else here don't recognise those symptoms. But when I deconstruct my wife's experience of suicidal ideation, the article's summary match what I observed pretty closely, in terms of the escalation. She left her job due to latent anxiety, had mental health issues, blamed herself strongly, this turned out to stem from a teenage trauma I'd known nothing about. There more anxiety, drinking, an overdose and a very scary amount of "disinhibition". In the end a 3-day stay in a secure ward and lots of drugs was the start of a slow recovery.

It doesn't describe her mental state. I don't think I knew it well enough, and I'm not sure she'd be able to tell it to you, as your own pain is clearly hard enough to put into words.

But from the outside, I know what I saw, and that article covers. If you know or support someone with mental health problems, you'd do well to think about their behaviour in terms of those categories.

[an HN regular with a throwaway account]

I think he touches on a lot of the points you mentioned:

> every second feels like a minute

> you constantly obsess on what it was you did so wrong

> they felt you were a terrible disgrace

That sounds like deconstruction, negative affect, self-blame and 'falling short of standards'. It can be hard to quantify what you just instinctively feel by yourself. A lot of my time with my therapist is basically me rambling about an abstract feeling, and her relating and summing it up in one or two words. I think it helps me better understand what's going on, which can take some of the power away from the raw emotion.

Talking to someone about it is the best way to start getting better.

Anyone who has any inkling of how much real tangible pain your own brain can put you in, would never question why someone might commit suicide. There are times when not doing so requires incredible strength and perseverance. Either that, or not even having the wherewithal anymore to take your own life.

I did talk to people at the time until I was blue in the face. That did not help either, except for the moments in which I was talking.

Only one thing helped break the vicious cycle: Remeron. I was better within a day, and I only had to take it for a month. Brain chemistry is a bitch!

Oh man. This struck way too close to home, as it is was the biggest reason I didn't actually go through with suicide when I was at the darkest point in life. That feeling that you can't do anything right, even ending your already frail and delicate life: I don't know of many things more disheartening than that.

Your description of how it feels to be suicidal is very well written and probably the most accurate summary I have read in this regards.

Those days when I would just sit in the corner of my room staring at a blank wall for ... the whole day ... not fun.

PS: I eventually got better and have remained such for years

I don't think this fact has a lot of bearing on this article, though. I feel like these criticisms are just an unfortunate manifestation of HN's tendancy to be contrarian. They're not effective rebuttals; they're just "Wait, I have feelings, too!"

Furthermore, being sad/depressed/suicidal really shouldn't be a contest, and the way I experience isn't necessarily going to be the same as the way you experience it. This article articulates a lot of my own experience. I'm sorry/glad that it doesn't match your experience.

Pretty much. I've learned to read HN comments largely as a source of data, rather than as a community of merit. This kind of pot-stirring has happened every time anyone of significance in the tech community has committed suicide. It's just self-aggrandizing.

I took a different direction completely. I became enraged at all the people in my life who led me to thinking this way, who destroyed my passion for what I loved, for taking it away from me, and making me feel so obligated to them, while getting nothing in return. I rejected the thought of no future and mentally put myself in a new one.

I became a recluse and shut everyone out of my life, and then I moved to another state 600 miles away. I didn't tell anyone I was leaving, except my parents, I told them I was taking a vacation, just so they wouldn't file a missing persons report, but honestly, it would have taken them weeks to realize I was gone, that's how little we talked. I have a better relationship with my parents now, but that's probably because of the distance. We only talk every few months, and they know if they attempt to assert any control over my life I would have no problem cutting off contact with them. I don't talk to my siblings, and I haven't contacted anyone else from my past since.

Whether I'm missed by anyone aside from my immediate family. I doubt it, and I don't care either.

The experience was liberating to me. I live for myself and don't allow baseless obligations to dictate any decisions I make. I don't allow my decisions to be dictated by how others will judge me.

I tend to think there's not a lot of value in talking publicly about suicide due to the Werther effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide), and I know that for my own part reading about suicide tends to reinvigorate some pretty unfortunate cognitive patterns. But since we're already on the subject, I share this article. Bering articulates very well the experience of wanting to do yourself in. For folks who don't experience it, this might help you understand. For folks who do, maybe understanding it better will help you get past it. Don't let your depression win.

This x 1000. Personally I would love to and end to the recent deluge of articles touching on / talking about suicide. Awareness of the issues surrounding the aaronsw case are important, yes, but too much suicide talk is not healthy, IMO.

Even if you've had suicide attempts and ongoing depression, it is something you can get past. It all depends on where you are in your life.

If its triggering for you, avoid it for your own mental health. But others still might want to discuss, analyze and come to terms.

That is screwed up. Reading these comments and Aaron's death is pretty hard. I hope it really helps some by having a place to share and discuss but just reading and thinking about _it_ is dangerous. Can't explain it, it is messing me with head too.

That sounds very likely to me, but given my utter inexperience with suicidal thoughts or acquaintances, I'm wondering if there is any proper evidence corroborating it. What percentage of suicides are evaluated critically? Obviously, "evaluated critically" is difficult to define, let alone measure, but I'd like to see any studies done in this area.

I can, however, answer this anecdote with another anecdote. I've been dealing with suicidal thoughts for about 5 years, and at some points some very limited self-harm. On an earlier post, I detailed what I thought was my most frightening, closest-to-suicide moment.

> The scariest, closest to suicide moment I ever experienced was when I was shopping at a mall. It wasn't very busy, and I was feeling very... manic might be the word. Head down, headphones in, speed walking between errands. I had to keep moving, no matter what. I noticed the sort-of cut-away in the floor, so you could see from the top floor down to the ground. It was only 3 stories, but I had a really strong, sudden impulse to vault over the railing and see what it would do to me. Maybe I could land on my head, that might work. It was something I had never really considered before, it wasn't a very efficient way to do things, but it just gripped me very suddenly and all of a sudden it was a huge crisis. Being suicidal, generally, is death by a thousand cuts. You have a predisposition, and all the stresses in life push you in that direction (as you've said). But the jumping off the ledge moment is crucial; personally, I have strategies for daily temptations like putting away knives in the kitchen. It's the spur of something unexpected, the sudden, strong, irrational impulse that really scares me.

I always thought the difference between a suicidal person and a normal person was that a normal person would have those thoughts, but they would inspire great fear, where as a suicidal person would experience those thoughts and not experience the corresponding revulsion.

Thinking back to when I was 13 and suicidal, the big difference is that now, when I'm mentally healthy, it's a "What if I...?" thought, while back then it was an "I should..." thought. I remember looking out my front door at the traffic going by in the street and thinking "If I just run outside and into the road in front of a car, it'll all be over." And it was like I got tunnel vision, like that impulse was all the universe consisted of. It's like the article said, about thoughts tending toward concreteness.

I wonder, too, about how this relates to a another comment here about it being crucial to increase the physical time necessary to commit suicide. Our driveway was a good 160 feet long; I wonder if a major factor was that it'd take a good 15 seconds to run the length of it, and on some level I realized I'd chicken out before I got to the street. (I didn't get much farther than opening the door before thinking "What the hell am I doing?")

http://www.amazon.com/Imp-Mind-Exploring-Epidemic-Obsessive/...

Luckily none of my loved ones have been in such a position, but I think that one can have rational thoughts regarding such a situation, weigh the pros and cons, and decide that you are ready to go.

Thus, in the UK, pills are usually supplied in blister packs rather than bottles. This small measure helps reduce suicide. When paracetamol sales were restricted (32 tablets from a pharmacist; 16 over the counter (but actually it's 100 from a pharmacist if you can persuade them and unlimited if you have a doctors prescription)) completed suicide decreased for a while. (Numbers have since returned to near the same level.)

When people hear this they say "But if you're going to kill yourself you'll just do X". This ignores the very real fear that people have about hurting themselves. It's a big step to get over. And some people are considerate of others (in a weird way). They don't want to step in front of a train because they know the driver will be traumatised.

The Oxford Centre for Suicide Research has probably the best collection of information about attempted and completed suicide. (http://cebmh.warne.ox.ac.uk/csr/)

(As for the article: I thought it was really good. Obviously people are different and it will be closer for some than for others.)

This article is not accurate. When you are suicidal it is very hard to explain. You are miserable and in a lot of pain, you have negative racing thoughts about how terrible you are and what a horrible person you are etc and that the world would be better off without you, and you never really fit in, people just took advantage of you and abused and bullied you so you don't feel like you are connected to this world anymore, that the only way to end your suffering is to kill yourself. Logic, reason, and anything else no longer works for you, you can't think straight anymore and any thought just hurts you like a hot knife slicing into your brain. Every bad moment in your life plays out in your head, and each one just kills you inside a bit. You cannot even remember the good moments, you cannot recall that you have friends and family members who love you. You feel like nobody cares about you and everyone hates you and wants you to die.

I really don't know how I got out of it, except my attempts failed because I didn't do massive things like gunshot to the head or whatever, I did things that could be undone like overdose, etc. It was the only control I had at the time to survive, pick my way to die, and pick one that others can undo when they find me.

I got so sick working, that I developed schizoaffective disorder from the stress, and workplace bullies who abused me daily. I was a top-notch programmer, but now I am on disability trying to get my act together. Not being surrounded by sociopaths is helping me to heal up.

I don't want to reveal my K5 nick but I'm happy you're still around. :)

I am learning how to program all over again. I started with ANSI C and GCC and worked up to C++ with G++ in Unbuntu. Just small programs I'll move on to bigger stuff later.

Just hope I don't end up like MDC, I hear he's been 5150'ed again in California.

Take care.

I hope Mike Crawford gets out of jail, he did some 911 phone calls and bragged about it on K5 and then crashed Hacker Dojo and other startup events. Here is a musical mix of his 911 tape: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7RglDs2DkA It has the Crawford Cats in it as well.

Crawford sees himself as a hacktivist and has been suicidal in the past. Here are some of the things that got him in trouble:

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/04/startup...

http://startupweekend.org/2012/04/30/not-even-bmob-threats-c...

https://twitter.com/dhawalc/status/209088242094571520/photo/...

http://www.reddit.com/r/michaeldavidcrawford/comments/ur825/...

This comment may have no practical use to someone feeling suicidal, but those interested in a philosophical discussion of suicide should consider reading some of Camus' work.

[1]http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/camus

http://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Montaigne-Question-Attempts/d...

Existentialism is a hobby and a thing to talk about, not a tested therapy for major clinical depression.

A few years later, I got really depressed after a party and, on my way home, I stopped in a bridge, looking to the river and thinking. I knew I would never have the courage to jump, but I stood there. Then, from the other side of the bridge, came an old crazy friend, he was really drunk and hugged me real hard, leaving me with the stench of cachaça (brazilian rum). He kept going and I went home.

I never had any suicidal thought after that. On contrary, sometimes I feel that I now am "immune" to that kind of thing. Even if I feel depressed, it all goes away after a good night sleep. And I even became a person that is really good at talking to people with suicidal thoughts. I'm 24 now and, in the last five years, I've had a few friends come to me saying they were thinking about killing themselves and I somehow made them feel better.

I think that the most important thing when talking to people about this is: never say "don't to it". I usually say: "it's up to you, but.. have you considered this and that?" If you just tell them no to do it, they will ignore you, because they will think you don't understand their problems. And they are probably right about that.

This works all great in theory but absolutely fails in real life with real people.

It reality it's the deep and sharp inner pain that causes people to be driven to suicide. In suicide prevention - the cause of pain absolutely does not matter. What matters - is to teach people to transcend that inner pain. People only know how to suppress, express, or escape pain. Mostly via distractions, entertainment, chemicals and sex.

Suicide is an ultimate act of taking the strongest pain killer.

When other painkillers no longer works - and pain grows too sharp, and person does not know anything better - that seems to be the best way out.

The ultimate suicide guidance teaches people how, instead of running away from inner emotional and physical pain, turn toward it, observe, see it for what it really is and let it dissolve in irreversible manner.

When person transcends pain in this way - by facing it, observing it, feeling it - not only it causes the pain itself to dissolve - the situation or painful past that caused the pain to be in the first place - fails to re-ignite and fails to cause pain any longer.

That's it the ultimate healing direction.

That's the real way up from puny, harmless "positivive thinking" toward any thinking. When any thought, any memory, any recollection, no matter how "negative" fails to cause you to feel inner pain.

What he describes may not be accurate for all instances of depression, but he certainly hits the nail on the head for many.

[0] http://www.amazon.com/Darkness-Visible-Madness-William-Styro...

Sometimes it is the physical feeling of nausea and of cold water running through your veins.

Other times you shake with anxiety and your thoughts do not stay still. You wonder if you will be crazy permanently as it stunts your abilities, and begin to count 1..2..3..4..5..6..7..in order to keep your mind..8..9..10..connected to that one thought you were trying to have.

Or perhaps you feel everything has gone wrong and you recall how you tried to improve everything and what little effect you had; and you tell yourself off for your inadequacies and tell yourself that you must try harder next time. But you feel like it's hopeless: you did your best before and cannot see what you could do better. So you begin to cry and then start to laugh from the bitter-sweet realisation that you have given it everything. You ask yourself whether there's somebody to talk to about all of this, but the counsellors didn't work, your family have their own troubles, and your friends always cut you off at any sign you need their care. Why should you receive help anyway: nothing you are experiencing is out of the realms of normal human experience. You live a good life.

Sometimes you run across the road and, as you run, a car narrowly misses you. "I'm not ready to die yet!" you joke, yet your mind counters "Who am I kidding?" So next time you walk slower, imagining the vehicle slam into you. Or you imagine throwing yourself off the buildings you're walking past, or walking into the bar and starting a fight with the most threatening looking thug so you could either win over something you hate or die violently. Sometimes people wonder where your new-found courage has come from: why you're not worried about failing anymore. The horrible truth, it was the best take-away from the worst thought: you want to win or be ripped apart.

Other days you think of the positive mental attitude you have tried to grow, the self-help books you have read, the people you have given your love to, and the pressure that you are putting yourself under to try and come out of this and you just wonder how it has been months since I felt pleasure. A thought enters your mind: another 10 years for everybody's benefit but mine. Do I deserve this? Is being able to will myself to continue all there should be [0].

[0] http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/hell/camus.html

There was a build up leading up to that point, I had previously fantasized and romanticized about it.

For me being suicidal was like being down an inescapable black hole. Managing depression was similar. When hard times hit, it's all too easy to let your mind slip down this black hole and start feeling suicidal and depressed, I have to fight to not go to that place mentally. But when you're feeling low and you can feel yourself slipping into this black hole it's very tempting to allow yourself to fall right in.

For me also being suicidal was a deeply visceral experience, and also an experience of high perceived clarity. Mentally I felt very clear and focused.

It was also a time of uncontrollable and intense emotion. I felt deeply emotional about life and humanity in general, with small moments of shame. It was also a time of high desperation, and a place I could see no escape from. It was a very strong cocktail of negative emotions which are hard enough to deal with individually. Life as it appeared around me I perceived as meaningless and vacuous. The path of least resistance to get through each day was cynicism. Sometimes when I watch the TV or news I had uncontrollable surges of very intense empathy which would cause me to cry. It's very hard to articulate exactly how low and desperate I felt.

Fortunately for me my family were always there for me, and now I feel I am better. Even though at times I did not recognise they were there for me, they were and they were acting on it. Eventually I started to recognise it and very slowly I started to make things better.

I really don't think there was any other way for me to escape it all except with the help of my family. I dread to think what would of become of me if I didn't have that support network. I feel if I did not have that support network, I do not think I would have escaped alive. For suicidal people in worse position than I was I do not know how you would go about helping them.

From what I've seen we have supportive people who are curious, and people that have had darker days.

if you came here looking for something yourself, some glimpse of hope, just read the comments. Many people here suffered, and they found a way through it. You can too. Hang in there, you will get through it. Just keep fighting. Its worth it

How did the researchers know this? Did the patient somehow believe she was dead but that she was still able to speak with the living?

Abstract from scientists who published that study:

> Cotard's syndrome is a psychotic condition that includes delusion of a supernatural nature. Based on insights from recovered patients who were convinced of being immortal, we can (1) distinguish biographical experiences from cultural and evolutionary backgrounds; (2) show that cultural significance dominates biographical experiences; and (3) support Bering's view of a cognitive system dedicated to forming illusory representations of immortality.

http://philpapers.org/rec/COHPOS

I believe this was one of the main points of Dawkins' The Selfish Gene: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene

It's very well-documented that there are some genes that can be adaptive in some situations and fatal in others. For example, sickle-cell anemia is highly adaptive in sub-Saharan Africa where it confers immunity to malaria, yet results in debilitating blood clots when expressed in some individuals. Suicide is the mental version of this: not a genetic trait in itself, but a side-effect of a collection of genetic traits that are usually beneficial in isolation.

If you know you can't pass on your own genes, then the next best thing is to pass on the genes of your family or close relatives. Committing suicide may (or may not) make that more likely.

I don't think there is necessarily an evolutionary reason for suicide, but it certainly seems to fit within an evolutionary framework.

Do you really expect that a get-depressed-and-die instinct would reliably result in at least that much benefit to someone's close kin? If not, then you don't really expect such an instinct to evolve by kin selection.

Consider the case of cancer. Cells have builtin functions for commiting suicide when something goes awry, and also do not breed excessively normally. However since knocking those inhibitions out is advantageuos in the short term, cancer arises again and again. The mutations seems to confer an advantage, for the first generation, the second generation... quite a few generations actually. Then suddenly, as the cancer cells reach critical mass, and the parasite/parasitee ratio grows to large, it becomes a huge liability. The cancer cells die. Every single one. The end.

If we suppose that people only consider suicide in bad situations, where, say, their expected reproductive capability is maybe 1/8th that of their surviving relatives, then the evolutionary cost is 1/8th of what you assume. In this case, you would only need to save one cousin, or to have 1/4 of a chance of saving a sibling, or 1/2 a chance of saving a niece/nephew. Or maybe not "saving" a niece, but making it practical for your siblings to deliberately have another niece. ... The scenario remains questionable, and the 1/8 is of course made up, but it does seem possible.

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