People have chosen not to have children for at least as long as people have been writing down their thoughts. Most cultures throughout history have a monastic class of some sort, who renounce many aspects of conventional life to pursue other aims. There are myriad ways to live a significant, meaningful life without children. If you cannot think of a worthwhile use of your life that is not focussed on either your own material enrichment or raising your own progeny, that is merely a reflection of your own worthlessness.

Saying "I regret having children" is one of the most taboo sentences in our society. Until we address that taboo, we are unlikely to find an honest answer as to whether having children really is a source of fulfilment.

Spot on. I've had some family members and friends admit to me that they wish they hadn't had kids, and I know they mean it in the abstract. Too many people would hear a parent say that and have some emotional knee-jerk "you don't love me! you wish I was dead!" reaction, so it never gets said. You can still love a child but wish that you'd taken a different path in life.

That sounds as if you already have a made up answer: of course if we were honest, it wouldn't be a source of fulfillment? Well, you are wrong - at least for some people. Obviously nobody can generalize for other people.

I don't really care if other people have children or not, I only find it sad if they decide against them for the wrong reasons. I suspect the people who started this "kids are only a nuisance" meme are silently laughing to themselves about the fools who believed them while playing with their 5 kids.

Also, I'd say not having kids is missing some kind of experience you can not have otherwise, whereas having kids doesn't really make you miss out on things you could not have otherwise (unless you count stuff like "partying hard for ten years of my life instead of just 3 years"). In that sense I'd say it is sad. Of course it is not the only sad thing in the world.

The second author says mostly "you" and projects their own experience onto every childfree couple. That's pretty presumptuous and, as you noted, narcissistic.

Obviously all sorts of attitudes exist. There are even kids who regret having been born and who commit suicide.

#2 is a narcassist because having kids is all about him and his fulfillment/ego.

Send them back to the factory and try something else?

[Taken literally, it's of course a joke; but taken less literally, it's a bit scary... oO; ]

Ultimately we have to procreate to continue to species. And I for one can't claim to never have felt those social pressures or biological impulses.

To make any of our decisions dependent on it makes no sense.

I suppose I could have just elided the "gay" part, but then it would just be the same as referring to anyone who doesn't want kids as opposing evolution. I don't really understand the argument anyway I suppose. Are we supposed to just be machines of evolution? Pump out kids, toss the normal ones and try to weed out ones with traits to promote? Eugenics?

I'll say this for everyone else out there - deciding to not have kids based on bad kids in public is like deciding to not buy a house because of that one guy who never mows his lawn.

My kids have never had an outburst in public. Had one have gone into a temper tantrum or anything of the sort, I would have quietly left the establishment as a courtesy to others.

You don't notice the people who raise their kids well or have good kids because they go out of their way not to be a burden to others.

I'll call myself lucky that I have two great, artistic, and intelligent kids that are also mannered and polite, but it's less about luck and more about parenting.

If you want to have kids, and are scared by that horror scene in the restaurant, rest assured that you can have kids that aren't like that. It's not luck, it's parenting.

Seriously, in the big picture it's no big deal. Downs syndrome, in contrast, is a big deal.

Having kids is a major decision. Not having them is not.

If it wasn't, I'm sure people would have a lot fewer kids.

But as the father of a toddler (and probably another in the relatively near future), I can say that it isn't all reward, at least in the short term. It's exhausting. I have a massive list of ideas and half-started projects that I feel too burned out to work on productively by the time the kid's in bed, and weekends (which used to by my personal project time) are pretty much gone.

If any parent/hackers out there have any tips on how to stay motivated and productive with kids, I'd love to hear it. Or is it just a matter of waiting until they're a bit older?

This isn't just about "personal and financial success", by the way... I am happy to put my kid ahead of personal career and finance (although I actually find that to be fairly compatible, as long as I can get in a standard work week, which my wife graciously allows me). What suffers is my own personal motivations and fulfillment, my own hobbies, education and art.

I was a no kid adult until 37. I had great success, owning bars and restaurants and living a very busy life. I was happy to believe that a childless life was my destiny. My wife was told it was a medical impossibility for her to have children, further reinforcing this mindset.

I had it all, and had no time for children. Having owned fine dining restaurants, I had a dim view of them in social settings, and having a very active social life they were a dirty, smelly, noisy intrusion.

We found out we were pregnant, and it scared us, mostly that we'd be losing out on the life we built for ourselves.

Two and a half years in, I've never been happier, and more motivated. I've been more productive as a father than I ever was with all the other distractions. I've launched 3 companies, consulting on two more, and lost 30 lbs.

A great parent, like a great leader, is made, not born. Inside all of us is a great, loving parent, but there are some who will not bear the risk to their lifestyle, just like we wouldn't.

Staying motivated, honestly, is about realizing that you are ultimately responsible for managing your time. Don't blame your kids. They're hard work, but so is running a company, or leading a revolution. I would argue that they're worth it, even as I'm working from home as I toilet train her.

I wont judge anyone who chooses to avoid being a parent, just as I wouldn't judge anyone who never chooses to start a company, chase a dream, or take a big risk. But I will say this.

The reward far outweighs the risk.

All great things are difficult, all worthwhile achievements demand sacrifice, and while some may be intimidated by a heavy workload, for me it's a clarion call to be the best father I can be.

It has made me the best founder I could be.

I don't expect that I'm the norm, but I chose to put party nights, poker nights, industry events, and other distractions aside for work, and get to spend enough time with her.

When daycare is closed, however, I'm right screwed.

For me, hands down, the most important thing I have done is try my hardest to maintain a solid, loving relationship with my wife. Without inspiring each other to be better parents, without the support we provide to each other, we could never flourish as parents/professionals/etc.

Things definitely get better as they get older. When they are able to entertain themselves, are no longer attached to your hip 24/7, it is much easier to start finding time for hobbies, side-projects, etc.. Of course a balance needs to be found here - you don't want to miss out on quality-time with your kids.

Going to bed/getting up early can add a few extremely productive hours to your day. I find that pretty much nothing productive happens for me after 9:00 PM. Of course, that's just me and plenty of people find late night hours very productive.

Try your best to stay healthy. Diet and exercise are often put on the back burner when times get busy. It can be tempting to skip sleep in favor of getting a few extra hours in. When it comes down to it though, if you're a mess you will not be effective.

I've found it useful to have friends with similar interests that have children. I'm not sure if this is widely applicable or not. I started raising my daughter when I was 22 and it was a very sudden change from care-free recent college grad to parent with a ton of responsibility, so I lost many of my friends as I struggled to find balance among my overwhelming responsibilities. My current friends that are parents, who share similar interests and manage to succeed in many different aspects of life, keep me motivated .

EDIT: I just read over my post after a minute and it seems really pessimistic. I should qualify it by saying that I would not change anything even if I could. When my daughter gets scared at night and calls for me, I come and save her. It's those times when it is all worth it.

I found I had to just pick one major task to do in my spare time so I chose focusing on personal projects. I usually woke up earlier than everyone else and went to bed later than everyone else to make it work. I would commit to at least 1 full hour to working on a project per night (which wouldn't always work out). The key for getting a project done was laying out the tasks and always moving forward so that every hour was spent getting closer to completion.

It was a long road but I now enjoy working for myself as an independent consultant, I have a side project I work with a friend on, and I have my own product I'm working on as well.

I would say that it's a little easier when the children get older but not too much as they start becoming more active in activities like girl/boy scouts, sports, etc.

do one thing after the other, start with the most important.

and: stop doing stuff that isn't important to you. i stopped watching tv years ago, also no alcohol.

if a side project is important to you, then the trick is just to not do the stuff that isnt as important. if you follow that logic you will always find time to do the stuff that you want to do. oh, and sooner or later you will have to quit your day job. as a day job is the biggest time and energy black hole ever.

It doesn't seem impossible to perhaps achieve better mental hygiene (more sleep, less time wasted on useless stuff). And if I don't, the time I'll have with my son already feels so short anyway. He is going to kindergarten, so now there are only late afternoons and weekends. At the age of 5 or 6 he'll start going to school, which will probably mean even less time with him. That is only 3 years in the future from now.

And to be honest, I wasn't the best at finishing my own projects before my son was around. I still think that my energy levels will probably stabilize a bit and I'll get more things done.

Also having clear arrangements with the wife might help: we have certain days where one of us takes care of the child.

Eventually, perhaps some projects could be done together with the child? I am very interested in creating games for kids now. And ultimately I would like to build him a cool robot...

I also find waking early and going to bed later helps - you can get more done while everyone else is asleep. Exercising early in the morning helps me sleep more soundly at night too so I really only need 5 or 6 hours.

While children are often held as the opposite choice to personal and financial success, as a parent with four young children let me say that in certain spheres exactly the opposite is often true -- there is something fundamentally motivating when you have children if you have the tools to optimize the situation. For years I idled in various positions, but the moment kids entered the scene all pistons started firing.

I say this because I've witnessed a pattern that I find very tragic: A couple in their relative youth (30s) decide that they don't want kids. Later, however, they start having second thoughts. And by the time they decide that they do want kids, they are desperate.

IVF rates, to my knowledge, are still pretty low (once you rule out the four-fertilizations-at-once average-movers), and carrying to term is also hard. So there is depression and tragedy every time the bad news is revealed- the pregnancy didn't take, or the woman miscarried.

I know several people who regret not having kids, but I don't know any who regret having kids (or, to be fair, admit to regretting it).

I'm not trying to preach here, I'm just saying that I would recommend only making the decision not to have kids after giving it a deep, emotional consideration. The rational reasons (I wouldn't be good at it, etc.), may not hold up as you age.

Assuming our upcoming donor cycle fails, adoption will be our final alternative. We are in our mid-40s now.

That said, I think it is good communitarian practice to be involved in at least one adoption, as a parent or sibling. There are so many abandoned or abused kids who deserve better than what they have.

Having kids in your mid-20s is often not going to be a great choice, insofar as a lot of people are pretty much kids themselves in their mid-20s.

We're pretty certain of the causes of our infertility and they are related to a specific degenerative condition. It's true we got married too late to start with, which itself was the product of overly casual attitudes; but this is not the purpose of my comment.

The purpose of my post is as a PSA for readers who see this thread and might need to be informed that being undecided in your early 30's is very quickly too late (unless you are male and plan to marry someone much younger). Fertility declines with age, very rapidly, particularly for females. The assisted fertility system is by no means a guaranteed workaround for this, and is in fact an extremely expensive and frustrating system to deal with no matter the outcome.

I can see why people choose not to have kids. They're expensive, they're noisy, and they really limit your ability to be spontaneous.

That being said, it seems to have become fairly popular to rag on having kids, and I think at least some of the angst is derived from buying into certain cultural expectations about having kids despite rejecting the general cultural expectation to have kids.

American culture makes parenting out to be a lot harder than it is. If you're a mom who doesn't stay at home with her kids, bake cookies for the PTA, send them to a dozen after school activities, etc, you're a bad parent and your kids will grow up to be unsuccessful degenerates.

I think that's overstated. Right now, I'm in New York working while my wife is with my parents in DC taking care of our newborn while she finishes final exams for law school. Out of 5 weeks of the baby's life, I've missed half. And you know what? She'll never remember it. American culture creates this huge conflict between careers and raising young children that doesn't need to be so big. We say "these are the best years, you shouldn't miss them" but that's for us, not the kids. I miss my daughter terribly. She has no idea that I (or anything else) continue to exist when she can't see me. My dad travelled internationally 50% of the time while my brother and I were small children. How was it affected us? Not at all--I don't even remember anything before 5 or 6 or so.

The same thing is true for activities when the child is older. Suburban parents spend enormous amounts of time just driving around, from ballet class to soccer practice, etc. But nobody on their death bed has ever lamented they didn't do ballet as a child instead of just running around in the back yard with friends. Suburbia itself creates huge artificial roadblocks. Commutes that suck away time, big houses that get filled with toys, etc. All that is unnecessary. Entire generations of kids grew up in the city where they could be ditched with the neighbor on short notice if necessary. Those cities still exist. It's still possible to walk from work to your apartment, picking up the kid and some dinner on the way.

All this is not to say that having kids doesn't create real challenges. Infancy is going to be a rough deal for you if you're not good at sleeping in 3 hour blocks. When you go to work, you have to find somewhere to put them for 8-10 hours a day, preferably somewhere they won't get killed. But there is a middle ground between not having kids and having kids then abandoning your career, hobbies, etc, and moving to the sururbs and joining the PTA.

On the one hand, it's fine, because these are new sets of parents using a pressure release valve, but on the other hand, it's screamingly boring because I've had to deal with the exact same conversation with new parents throughout my life. Try and change the topic and it comes back to baby vomit on the car seats or how the cat doesn't deal well with fistfuls of fur pulled out of her. It's not socially acceptable to indicate that it's boring to be in this conversation yet again - because to these parents, these kids are special. Which is fine, for them, but for me, the only thing that ever changes are the names.

I guess this is a long-winded way of saying that the ragging on having kids is also an escape valve; that it's a way of highlighting that not having kids is also a valid life choice rather than just bearing it silently. We'll never get to a point where it's perfectly acceptable to say 'No, I don't want kids' without speaking up from time to time.

Actually, that's not why we do it. It's because in that time of our life it's all we really know that we can talk about to the general population.

If you have specific common interests, then there's that too. But we don't know the stats on the sports teams any more, at least not reliably. We used to be deep into the details of politics or current events, but now we're a little fuzzy on the fifth-paragraph stuff. And some subjects we just let go entirely.

We know what we work at and taking care of the kids.

There are exceptions, of course. There is that guy that still seems to be able to do everything he did before having kids. But you can spot his wife at that same party, and you don't need to be introduced in order to do so. She's surrounded by girlfriends at the party, she looks a bit unhappy around the eyes, and she holds your gaze for a moment too long.

You said yourself that you miss your baby terribly. So how is that a winning situation for you?

Now, of course not everyone has parents who can help and sometimes life makes it very hard to live near one's parents, but we have this very entrenched cultural phenomenon where older folks live by themselves and are lonely while younger folks live by themselves and complain about the hassle and expense of child care.

The show "Everybody Loves Raymond" is really illustrative. When I was a small child in Bangladesh, my mom lived in the same city with her sisters, brothers, and mother. The idea that living near your in laws could be the premise of a running joke would've gone over their heads.

Re: saying that parenting is easy--I never said it was easy, and I'm not speaking from my vast experiene as a parent for all of one month. I'm speaking from my experience as a child who grew up with non-American parents who didn't have the same cultural expectations about parenting.

The decision to have a child isn't about vanity, or narcissism. You have to put up with being kicked, vomited on, abused and hated when you become a father / mother. That comes with the territory. You have to put someone above yourself, and it really is a humbling experience.

The trick to to make sure you and your partner are on the same page about this, and I mean long before getting hitched or moving in together. Like third-date long before.

As with all relationships whether they be personal or professional the most important part of the relationship is to maintain open lines of communication with the other party.

My wife and I were married when I was 25 and she was 23. I just turned 30, and while back then I was all about having children, I'd like to put it off as I still have a lot of places to visit, things to do, etc.

She, on the other hand, is ready to have children. Now. Since she's 28, she has a plan to have X kids, spaced X years apart.

The next 6-12 months of our relationship will be interesting.

I was 38 when we had our son and I already regret being so old. There is the worry of staying fit and healthy as long as possible to be there for him. Also, his grandparents enjoy him very much. Should my son wait as long as I did to have children, I would already be 76 - so probably much less joy with grandchildren. And lots more issues like that.

If you have a kid, being fit and healthy suddenly becomes so much more important. Sure, I wanted to live before I had a kid, too. But the reality is that dieing would bother me much more now than before having a kid (yes I know it wouldn't bother me anymore once I'm dead...).

Also, pregnancy becomes more difficult and risky for older women. And if you have a kid and decide you actually like it, might be nice to have some spare years to create more. Just saying...

This is just a short chunk of things copied from my bucket list. Kids don't mix well with the above activities.

Don't know about Amsterdam: they do have kids in Amsterdam, but perhaps you mean "a year living high on drugs surrounded by prostitutes"? No offense - just wondering why it would be incompatible with kids.

Antarctica: again, why not. Depends on what you want to do there. Also you can do some things when your kids are older.

Even taking a few months off doesn't seem impossible, with a supporting spouse. I think there are lots of parents who go away to remote locations for work (truck drivers and oil rig workers for example).

They'll pick up a foreign language (even though Dutch is not the most important one) and see a different culture.

After thinking long and hard about it, I agree with your premise. Kids should be compatible with the activities I still want to do in my lifetime. Thanks for the advice.

Not discussing these things early on are a recipe for disaster.

What's it like? It's just life. You keep living, with or without kids.

What does bother me some is the moral high ground some people take when they know you don't have kids. "You couldn't possibly understand what it's like." "Once you have kids, you'll know." To some extent, that might be true, but I don't think it's impossible to make judgements about certain situations without being in that situation entirely.

Some people tend to make a lot more judgements about me and my decision not to have kids than I do about their choice to have kids. "But... no kids? That's so selfish of you!" Then 10 minutes later... "aren't you worried about who will take care of you when you're older?". WTH?

You might think I'm generalizing, but I know I'm not the only one to think that nothing can prepare you for having kids. It's probably because it's as much a technical situation as it is an emotional situation. And the long-lasting nature of raising kids will impact you in ways you could never have possibly imagined.

I hired an attorney many years ago and when I found out he had no kids that was a plus. It meant that he would be able to think about law without distraction and I wouldn't be hearing excuses about how he left the office early to watch the soccer game. (I have kids by the way but have managed to still keep work a priority. I haven't found this to be universal though.)

I was right about the attorney. Many Friday's he was at the office late and was generally available any day any time he didn't have many distractions.

Of course I'm not commenting on what is good for him but for me I saw it as a positive.

I might dispute your view of that attorney - he may well have many other distractions that prevent him from getting stuff done, but certainly the 'time with the kids' factor isn't there.

Of course, when interviewing people for jobs, we're never supposed to ask about personal/family issues, but I do eventually bring it up (though I haven't been in a job interview in several years). My wife and I are both self-employed, have no kids, and are able to devote stretches of time to work when necessary. I point that out - "if you need someone to travel and stay overnight, I've got no issues with that" sort of thing. Not sure it helped all that much for 'jobs', but it has helped in freelance/consulting. "Yes, I can be there tomorrow, and my fee is $x".

I call kids a "terrible blessing". There's so much downside, yet on the whole its not something you regret, once you make the transition. All generalizations are false, yet biologically we are made to sexually reproduce. Therefore reproduction and the creation of replacements is a natural part of life for most of us.

I don't think you can make value judgments about whether one situation is better or worse than another. It doesn't work that way. Having said that, I am reminded of something my adoptive mother told me before she died. Having spent a couple of decades in a very active community of older people, she found the ones without children the saddest. "They don't have anybody," she'd say sadly. Yes, they might have had a great life where they accomplished much and did all they wanted to do, they might even have a Rolodex full of friends, but at the end, there was nobody left for them. There were no replacements or people to carry on their memory long after they were gone. There was a deep loneliness and an empty spot as they socialized with others and enjoyed their last days. This was something others could notice. This was something most of them admitted to feeling.

Take that for what it's worth --- probably not a lot. For me, this is one of those things that looks dramatically different at age 47 than it did at age 17.

http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/090614.html

1. It is part of the lifecycle, it is part of being an adult. The link at the top is mislabeled, you can't be an "adult" and not have kids. Yes it's grueling and miserable, but discomfort grounds you and gives you perspective. People that never leave their comfort zone never grow... they don't "grow up".

2. I personally believe it is the key to immortality. I'm not talking reincarnation or ancestor worship. Just a mental image I have every being that lived and died since the beginning of time to create me (or you), like threads in a fabric, and then you don't procreate and it's like "snip" and that thread ends.

I don't know what drive you to that conclusion, or what makes you equate not having children with never leaving your comfort zone.

I know parents who are not "adults" in the grounded/perspective sense, and childless couples with more perspective than I can conceive.

That's pretty much my stock answer when, after complaining about how much my kids eat out of me, I get the "you-chose-to-have-them" look. Having kids forces you out of you comfort zone, forces you to constantly adapt, evolve, go with the flow of life. As painful as it may seem sometimes, I believe it's all worth it.

You also hit the nail on the head with your second point. Without going to the extreme of living vicariously through another being which can never be healthy for either party, looking at your child grow up and go through the fascinating steps of learning life (steps I've long forgotten), I can't help but feel a little bit of myself feel that amazement myself.

I, at 33, still wake up at least 3 times a week thinking "thank god I don't have children", and pretty much have felt that way for as long as I can remember. I really like my freedom. I mean, I'm reluctant to buy houseplants because they would tie me to one place to maintain them. Kids would be ok if they could be shipped off to boarding school most of the time, or were adults, but I viscerally hate being around young (under 10-12yo, but especially under 3yo) children.

I am probably less likely to get married (not wanting kids) than I would be otherwise, but I'm fine with living in sin indefinitely. (I see no real benefit to marriage other than the legal benefits, and for me, those seem mostly negative).

So no thanks, no kids for me.

"And then it dawns on you, your purpose in life: It's love. A life without love is a life without purpose and completely meaningless. And I'm not talking about the kind of love you feel for your soul mate. That love is not invincible. I'm talking about unconditional love. The kind of love only children have to give and would die inside without it."

What a prick. If your life is meaningless without kids go move to the midwest and shack up with some girl out of highschool desperate to get kids. My life certainly isn't meaningless. I get a lot of enjoyment and meaning out of my life, but perhaps I'm different than most since I actually consider intellectual challenges meaningful.

This is more accurate than I care to admit.

That's what makes him seem like a prick. Maybe if it was a personal revelation but he is saying it will happen to us all but we're not wise enough (or our mortality isn't visible enough yet) to realize it.

It's about as snippy as if someone religious told me I'd burn in hell unless I came to god... the only difference is that I know for sure that religion is bullshit, but having kids is a fact and really you can never be entirely sure if its the right thing or not. So this is actually a subject worth being passionate about.

At 31 I was still going to dance clubs. Even then it was weird because most people there were in their twenties. Now it would feel even weirder, although I think I might go again now and then...

Just saying that the things that seem like fun when you are 31 might not always be fun when you are older. One example might be dating. Of course not necessarily.

I like kids. I like my brother's kids. I like my friends' kids. Just don't want my own.

The hard part for a lot of parents is the number of things you 'should do to be a better parent', stretches out into the infinite. No matter what good they do, all they see is an endless list of ways in which they've failed. Keep yourself out of that mental trap and parenting is a piece of cake.

If you're anything like me, any intellectually-gratifying side project I get started on will slowly consume me if I'm not careful. By that, I mean that it's what I'll think about when I get up, before I go to sleep and, yes, during all my free time. I can't do the one hour a day thing.

It's simply impossible to balance that state of mind with young children, at least the first few years, because it's not so much that they'd resent you if you chose to spend your free time on that side project instead of them (although if they're old enough, they will), it's that they physically need you for reassurance, feeding, diaper-changing, etc... That's a lesson I learned the hard way, especially after my second child.

A real danger for people like me is that you could end up resenting your own kid for depriving you of that intellectual gratification you crave. No matter how much fun little kids are (say < 4), they cannot satisfy that craving.

Also, the world isn't all about you.

What is the world all about anyway?

Since I have a child, I actually want my friends to have children too, so that my child can have friends, too. Rather selfishly (you might even say racist), I want my culture to survive.

The probability seems quite high that my child will be confronted with a difficult future. That held me off from having children for a long time, but ultimately, they deserve their chance. I don't need 10 children, but one or two should be OK.

Yes, it's selfish. So is living at all. If you are so concerned, why not commit suicide and donate the resources you would have consumed in the rest of your life to other people and their children?

Update: Answered my own question. Looks like Quora does ask permission. At least that's what the announcement of the partnership said: http://www.quora.com/blog/Quora-Partners-with-Slate

And every time someone says, "how do you look so young for your age" or "how can you possibly afford to live the way you live and go the places you go and have the experiences you have" - I just smile and say, "no kids."

Children make me smile when I see them but I have no desire to reproduce. Natural selection has selected for parents that experience great joy in having children. Those that didn't have this response probably ate their young. <g>

If you want kids, have them. That's great, I'll be genuinely happy for you, and I'll come to their birthdays, graduations, and weddings.

We don't want kids of our own, and are very satisfied and fulfilled with our lives. So please, try to understand that, and be happy for us in return.

Kids or no kids are definitely a YMMV issue. I have a 18mo old daughter who I love dearly and is "the light of my life" yawn. But I'm also aware enough to know the tradeoffs of children and belive that it is just as equally possible to be wonderfully happy without them as it is to be miserable with them.

Please. Children != happiness.

In fact I believe this has been studied at length, but I can't recall the source now. That said, sharing your life with a child or two can be highly rewarding.

One very common trait among people I know who don't have kids is that they have dogs. For them, dogs help to fill the need they have for unconditional love and the seemingly built-in paternal/maternal need to care for someone. That's great. Nothing wrong with that.

I've had lots of dogs in my life. In my experience, the dogs were fun. We played and wrestled and went on walks and went to the park. I was sad when they passed away.

I also have three children. I can honestly say that I never experienced anything close to the feelings I have for my children with the dogs. My children look like me, and like the woman I love. They think deep thoughts and ask questions and figure things out.

Instead of teaching them to sit or rollover (though you have to start somewhere!) I teach them to reason and understand. I try to teach them as best I can to be a good person. That's a process that has inspired deep introspection and personal growth, as well as some of the best work I've done in my career and my community.

Owning a dog is certainly easier than having a child, by which I mean it's a lot less work. So if easy is your metric for better you could probably say something like "Better dogs than children." But using every other metric that I can think of I would say the opposite.

- Diapers, Soccer Games, Braces, Tantrums. -

Those are pretty poor reasons to me.

A good reason to me is "I am fulfilled doing what I do and have no reason to want children" or even "I have never wanted to have kids"

But the way she writes, it sounds like she actually really wanted children, but was afraid that they would tie her down too much, ruin her life, and make her do icky things like change diapers, and make her feel uncomfortable when they threw tantrums. Her response to getting her tubes tied was "Freedom." as though there was this specter of child-rearing that she was so afraid of. Her followup states that she is afraid she would have been a bad mother anyways so it was probably for the best.

As someone else said, the decision should be to have kids, not deciding to not have kids. But the first author sounds more like she wanted kids but was afraid, regrets the decision and is spending her time trying to justify, to herself, that decision to get her tubes tied back at 30 now that she is getting to the point of no return.

Second author would have sounded a lot better if he had written it in the first person instead of second person. He's describing his experience, not mine. It's pretty presumptuous to tell me how I feel, or will feel.

Some people are really into kids and have made that choice and couldn't do without kids. They enjoy kids like some of us enjoy computers. They want as many kids as they can and don't think of any of it as a burden or "work". It's just pure joy to them. Just like some of us like to program and "play" with computers and find it fun. Then there are as you know people who don't derive any enjoyment from kids and would rather just work and do what they want. Just like there are people who find no enjoyment in doing the things that some of us do for fun. Nothing wrong with that. Don't be pressured into having kids just because it's what society seems to tell you is the best thing to do. It definitely doesn't float the boat of everyone just as everyone is not all into computers, cars, skiing, knitting or pets. Everyone is different.

I believe some people are born with DNA that enables them to be great athletes, scholars, parents, etc. I always tell my friends and family that it's not in my DNA to have kids.

I honestly don't know the exact science behind DNA to know if my statement holds true or not, but figuratively speaking it delivers the point that I believe I lack the traits to be a good parent, including the motivation to become one.

Damn... all that time walking the dogs... coulda had a kid!

The thing about people hating shrieking children, that seems to be a very strong sentiment among those who feel the same. I really wonder what it is, because I really am able to tune it out, or at least not let it bother me much. Is it about taking it personally, or is that a condescending (and incorrect) theory?

As for the other two, perhaps I should specify: I believe that this is true specifically for people who openly proclaim childlessness as their free choice, who defend it as a superior option, and who counter-attack and try to de-normalise having kids. People in other words who flaunt childlessness and try to pretend that having kids is not really an important issue. All of the people I have met who act in this manner have been strange, warped people. One lady told me she couldn't stand the idea of an "alien parasite growing inside of her." Others I have met scream about the horrors of childbirth, or the disgusting, pathetic and needy nature of babies. None of them seemed to have enough love in their hearts to care selflessly and unquestioningly for another human being, and all seemed to be gripped by pretty nasty self-loathing fears of their own humanity/mortality.

On the other hand, I am sure there are many people who for whatever reason miss on out on having kids or choose not to for decent reasons, but maintain good perspective about their decision/fate, and feel a measure of quiet regret and curiosity about the road not taken, which helps keeps them soft and human.

One thing the world doesn't need more of is Westerners living Western lifestyles. In addition to the freedom to focus on your life (if, like me, you are too selfish to give your life away for the sake of a child then you're better off not having a child), your conscience is soothed by the fact that you're sparing the world additional Westerners.

I don't get the idea that you need to hate kids to decide that having your own is something you don't wish to do.

Exactly. I have a 2 year old, two months after he was born I founded a security company (so you could say I'm a hacker). I have visited more places in this 2 years than in the 32 years before that. It's crazy sometimes, all the work, no sleep, wife hates me when I come too late from work, etc. But I love my son, I wish I could have 100 like him. Matter of fact I can, but wife doesn't approve :) Protip: If you want kids DONT wait until you have a nice job, house, car, etc. by that time you are in your 40's and it's way more difficult.

Did she truly regret it or not? Or has she not yet decided?

Ha, lets see: a Dog can raise a litter of 6 puppies every year with no effort, but to correctly raise 2 or 3 humans you need the time and income of at least two adults, for a lifetime. Which looks more difficult to you?

If you argue like that, kids can be raised much cheaper, too. And there are even examples of kids being raised by wolves, I think? Hm, problem solved: get a dog and a kid, let the dog raise the kid?

Now compare that with raising a kid. If HE don't like the food and gets too thin, YOU may end in prison for kid neglecting. So you better cook nice food to your kids. Still think it's easier than a dog?

Also we were talking about maintaining a dog, not getting rid of it.

Basically, as we move from 100,000 years ago to 1000 years from now we'll have gone from needing to have children to survive to essentially living forever. All the way back there was zero individuality, and we have more now, and we'll have more in the future.

Individuality is the opposite of parenting. That's why women are still behind. To a larger extent than men they live their lives for their children. And when you pour your entire life force into another human, you simply cannot achieve the same as someone who does that to create art or music or literature.

Men started being individuals before women did, and they are ahead as a result. Women are catching up, though, and that's a good thing. The important thing is that in the distant future we won't have the requirement.

When we are creative life forces with arbitrary bodies that live (effectively) forever, what will be the need for reproduction? At that point we'll be enlightened entities providing services for each other.

In short, reproduction is a vestigial requirement that we sill possess. And because it's evolutionary it provides us pleasure, but it will give out to advanced happiness in the future, and that happiness is the happiness of creating art, music, literature, etc.

There will still be children for a long time, and they should be celebrated and loved enjoyed when they do happen. But we've long since past the time where everyone needs to make them. In fact, it's nearly becoming criminal to keep making them when so many exist that have no loving parents.

As for the article's direct point of whether one can be happy without them, I think the answer lies in how much happiness one can gain from being an individual. If you are an author or a painter or a musician, and you truly love what you do because it helps other people then you likely are tapping into the same sensation that parents get--and likely something more as well. For people like that, having children is not a requirement.

And since this should be the goal anyway, i.e. people CREATING things for others to enjoy (as opposed to http://danielmiessler.com/blog/parent-to-child-propagation-o...) then those who can do so should pursue this course without fear.

As for those who simply feel elation from raising children, there should be no shame in that either. Opposing nature in the name of a distant, future type of happiness that may not be possible for that person is not likely to be fulfilling.

It's not time to abandon parenthood. But it is time to adopt adoption, and to look forward to a time when creation of art and beauty should become the goal of everyone living rather than a default action of creating new humans who will participate in a mostly meaningless means of making money so that their offspring can do the same.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble. I think a lot about this.