> Our ancestors of the distant past can be invoked in conversations about nearly anything: They supposedly worked less, relaxed more, slept better, had better sex, and enjoyed better diets, among other things.
That’s just an artifact of modern life. Pool enough money between family and friends and you can buy yourself a cheap plot of land in the middle of nowhere and wild out on your own agrarian commune
No, that won't work. The dynamics have changed completely: although your agrarian commune has a ton of advantages compared to a farm 200 years ago, neither you or them could get by without their outer societies. The farm 200 years ago would have been unlikely to make its own critical tools, for instance, and certainly not, say, extracted the iron for those tools. And the economy between the farm/agrarian commune and wider society has changed dramatically. The agrarian commune has far less to offer its surrounding society. It will have to get by on charity and endowments (both ultimately based on outer society work).
> The farm 200 years ago would have been unlikely to make its own critical tools...
Yes they would have! There's a huge slew of great YouTube shows basically recreating how people did things in the past and it's rather stupidly amazing. For instance you probably think iron mining is some complex process where you need to go dig into a mountain in some specific place or whatever, which naturally leads to your worldview.
In reality? Let me introduce you to bog iron. [1] It's stupidly common, and naturally recycles. Depending on where you live, and how often you step outside, you've probably even seen it! That orange gunk in boggy type waters? Maybe a shining shimmer on the surface? That's not pollution as many think, at least not usually - it's iron hydroxide - good by itself and often a clue of bigger deposits just below it.
Gather it all up, smelt it down, and you now have iron. And now here [2] is a video of a guy making a homemade bellows capable of iron working. A bit of skill and you can build basically whatever you want. You can even make steel. The big gap from the stone age to the iron age and beyond was mostly one of knowledge rather than requiring any sort of large scale industrialization or associated technologies.
I also strongly disagree on the agrarian:urban divide. If urban outputs disappeared, society would change a lot but still continue along just fine for the most part. If agrarian outputs disappeared, everybody would die. The fact that socially worthless, if not harmful, work is economically rewarded more than socially critical work is mostly because we swapped to economic systems that no longer value anything except money, and the closer somebody is to the flow of money, the easier it is to take a bit more for themselves - and farmers are about as far away from the flow of money as you can get.
I know about bog iron, of course. It's an example of a technology which just couldn't compete at all. It was insignificant 200 years ago, at least where I live. It's too much work for too little iron in too low quality.
Even 2000 years ago: I read an article about trying to find archaeological traces accompanying the spread of Sami languages into Scandinavia. They've only found one, tenative one: it seems there was a stop in making bog iron around the same time. And that's not because they didn't need iron, or forgot how to make it: it's just because they had good enough trade networks that they didn't need to.
Those YouTube shows you mention: many of them are outright fakes, you know.
I didn't really say anything about the agrarian urban divide. I just pointed out the problems of going out trying to live in your own in an agrarian commune. If enough people did it, of course it could be viable in theory, if everyone were really committed to it and bloody determined to not dip into the modern economic context.
Bog iron most certainly isn't low quality. There's some variability, but it's generally rather pure with relatively low rates of undesirable impurities, trivial to reduce, and it's a renewable resource. The main issue is in immediate quantity. Bog iron is 'decentralized' and not appropriate for setting up a massive scale centralized iron production facility, but is more than appropriate for village to town level production, maintenance, and even weaponry needs.
And none of this stuff is faked, there is nothing to fake. The Townsends (and other similar groups) are just historical reenactors who happen to have some amazing skillsets. Watching the Brandon guy from that channel work with a wood lathe, blacksmithing, or pretty much anything you can do with your hands is part of the reason I won't be teaching my children to code, but will be nudging them towards wood and metal working. What you can do in the real world is just so much more inspiring than anything in the digital world.
These sort of little sub-cultures generally make revenue from these videos and by selling merch, either produced by their group, or by providing relevant stuff that's otherwise difficult to find, like historically accurate 18th century costumes, gear, etc for the Townsends group.
I haven't seen the Townsend group you speak of so I can't judge. I was thinking more of a channel, I think it was called "primitive technology", out of Cambodia, I think? Anyway, very obviously faked stuff.
You're talking past me here. I think old-fashioned crafts are very cool, and certainly people were more self-sufficient 200 years ago. I've been doing genealogy, and verified a family story that we're descended from a famous local woodcarver, who made the most gorgeous church altar pieces during the 1750s, most of which are still in use. He allegedly carved them with a common pocket knife (tollekniv), or, according to other stories, with self made tools fashioned from scythe blades. Fantastically cool. But no one alleged that he used his own bog iron!
In fact, when I dug into the story, the more connected to his society I understood that he was. Art historians have commented that he was clearly in touch with artistic trends from more central European countries. It turned out, he wasn't just a woodcarver, he was also the local schoolmaster, so he was perfectly literate and may well have corresponded with artists in other countries. He had also made musical instruments.
If he'd lived alone, he wouldn't have been able to do much of what he did. We underestimate how connected everyone was 300 years ago - or even 3000 years ago. Bog iron is one thing but try making bronze on your own!
I think you're creating a false dichotomy here - either some massive interconnected, and relatively singular, society - or people living literally alone. If you're at all into video games, the game Kingdom Come Deliverance, is unique in that it's not only based on real 15th century European (Bohemia - present day Czech Republic) locations but engaged in extensive research to create as accurate a physical representation of these places as possible.
So it can give you a tremendous feel for how "society" in the past might have felt in terms of scale and layout. And a decent sized city, would typically be smaller than a large suburban neighborhood now a days, in spite of there being hundreds of millions of humans alive at the time. And so I wouldn't view stuff as like 'society vs outsider', but rather large numbers of mostly self sufficient societies.
----
The channel discussion is really interesting! The original Primitive Technology channel [1] is 100% authentic and an amazing channel. But its growing popularity spawned a bunch of imitators including the Cambodian one (or 10) you're referencing. The imitators began doing ever more elaborate stuff for clicks, except it pretty much begin being obviously faked at some point - like multi-story spring fed swimming pools with crystal clear water, all constructed with extensive cuts and editing that was the video version of this meme. [2]
For the original you can watch him do stuff in real time, with no cuts or editing. And it's very doable yourself. Townsends uses edits and cuts, but again there's nothing like 'zomg how could they possibly do that' - it's just historical recreations, like building a log cabin, blacksmithing, and so on. All the stuff that would have been carried out in beginning one of these many little autonomous 'mini societies.'
This keeps coming up in the context of India as well. The Urban centers are so people dense you yearn to escape this life and live somewhere you can enjoy Mountain perspectives, lakes and tall trees. But here is the catch, I go motorcycling often. While you do feel nice riding out in the Sun, see stunning things. You begin to realise why it might not work.
There are no schools, hospitals, shopping centers or everything that makes modern life possible. Plus there is the additional fatigue of getting bored of the same things. Honestly how long are you going to enjoy the Mountain view?
I do have relatives who live in far villages and have not travelled and seen the world(In fact not travelled more than 100 km radius from place of birth), they also know very little of the world, except for latest insta reels and whatsapp forwards. To be frank they do seem more happy. They might not be rich, but there is a slow and peaceful cadence to their lives which honestly feels attractive.
I’ve lived in the mountains most of my life and only a couple years in a city. I’d take the mountains any day. The view doesn’t get old (at least to me). The air quality and noise alone are enough for me to not want to go back to a city.
I’m still working at simplifying my life a lot, and I still am on the internet more than I want to be, but If you’re really finding yourself getting bored by not constantly interacting with the shiny new thing, then maybe the impediment of modern life is the problem.
I’m finding the more time I choose to break away from the screen, my self esteem improves, I care more about my health (physical and mental), I spend more time with my family, and the world doesn’t seem to be as heavy.
>>If you’re really finding yourself getting bored by not constantly interacting with the shiny new thing, then maybe the impediment of modern life is the problem.
The real question of modern life, or may be all life. How much wasted effort goes into acquiring things which one doesn't need? That includes need to be entertained by the minute.
In the context of a motorcycle, I realise how different riding a motorcycle is compared to say driving a car. When you are driving a motorcycle. You feel the sun, the air, the cold, the heat, the drizzle, you enjoy the perspectives and feelings of all kinds(mountains, sun, oceans, lakes, rivers, trees) now you don't feel the need for music as this is entertainment enough. Heck even stopping for food and restroom breaks feels enjoyable.
Compare this to say a car, where you need to play something like music or a podcast to act as fillers to replace all that feeling. Taking a break feels like stepping out of some boredom and tiresome activity.
I have come to realise the need for these constant background entertainment needs largely stem from being in a largely non-interactive, non-responsive, non-natural environments(equivalent of sensory deprivation) where engagement with things around is either 0, or not something that your instinct naturally enjoys.
> Honestly how long are you going to enjoy the Mountain view?
Speaking as somebody who's been living with mountain views for many years now - pretty much forever. There's something intrinsic about nature that just makes you feel good and refreshed. And it seemingly never changes.
And I don't think its the slower cadence to rural life that makes it so much more pleasant, but more of the social aspects. There's this weird phenomena in the city that you might live in a square mile with thousands of other people, yet on average you probably have exactly 0 people you have a relationship beyond regular casual greetings with. By contrast in a rural area there might only be tens of people within a square mile, maybe even less, yet you probably have a very good relationship with a sizable chunk of them all.
In some way I think we can even see this online. You've been posting here for over a decade, made thousands of posts, and I've never once noticed your name. I'm sure the same is true of me for you. Why? Because there's so many friggin people and posts that we never even stop to look at names, unless there's some freak occurrence where we just keep constantly bumping into each other, and notice that.
And I think the same is true in real life. The more people there are, the less likely you are to repeatedly bump into somebody else, and notice it. And vice versa for the fewer people there are. So I think this goes some way to explaining the seemingly paradoxical fact that there are substantially lower rates of loneliness in areas where there's far fewer people. We didn't evolve living stuffed like sardines in a can, and I don't think it's an overall healthy lifestyle.
> I do have relatives who live in far villages and have not travelled and seen the world(In fact not travelled more than 100 km radius from place of birth)
This was literally where I grew up before I got education and become software engineer.
Its not a good thing and we should not glorify it.
Villagers in India are malnourished, the education is not upto par with cities, and the life is stagnant there. There's no opportunity to carve out your own niche or achieve glory in life.
oTOH, The metropolitons like Bengaluru or Delhi are highly populated and make life difficult unless you live inside a posh gated society. The competition there to get highest TC job and grind till you break down just to own a house is also not healthy. Not to even mention pollution and health hazards.
We should focus on developing tier-2 and tier-3 cities. They can be developed on par with western cities in cleanliness and infrastructure as long as we can keep the population density low.
Large metropolitan cities in India are purely for job reasons.
I do believe buying expensive real estate in a city like Bangalore is pointless. You can put the same money in a good mutual fund, and buy a home in a Tier 2 city around Bangalore. You can reach Bangalore in an hour for most of things.
The pollution, population density and pace are all a lot lower. Plus if the idea is to retire early, this is like the best plan you can come up with.
That’s just an artifact of modern life. Pool enough money between family and friends and you can buy yourself a cheap plot of land in the middle of nowhere and wild out on your own agrarian commune