Poker is a great game. There are so many aspects to it where you can go down a rabbit hole of strategy to improve your game - there's math, making decisions with incomplete information, deduction, reading people, all kinds of non-verbal communication, etc. Although there's chance involved, it is undoubtedly a skill game. The gambling is one of the unfortunate aspects, but it just doesn't play the same without some money involved. You can get around that a little bit with house games where everyone throws in $20 or small buy-in sit and go games at a casino.
Another game that's worth checking out if some of this sounds interesting but you really don't like gambling is "Blood on the Clocktower". It's a social logic and deduction party game. There's chance, bluffing, incomplete information, trying to figure out what other players have, etc. It's completely different, but it can scratch some of the same itches and it's a blast to play. My friends and I play it with our kids.
Yes. See 'Thinking in Bets' by Annie Duke for a good summary of why Poker is interesting / useful. World is Casino!
Blood on the Clocktower is great! My 15yo son is always trying to get a group of 8+ together for a game.
Came here to recommend Skull, a quick and easy to learn bluffing game, of which the designer said he was aiming for 'the feelings of poker without the money or luck' and I would say succeeded.
"the only victory condition is that you take money from other people" is also why I cannot be interested in day trading or cryptocurrency speculation, and will likely die penniless.
As a former poker pro: I hated gambling, I just was willing to do it when I had an edge and at poker I had an edge. I almost never gambled at anything else unless I was getting an edge from promotions. Still don’t.
There’s a approximately a 45% chance of losing money on any given day, even for the best players, but it decreases over a big sample. It’s definitely a marathon, not a sprint. That’s true of most things worth doing though.
It’s not lying when it’s part of the game, and kinda silly to view it that way. Is it lying by omission to not tell your chess opponent your strategy?
You are stuck sitting at a table, that’s true. But you choose when you’re there and the only rules really are basic civility so I never found that part difficult.
Money is the scoreboard. Everyone who sits down knows that. I’d argue it’s a lot less bad than how most tech companies make money these days. I’m not selling anyone’s data without them knowing about or understanding it. I’m just taking money from a guy who is trying to take my money. We both voluntarily put the money up to be taken and can stop doing so at any point.
This tracks. Not a pro here, but if you have a 5% edge at a $20 8-seat home game your EV is BEST CASE maybe $20/hour. Which is good for entertainment but not much else
Well, if you’re paying NL against people who don’t know what they’re doing, your win rate should be much higher. But yeah you can only take however much money is on the table so nobody makes a living playing the really low stakes.
Back in my day most cash games were limit hold’em (it’s been awhile) and you could pretty easily get to making $50 an hour beating up an amateurs. That was equivalent to about $90/hr today which is pretty great if you’re a young kid playing a game you enjoy.
It entirely depends on the vibes, the company, and the game, in my opinion.
At one job, we used it as a social time, 6 to 15 people from work (had to run two tables for those big nights) got together Saturday night, bbq'd some food, maybe watched a game on tv if there was a good one, and played a friendly game. Had a few drinks and enjoyed the company, while cards were played in the background.
Mildly competitive, but it was a flat $40 buy in with no more money allowed so the stakes were never incredibly high.
At another company, one guy in particular was the driver to get games going and he always wanted the stakes too high (for my taste) with lots of money moving around. I only went to two of those, wasn't my style.
With that mindset literally anything is unfun. Do you enjoy anything in particular that does not produce value? If so, you're also very likely losing something, stuck somewhere, etc.
Texas hold 'em is quite fun for casuals under these conditions:
The amount of money involved is small compared to the incomes of those playing, where most players have the expectation that they won't get money back and that is fine for the enjoyment they get out of the game, and the pot isn't big enough to be worth cheating about.
Everyone puts in the same amount of money.
You play texas hold 'em no limit with escalating blinds starting with a pretty big stack of chips, just like a real tournament.
When people are out, they can't buy back in.
You play until everyone is out, and the Top N players get some money back.
Lots of fun games involve lying, but you can play all night long and never tell a single lie and still win. Your only necessary verbs in a game of poker are "Call, raise, fold". Everything else is optional. If you bet big on a hand, you aren't saying anything about what is in your hand, lie or not. All the interpretation of what that means is in your opponents head. Lots of very good poker players don't talk about the hands at all.
My family quite commonly plays Texas Hold 'em for _no money at all_, everyone just gets a stack of chips.
Yeah this is really the best way to do it, I've even played friendly family games with candy or baked goods as the chips. Great fun! Problematic when you're munching on your bank though.
When I play games like this, I don't bet more than I can afford to lose - and paying $20 to sit at a table with friends playing poker is actually cheaper than going out to a bar with them.
> - the point of the game is to lie to friends and strangers
Are there any games with hidden information that you find interesting? Or any competitive games at all? Things like Werewolf, or Go Fish, or Settlers of Catan? For that matter, even in a game without hidden information, like chess, you're still trying to outwit your opponents.
> - you're stuck sitting at a table and following rules for hours
I mean, you can leave if you're not having fun.
> - the only victory condition is that you take money from other people
I'll share my experience. Playing a small pot poker game every now and then can be fun between friends. I've had a few groups of guys I'd go play poker with from time to time throughout the years.
The buy in would be something kind of low for everyone playing, like $20. No repeat buy-ins. So the loss if you didn't win wasn't much, and the payout wasn't exactly life changing but like take your spouse out to a nice date night with the winnings kind of thing. I'd often spend $20 or so doing some other kind of event with friends from time to time anyways, so its not like its some large amount being spent on entertainment. Paying for a batting cage for the evening or go-karts or renting a karaoke booth is also a 100% chance of losing money, should we also never do these things?
There's lots of deception to be played in tons of card games and board games, I don't know why poker would be held as something odd. Any game where you're holding a secret hand pretty much involves some amount of hidden motivations. One might also bluff in Catan or deceive their opponents in their strategy, should we also avoid playing that game? I'll try and hide my routes from everyone else when I'm playing ticket to ride, is that bad?
I'm stuck sitting at a table and following rules for hours. Like any other board or card game. People are stuck sitting at a table and following rules for hours playing tabletop role-playing games as well. To me, it was a chance to catch up with these friends, which at that point in time in our lives catching up at the poker game was kind of the big quarterly check-in with each other. I loved spending the time with these friends, sitting around the table and sharing life with each other, often also partaking in meals and drinks.
The victory condition is winning the pot, yes. Which, as mentioned, for at least in my games wasn't exactly some life changing amount of money one was taking from friends. We all went in knowing we'd probably be out the $20 in the end, and in the end the winner would have a small amount of money as a little bonus. And as mentioned, most of us would use it to take our significant others out on a date the next night.
I honestly don't see it as any different from spending a night playing any other board game or roleplaying game with friends, other than with a small bit of money involved as well. Obviously, other people go way harder with this gambling, which quickly just becomes an addition to the high of winning.
Poker is so much fun with friends. It's not about winning, it's about hanging out and being a little competitive. It's a great way to hang out in real life for a few hours in today's online world.
I hate casino games but I enjoy poker. I don't play often anymore but I used to play online a lot, multi tabling.
There's something very satisfying about making thousands of decisions that have a positive expected value and seeing the math win throughout the variance, resulting in a proven edge.
Like anything in life, it's fun to get good at something and at some point it's beyond the math and theory, it feels like the cards become transparent at times, you just have a gut feeling that this hand, this person is trying to bluff. It can be based on what you know about them or just how fast they clicked or their bet size, but this guy wants you to fold so you'll call with almost nothing and still win.
But overall as a profession fuck poker, you don't contribute anything to the world.
Skiing is downright sisyphean. I'm only sort of joking - I live in Switzerland and since I started ski-touring, where you climb up the mountain and then ski down it, this feeling is even stronger.
But I think Sisyphus must have gotten at least some satisfaction for almost reaching the top.
paying money for a service and gambling are not totally different, especially if you more or less know your odds before entering. ./when I play blackjack (rarely) I understand I am more or less paying to play a game for enjoyment.
This is honestly an odd take. For most people the money is in exchange for having fun (there are pros and likely addicts though for which the money is the goal). I play in fantasy sports leagues and I pay into them. I don’t even care about winning the pot - I enjoy the game. The victory condition is having fun. Winning money is a bonus.
The point of the game isn’t to lie to friends. Is this how you see the point of chess or sports in general? Or any game where revealing your strategy would diminish your chances of winning?
I don’t think your comment is very HN typical, but it does indicate some other qualities you may have - not bad or good, but not typical.
I don't consider poker gambling (that would be something like craps which I also find fun). It is a skill you can build and not necessarily lose money. I also don't consider it lying when everyone at the table agrees to how the game is played. Playing 'good' poker requires folding a lot and it can get boring sitting at a table.
Poker is a lot like business distilled down. The player is managing resources and deciding where to use them while dealing with incomplete information.
You got many answers already, but a couple more points:
Poker doesn't require lying or table talk. Bluffing is rule-legal strategic deception expressed through betting. More like a feint in sports than cheating.
If "sitting at a table following rules" is the issue, that's true of most games. And formats vary: many are short and cash games are leave-anytime.
I dislike all gambling except poker. Anything that is purely chance and not within my control at all (roulette, sports betting) is dull and stressful. The odds are always against you. Poker has a big element of chance of course, but it’s really a game of skill. It hits a sweet spot of mathematics and social engineering that lights up a lot of neurons in a very engaging way.
When it comes to lying, in the real world I tend to be hypermoral and honest to a fault. It’s fun to have a game structure where dishonesty and aggression are acceptable.
- high likelihood you lose money
- the point of the game is to lie to friends and strangers
- you're stuck sitting at a table and following rules for hours
- the only victory condition is that you take money from other people