Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

I am not sure that you can make that absolute statement. Reasoning is subdivided into types, and one of those types is inductive reasoning.

> Inductive reasoning refers to a variety of methods of reasoning in which the conclusion of an argument is supported not with deductive certainty, but with some degree of probability. Unlike deductive reasoning (such as mathematical induction), where the conclusion is certain, given the premises are correct, inductive reasoning produces conclusions that are at best probable, given the evidence provided.

Doesn't predicting the next token qualify as doing just that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning




Markov chains have done that for ages. They aren't AI. This is just that scaled up.

Just because it can infer a token doesn't mean it can infer a conclusion to an argument.


> This is just that scaled up

An LLM is not a Markov process. They are fundamentally different. An LLM conditions the next token prediction on the entire context window (via the attention mechanism), not just the previous token. Besides the token history window it also maintains a cache of neural activations which is updated at every step.

Otherwise you could use the same reasoning to argue that a human is a Markov process, which is absurd, but vacuously true if "state" means the quantum level configuration of every atom in the body.


To add a bit to this : expert systems have two properties. They give an answer, and they explain their reasoning.

LLM cannot explain their reasoning, and that is because there is no reasoning.


To push back on this, a somewhat recent Linus Torvalds ~quote:

"I don't think that 'just predicting the next word' is the insult that people think it is, it's mostly what we all do."

If we break our lives down into the different types of reasoning, and what we mostly do day-to-day, this rings very true to me.

I currently believe that our brains generally operate as very efficient inference machines. Sometimes we slow down to think things through, but for example, when in the ideal "flow state" it's some kind of distilled efficient inference. Isn't it? This is very hard for me to deny at this time.

___

edit:

4o appears to agree with both of you, more than it does with me.

https://chatgpt.com/share/68119b41-1144-8012-b50d-f8f15997eb...

However, Sonnet 3.7 appears to side with me.

https://claude.ai/share/91139bca-3201-4ffc-a940-bdd27329e71f

(Both of these are the default models available for free accounts, on each website, at the time of writing)

IMO, hey, at least we do live in interesting times.


I may be wrong, but it seems to me this also is a case of improper use of words.

Those LLMs neither agree nor disagree. They do not understand. They produce output, and we read that output and we ourselves consider the output to be something, or something else.

All an LLM does is produce output. There's no conceptual understanding behind it, and so there is no agreement, or disagreement.


> All an LLM does is produce output. There's no conceptual understanding behind it, and so there is no agreement, or disagreement.

I think that I agree. However, even on HN, what percentage of human comments are simply some really basic inference, aka output/"reddit"/etc... and those are humans.

I am not trying to elevate LLMs to some form of higher intelligence, my only point is that most of the time, we are not all that much better. Even the 0.000001% best of us fall into these habits sometimes. [0]

I currently believe that modern LLM architecture will likely not lead to AGI/ASI. However, even without that, they could do a lot.

I could also be very wrong.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_disease


LLMs learn high-dimensional representations that capture conceptual relationships in their training data. They manipulate those representations in ways that approximate human reasoning.


> They manipulate those representations in ways that approximate human reasoning.

Fwiw, this is the story of my life. Seriously.


LOL everyone is like that most of the time.

System 1 vs System 2 thinking.

System 1 is rapid, uses heuristics to make quick judgements. Not rigorous. System 1 is the default mode.

System 2 is slow deliberate reasoning, energy intensive, and even humans get that wrong.

LLMs often use something like System 1 pattern matching, get the answer wrong initially, then can be prodded into trying again with a System 2 approach (chain of thought).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: