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How do you go from "successful" to "useful"?

There seems to be no logical connection from "shitty people are successful" to "empathy is not useful to society."



Because empathy isn't useful to society. One only lives once so you better make sure you'll be successful. Having empathy will actively hurt your own life


> empathy isn't useful to society ... Having empathy will actively hurt your own life

Even if I accepted the second statement (which to be clear, I absolutely do not), it doesn't follow that empathy isn't useful to society. Society is not benefited by everyone running about chasing their own personal success to the exclusion of all others: that kind of world isn't even called a society. We have other names for that and they're less positive.


I am aware people have trouble building this mental model of an unempathetic society. I am old enough to have witnessed that in 99% of situations people are directly responsible for their own situation. There is no reason to have empathy.


> building this mental model of an unempathetic society

No, it's not about mental models, it's that what you're describing is, at the limit, no longer a society at all. You need a different word for the kind of Randian endgame you're advocating for. Using "society" for it is just confusing things for everyone involved.


You think that's what you've witnessed, but perhaps you're confirming a distorted prejudice and not a reality - because that's exactly what someone who lacks empathy would see.

People who can't see green are evidence of a genetic defect, not evidence that green doesn't exist.


>I am old enough to have witnessed that in 99% of situations people are directly responsible for their own situation

Old people can be wrong, and in this case, they are.

>There is no reason to have empathy.

This is a category mistake. You reason that empathy is superfluous if people are the cause of their misfortune. However, whether people are the cause of their misfortunes is utterly irrelevant to whether there is a reason to have empathy.

So far, none of your arguments have had any discernible logic behind them. If you are so convinced that empathy is needless, why can you not articulate a coherent argument for your position?


You not seeing arguments doesn't invalidate them. You arent the judge on this.


Do you think this response will convince anyone that you are correct? You still fail to provide an argument; you're just being unpleasant. To what end?

Is that what not having empathy in a society feels like? People just talking at each other without any particular goal in mind other than being unpleasant to each other?


> will convince anyone

Are you sure that would be the poster's attempt.

> you're just being

He seems to be discussing, to some of us.


>Are you sure that would be the poster's attempt.

What do you suspect he is attempting to do?


There is a chance he is just seeing whether discussing brings some benefit - as he likes to say. Which is a good thing. Better than the opposite.


There's no discussion happening, though! They're just repeating themselves over and over and ignoring the contents of any replies.


Because the replies ignore the contents of my replies, weird isnt it


Counter perspective: you deflect instead of answering direct questions, which is more like talking at people instead of having dialogue.


This is false. I quoted you and made counterpoints. You repeatedly ignored what I said and instead chose to say peculiar things like, "you arent (sic) the judge on this."

Anyone can read this thread and see this for themselves.


What do I gain from convincing people on the internet about something? Its entertainment for me. Simply showing people how I think is fun. People always act so shocked.


I'm not shocked, but it's not surprising that you don't understand other people's emotions—or your own. You don't just lack empathy; you also lack introspection. I feel strongly that it would be beneficial for you to work on that.


>99% of situations people are directly responsible for their own situation.

This seems to be a flawed mental model in itself.

At the very least, you should elaborate on your definition of empathy. Do you think cognitive empathy is bad? If so, you’re ignoring that social interactions impact outcomes.


> mental model of an unempathetic society

You mean, like, a pack of wild dogs?


"My confirmation bias has proven me right 99% of the time!"


> useful to society

On the contrary, the "respect" towards others is a condition to societies. Otherwise, all you'd had would be "accomplices". And also since Edward Bunker told us that actually, "dog eat dog",

> will actively hurt your own life

in a pool of free rogues you'll be at severe disadvantage as opposed to a society.

> One only lives once so you better make sure

you will achieve what you should. That includes¹ being something good, not just having some fleeting goods.

--

¹Edit: I wrote 'includes', but that's rhetoric - I meant "mostly is".


Society already is full of rogues and guess who is winning in this game? The super rich already buying themselves out of society, punishment usually only hurts the ones who already barely own anything. Whats the benefit of a "society"?


There are other societies than the American one and I recommend you look at them before you make such sweeping statements


I am not American, and the same thing is happening in every country.


Generally, high-trust societies work better than low-trust societies.


> and guess who is winning

Again that is your perspective on "winning", which remains subjective (and normally faulty). Others call psychopathic achievers simply "contemptible".

> Whats the benefit of a "society"?

That would be the whole work of Thomas Hobbes, for example: avoiding the nightmare of perpetual conflict. It is very linear to see the benefit of being able to trust your neighbour.


Trusting your neighbor already is a mistake. Well people like me benefit from society as I can benefit from people being naive.


>Well people like me benefit from society as I can benefit from people being naive

Then, you acknowledge that you benefit from empathy. But only so long as people do not detect that you are not participating in mutual understanding and reciprocation. Once they notice your lack of genuine engagement, your previously gained benefits will disappear.

On the other hand, people who exhibit empathy towards others will continue to benefit.

Do you see that, by your own logic, empathy is beneficial to society?


> already is a mistake

No. Very clearly I meant "to be able to trust your neighbour is an asset; not being able to trust your neighbour is a liability", which is a plain analytic basic reply to your question. The statement you replied with has nothing to do with what I have written. If there was a misunderstanding, instead of just bad communication, it may reveal why you see things in a twisted way - but then know it is really a faulty perspective, not the state of things.

Of course you can be """benefiting""" from the lack of society, the "frontier anarchy" in which you implicitly declare are in: were it a society, you would have received since a very early age a credible absolute threat of violence, or shunning, which would have destroyed an advantage of profiting inappropriately.


> Well people like me benefit from society as I can benefit from people being naive.

So you’re a leech on society, got it.


I even contribute, by paying taxes. Weird leech


Because you want to or because you are too much of a coward not to?

Something tells me you’d be face down in a ditch somewhere if the world actually reflected your ideal instead of the comfy one we live in where you get to take advantage of the “naive”.


Taxes in my country get automatically paid before I even see the money, so I dont rlly have a choice


> …I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men. Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.

– Captain G. M. Gilbert, Psychologist at Nuremberg Trials


That implies there is evil, who's the judge on good vs evil?


People who have developed judgement. The blind are not judges on visible colours, those with good eyesight are.


Easy: evil lacks empathy. All it takes to not be evil is... empathy.


Pretty sure the Nazis leaned towards evil, my dude.


And for OP's benefit because they presumably missed the attribution of the quote, these were the Nuremberg trials:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials


Studies show that the primary predictor for happiness is personal relationships. Make of that what you will.


What kind of people is the study based on? Does it include people with mental disorders? I dont value personal relationships.


Then, you should acknowledge that your experience is not representative of most other people and that basing general arguments like "empathy is useless" on your personal feelings is deeply flawed.

(But also, you come across as unhappy and angry, so maybe you're wrong about whether you need personal relationships to be happy. Many people are bad at understanding what makes them happy and end up unhappy because they mistakenly pursue things like wealth.)


Did you confuse society with yourself?


> Because empathy isn't useful to society.

things that lack empathy: corporations, machines, AI, psychopaths things that are problematic to society: corporations, machines, AI, psychopaths




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