Thinking from a different perspective, if the Chinese government has banned import of NVIDIA GPU, or downloading U.S. made llm because of so called national security reasons, DeepSeek certainly won't make such progress.
Today we are even more closed than CCP, what a joke. These elites'/attorney politicians just can't stop their arrogant attitude towards a non-western country's achievement. This is just going to destroy the industry at U.S.
Unless they're prepared to build The Great Firewall around America it's kind of cute that they think they can stop us from downloading these models. And of course stupid to want to try to stop us because if there's something to be learned from them they need to be distributed widely so that we can figure out what they've done and where they're headed.
They can sue 3000 people for millions of damages, and that will have the expected effect of banning any illicit downloading of files. I mean, it worked for torrents back in 2002, why shouldn't it work for downloading LLM files?
The funny thing is, open source A.I. music doesn't even exist yet, and at some point 2005 to 2008, music related queries were number 1 in google search. When a good music program will be released, no person on the planet will even think of downloading illegal music A.I.s.
If there's a law against downloading or possessing it, and they're serious about enforcing it, they absolutely can stop you. Yes you could still do it, and maybe even avoid detection, but would you, if getting caught meant prison time?
They already tried to wall the entire Southern border. Guaranteed, some company will step up to the plate and offer to do the same for the internet. The claim will be even easier to sell, considering we've been selling the Chinese the hardware to do it for years. Someone is about to get bloody rich (or richer) stamping on our rights.
There's no way one country continue to be the only super power / innovation center, one way or the other, we will get to the next world order of innovation. and the path to the new order will not be comfortable, denying reality as a self-defense mechanism will be inevitable for a period of time, hopefully not too long.
I think there are reasoned arguments about TikTok, export control, etc. Heck I’m old enough to remember the Clipper chip debate (go google that if you’re <30yo)
But you undercut yourself when you say that we are “more closed” than the ccp. That’s demonstrably false. Just starting with the gfw for one.
If I have to be precise with my natural languages sure, more closed on certain dimensions
Recent years efforts from these politicians make me believe we are heading towards the direction that one day it's not just certain dimensions but fully isolated.
Name one Chinese EV you can buy in U.S.
Name one U.S. EV you can buy in China
Now we want to do the same efforts for llm, not even allow to download to run locally that is specifically from China, and running llm doesn't even need Internet.
Honestly I've never heard such legislation in any other country, not even north korea or iran.
I can understand ban export, but banning import? Seriously? Even Kim Jong Un is riding with Mercedes.
So. This hasn’t happened yet. It’s just a bill sponsored by a nut job representative. Not a law. Not even put up for debate yet.
From your definition, North Korea forbids the “import” of most of the Internet for normal citizens. The fact that Kim jong un can drive around a Mercedes is just showing the supreme leader can get whatever he wants under a despotic state- if through some miracle this stupid bill became law and Trump wanted to run deepseek on his government laptop I’m sure he could do so as well.
There is truth in the statement that the CcP is more open than the US, counterfactual truth if you like but the CCP is in itself such a vast and diverse culture, that it has no choice but to be accomodating to many social,intelectual, language, and religious groups, and has technological and economic disparities that run the gamut from stone age tribes to the cities of the future. The CCP has one primary rule : dont mess with brand China.
Everything is possible, except the things that involve foriegn or alien though and control.
So there is no technological constraints in China,pattents and copyright are not weaponised, its still a meritocracy for business and intelectual achivement. The only reason they buy things from the west, is that we do those things better than them, closing those doors will only focus there , formitable, attention on achiving there well stated goals by whatever, pragmatic ,means are best.
And we are closed to the idea of actual merit and competition, and instead limit creativity, and treat markets, as property.And are so so fucked.
And what? tumpy is set to make those same
co- religion members, illegal, again!
my point is that it's America that is sliping, relative to what it was, and that China has real advantages that will insulate it from almost anything that anybody can do.
And let me be personal for a moment, in that amongst other heritage, my paternal grandmother was of Mongol origin, and it very very difficult to read about the banning of teaching Mongolian, and then there are many other sub-groups there in China, suffering a slow forced dissalusion. But that is ongoing, everywhere, like say the undermining(unintentional pun) of the Sami, the last semi nomadic indiginous population in Europe,
who made the greavous mistake of spending the last 15000 years living on top of valuable minerals.
Wasn't Isolationism the practice that was strongly, negatively spoken about when people were going through middle and high school as "the way to fall behind"? and "what all those people that didn't advance did for centuries and it harmed them"?
And that, which I also disagree with, is different, still. With TikTok, US citizens were not banned from using the app, or downloading it from overseas.
ByteDance had an opportunity to sell TikTok to any company that isn’t based out of an enemy country that is known to have taken actions against the U.S. and its citizens.
I am wondering, at what point we will start observing economic effects from this kind of governance we are seeing now and in the last couple of weeks. I feel that only the economic crisis/slump may force to change course from the ongoing transformation to totalitarianism.
Unfortunately there is no guarantee that there will be economic effects. For example many companies tried to stay in Russia long after Russia started the war in Ukraine, and many left only after significant pressure.
An economic effect is always very delayed. The stock markets may react relatively quickly, but the actual effect often takes a pretty long time to be reflected in GDP or similar metrics. For example, Brexit also took several years before even the last fishermen had to accept that things did not get better. So even if Trump was to entirely ruin the econnomy, it's unlikely it'll really be felt before he's out of office again.
though there is the occasional example that actually fucks it up to a degree that things escalate even within their ruling period - i.e. canadas renting crisis right now
Good points. I guess if the bond markers react and obtaining new or refinancing old debt becomes more expensive, I can see how that can affect things quicker. Especially given the role of treasuries in all financial markets.
What's silly about this is, if a company that wants to publicize can meet / beat the US benchmarks, then who knows what some state owned entity that's performing R&D in the background could easily achieve. Any reactions made by the US is a waste of time, just focus on pushing the US technology further and leapfrog.
> (a) PROHIBITION ON IMPORTATION On and after the date that is 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the importation into the United States of artificial intelligence or generative artificial intelligence technology or intellectual property developed or produced in the People’s Republic of China is prohibited.
> (b) PROHIBITION ON EXPORT.—On and after the date that is 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the export, reexport, or in-country transfer of artificial intelligence or generative artificial intelligence technology or intellectual property to or within the People’s Republic of China is prohibited.
This seems worded significantly more broadly than just artificial intelligence; it covers any "intellectual property" at all? Couldn't this prohibit, for example, Apple's ability to sell the iPhone or distribute iOS in China?
PROHIBITION ON IMPORTATION.—On and after the date that is 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the importation into the United States of artificial intelligence or generative artificial intelligence technology or intellectual property developed or produced in the People’s Republic of China is prohibited
But if you download a model locally, it doesn't spy for CCP. Only if you use an app and send your query to be executed in China. Lawmakers seem to not understand such simple matters.
And transfers from China as well. The relevant section:
PROHIBITION ON IMPORTATION.—On and after the date that is 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the importation into the United States of artificial intelligence or generative artificial intelligence technology or intellectual property developed or produced in the People’s Republic of China is prohibited
I have ... concerns about how this information was found. Does anyone know the path to walk on the individual's website that gets you to the Word Press page?
Somehow it seems relevant that he shares the name "Hawley" with the guy who co-sponsored "Smoot-Hawley". Seems like this bill would be similarly destructive.
All attempts to propagate the liberal-democratic policy that is the repression of capital are countered by the nomadic drive for profit. What is more concerning than a bunch of inept fat cops is the black markets that naturally arise within legitimate white collar enterprises that will have appeared to have been compliant with the democratic imposition. The Al Capones of the next level of software development should be capable enough to spot the flaws and opportunities that can be discovered in the democratic world-system. This intelligence, awareness, and sensibility includes the critique of what mistake the current authoritarian hegemony will have made to result in the demise of faith in legislative process and congressional determination.
One important news to note is that the ones sponsoring prohibitions of effective engineering implementations are simply the criminals that got a head start in the cosmopolitan grab for economic power. This is consistent with the theory that techno-commercial incumbents dislike competition, likely because they don't really deserve their top positions and now they have to fight against nature's angry wraith which dislikes impostors in the field of technology and science. A really disorienting war between very cunning capitalists to either watch or participate in, if you can keep up with the dynamics.
edit:
It's okay if a repulsive nerd like Sam Altman uses a fraction of his billionaire wealth to ban DeepSeek. You can still be productive with a distilled seven billion parameter model like Mistral. The hacker spirit is about being resourceful and looking for ways to do a lot with little, despite the secrets being hidden through some temporary epistemological case.
TikTok feels pretty clear. China doesn't allow any western internet platforms to operate in the country. Why should the world allow a Chinese social media platform?
No such thing anymore. The cult that worships politics and politicians these days will turn anything and everything into a partisan issue somehow, no matter the mental contortions required to do so.
The US has never allowed unfettered foreign competition in its domestic market, and neither do most other nations (including, very notably, China).
The US has always done what every other nation seeks to do, which is to try to obtain favorable trade terms for exports while restricting imports that would harm domestic business.
This particular bill is idiotic, likely because it was spawned by an idiot. But the general concept of protecting domestic enterprises from foreign competition who are not subject to the same rules has always been part of trade policy.
Exactly, it's basically a law of nature, but significant resources were invested in brainwashing people with propaganda to the contrary. That's the problem, the hypocrisy, the irony - not how the world actually works, which may be entirely unavoidable.
Same sorts of laws are the reason why it's generally difficult to import really cheap vehicles from overseas unless they're of a certain age, Chinese or not. Classical example that gained publicity are Japanese "Kei Trucks" that can only be imported after they're 25 years old.
And yeah, they cite safety as the reason. But as a motorcycle rider, I put a tank of explosive liquid against my crotch on a vehicle that will send me flying if one tire loses traction too badly with minimal safety mechanisms against it, and in my state I technically don't even have to wear a helmet.
On the other end of the spectrum, the most popular cars in the nation are the size of a light tank, and will smash into you at center mass before throwing you underneath them if you get hit by one.
Today we are even more closed than CCP, what a joke. These elites'/attorney politicians just can't stop their arrogant attitude towards a non-western country's achievement. This is just going to destroy the industry at U.S.
We have seen examples of EV and Drones already.