I disagree with your "explanations" that are presented as justifications. Ukraine wasn't a NATO proxy in 2014, yet Russia invaded.
Let's be honest, it was a good play from Putin. No one did anything, there was no real punishment. He thought that the same thing would happen in 2022, but it turns out things are a bit harder now.
You just can't understand why would any Ukrainian resist an invasion force, that's why for you they're just fighting for US interests. If you had read any history, you'd know that many people have the same reaction, as weird that might sound to you.
I have friends in Ukraine. The week after the 2022 invasion started, one of them shared with the last voice note of a friend that had died in northern Kyiv... I didn't understand anything, but you could hear the sadness in his voice. I never saw this guy speaking of Russia or of politics, but that was the changing point. Having to go to shelters every night due to missile strikes from this "friendly country" didn't help.
Another one, from Kharkiv (or Kharkov as he calls it, since he speaks Russian), ended up separated from his family when they fled west after something hit the apartment block some of their family lived in. They're back in Ukraine, but do you think he loves Russia now? You'll blame the US for this "hate"... but the people there know who's attacking Ukraine... it's Russia.
You'll never understand their point of view because you don't want to understand it. You'll keep blaming the US and praising Russia...
People that overthrew the government were very much NATO proxies. Leading groups such as the Right Sector had open Nazi sympathies. Plenty of Ukranian refugees around me. They wouldnt fight for either Zelnski/NATO or Putin. They consider themselves lucky for escaping and say that majority of people there do not want to fight but are forced to. They are terified that Zelenski is lobbying western governmentsbto send these men back to Ukraine as cannon fodder. Why are so many Ukranians not as keen to fight as you apparently are?
Most Ukrainians, Russians, me, you, don't want to be in a war. Those who could leave, did so (even Russians after the forced conscription).
I don't know why it's so hard for you to accept that some people might want to fight for their country. Those who are forced - something that every country does - often accept it, not because they love it, but because like their grandfathers, it's their turn to defend their land. I can see a few reasons for someone from Ukraine to fight, a Russian on the other hand... maybe for the money? What else?
Only in your head is that everyone fighting are only doing so for Zelenskyy or NATO... do you think the average person gives a shit about Zelenskyy or NATO? But the fight came to them, so it was either resistance or acceptance of a new master. You think they should bend over... but this is like a robbery... some people just hand their wallet, some try to fight the thieve. It's a mistake to ignore human nature. Not everyone is like you.
Revolutions are not made by moderated people as those are at home watching TV... so yeah, not very nice people were involved. Find me a revolution where this hasn't happened...
I'll make 5 points:
- The "Azov battalion" was only created in February of 2014, after the invasion of Crimea in January and after the Ukrainian army shat its pants (yes, that's the army that was going to join NATO).
- In the 2019 elections when Zelenskyy - a jew - was elected, the far-right party (Svoboda) only received 2.16% of the votes and only had one seat in the parliament. So much for a country full of nazis.
- It's not smart to take some nazis and make them national heroes like Russia did with Azov after their last stand at Mariupol. It only makes the problem worse... another genius move from Russia.
- When there's a war that it's seen as for national defence, it's the ultra nationalists that stand up. The average person doesn't want to fight. It's not a coincidence that you'll find far right people in both Ukraine's and Russia's armies.
- Russia started the fight and can stop at any time. Why only ask Ukraine to stop, but not Russia?
> Haha nice to see you come out of the closet. Anti fascist guerillas of WW2 would beg to differ. I my self think it cowardly to hate the other guy on the opposing side just because he was thrown in to fight. Being forced to die for someone elses interests and pocket is a terrible fate, and this applies to Russians and Ukranians alike.
The list is obviously longer than just ultra nationalists, but the anti fascist weren't exactly fighting for some international community (eg: partisans in Italy). They would fight the fascists and if invaded by others, they would fight them too. They were fighting for themselves and to liberate their country.
The point, which maybe wasn't clear, is that it's those with more "extreme" views that stand up, not the average person that wants to run away. The early groups in Ukraine after Russia invaded were not just neo nazis. They even had groups of anarchists fighting in the east.
> For some reason none of those Azov fighters that rubbed bacon on their bullets because the Chechens were coming are so brave and loud now. I wonder what happened
Mostly dead, I assume. For all I care, they can all disappear. Them and the "ruscists".
But you missed the point here too... How many units were named after Azov before and after the siege? Do you think it's a good idea to create conditions for them to be "glorified" since they were sacrificing themselves (whether you agree or not is besides the point) if the intention is to denazify a country?
The UN puts the number of civilians killed in Ukraine since 2022 at just over 10,000 (on both sides). That is 4 times LESS than the number of Palestinian civilians killed by Israelis in just 12 months. But for some reason we are not talking about this anywhere near as much. This is but a small example of hypocrisy that created the monster that is Putin. You might say you blame Putin for popularity of Azov (you actually like them but ran back into the closet), but then you might as well blame the hypocrisy of US and its double standards for popularity of Putin, who is obviously a much bigger problem for you. In the same way the hypocrisy of the elitist Democratic Party in the US created the monster that is the popularity of Trump
Let's be honest, it was a good play from Putin. No one did anything, there was no real punishment. He thought that the same thing would happen in 2022, but it turns out things are a bit harder now.
You just can't understand why would any Ukrainian resist an invasion force, that's why for you they're just fighting for US interests. If you had read any history, you'd know that many people have the same reaction, as weird that might sound to you.
I have friends in Ukraine. The week after the 2022 invasion started, one of them shared with the last voice note of a friend that had died in northern Kyiv... I didn't understand anything, but you could hear the sadness in his voice. I never saw this guy speaking of Russia or of politics, but that was the changing point. Having to go to shelters every night due to missile strikes from this "friendly country" didn't help.
Another one, from Kharkiv (or Kharkov as he calls it, since he speaks Russian), ended up separated from his family when they fled west after something hit the apartment block some of their family lived in. They're back in Ukraine, but do you think he loves Russia now? You'll blame the US for this "hate"... but the people there know who's attacking Ukraine... it's Russia.
You'll never understand their point of view because you don't want to understand it. You'll keep blaming the US and praising Russia...