Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

Watching this situation unfold is especially poignant for me. I'm also being sued personally -- despite my acting within the confines of a corporation -- by a lawyer working on contingency. Suing someone personally is one of the least scrupulous things that these litigious assholes (lawyers like Carreon) do. They do it because it's unnerving. Everything you have, plus anything you do in the future is put on the table, and clawing it back off of the table is expensive and difficult. It's a shake down, plain and simple.

Reading all the comments on HN is such an emotional roller coaster for me. Prior to my current legal situation, I held many of the same view points that I read here; e.g., "A judge is going to throw this out of court! This is absurd!" I've heard this same sentiment over, and over, and over from friends and lawyers with regard to my case, but guess what? We're about 2.5 years in to litigation, and only a handful of allegations have been dismissed. Several personal allegations are still in the complaint (a complaint is a legal filing in civil cases), so I still face losing everything, depending on the outcome of a jury trial.

The reality is that judges frequently cannot "throw this out of court" because it's not within their power. Judges can only rule on the letter of the law, and civil law is written to give plaintiffs their day in court without much consideration for the accused (yes, I'm a bit biased here). It's disgusting to watch all this play out with other people involved, but it's gut wrenching when it's your $100k+ hard earned cash that has been spent fending off this type of bullshit.



Also being sued at the moment. I'm in the UK.

It's only pre-action at the moment, so there's a chance to still avoid full on action.

I'm well aware of how real and serious this is though. That it could bankrupt me if only the slightest thing goes wrong (for me).

This is when being a bootstrapped sole founder is no fun... there is no safety net, nothing to catch you. I can't even afford representation, so I'm representing myself (nightmare!). I'm spending more time reading and researching rather than coding.

What I've learned most of all, is that right and wrong don't really matter.

If it's going to go to court, if it involves a jury (the action I'm involved in definitely would)... then all bets are off.

And all the while life goes on hold and projects are put on pause.

From the outside everyone has their views and express them frequently. This is all detached and partisan though, the reality is that it really can bankrupt you, or takeaway your future, or drain your current assets and reserves. It demands being treated with respect even if you believe your position is sound and the case unfounded.

The hardest bit, as you rightly say, is the gut wrenching fear and stress. The way it affects your sleep. The way it's hard to work or relax because your thoughts are always on the legal action. It affects everything.


That sucks beyond belief. You often hear of litigation cases in the States but rarely hear UK cases being publicised.

You should come to the Hacker News London meet-up and let me buy you a pint or twelve.


You don't get a lawyer appointed when you can't afford one?


No.

Legal Aid is available for a very limited few (the most needy - which I actually would've met the criteria for being on a Ramen wage) and only in certain circumstances. The action against me includes a claim of defamation and this precludes Legal Aid.

Pro bono is available, but generally comes with many restrictions. Example: Must live within this catchment area, or be a woman victim of abuse, etc.

Where pro bono isn't restricted I've found that the lawyers are over-loaded and unable to take on any more. I've contacted a number of lawyers, and with the kindest apologies they've had to decline but then recommend someone else. The recommendations have formed a large circular loop, I've tried them all.

There are legal clinics. Attending a CAB (Citizens Advice Bureau) will generally see you referred to one. By and large these are operated by local small solicitor firms. Some legal clinics are much better funded and organised.

I attended SWLAC (South Westminster Legal Advice Clinic). Which is sole-funded by a barrister who wishes to remain anonymous. Largely these clinics deal with housing issues and fairly simplistic cases for the most vulnerable. So when I presented my case to them for advice (how to respond, interpreting the law and whether I'd got it right), they were quite challenged by it. For an hour on a Tuesday evening it's perhaps beyond their scope though they did their best.

Home insurance policies sometimes include Legal Defence cover. So I tried mine, which does have that cover. However I found that this cover is only available for a limited range of actions against you, and again does not cover anything that includes defamation.

The action against me purposefully conflates 2 things together... my role as the operator of a web site, and my role as a user of my own service. The claimant has attempted to argue that my use of my own service somehow removes the defences afforded to the operator of a site and would make me liable for the statements made by others on the site. The third party comments being the ones which are claimed to be defamatory.

There is more to it than this (but not much more), but as it may go to action I limit what I will say publicly.


That's a possibility for criminal trials only (in the US anyway).


I've seen a lot of comments online talk about how in the US people are very litigation-happy and the law enables it. Does your situation exist because you're located in the US or is your situation something that would happen anywhere in the world?


Most countries operate on a "loser pays" system. Whichever party loses has to pay the legal fees of the winning side.

This does a lot to discourage nuisance lawsuits.

In the US defendants generally can't recoup costs unless the claim is declared a "frivolous lawsuit".


While the US system may help nuisance lawsuits, it also allows the justified Davids to take on the Goliaths. Not sure how to stop the former while not stopping the latter.


Of course, it also allows the unjustified Goliaths to shake down the Davids with threats of bankruptcy.


I can't really say, because I lack sufficient knowledge of legal systems outside the US. I really only know what I know about our current system because of this lawsuit. I'd prefer not to know any of it! I just want to build great products.


Except for there is no law being broken here.

If drawing and distributing a picture of someone in a negative fashion were a punishable offense, every political cartoonist in America would have been put on the chopping block long ago.


That's rather the poster's point: even if the claims are demonstrably false, it can be an enormous burden and risk to actually demonstrate that.


You nailed it.

"Except for there is no law being broken here."

Sounds very black & white, doesn't it? The thing is, it doesn't matter. The actual determination of whether or not you've broken the law occurs very late in civil proceedings. A judge doesn't rule on whether or not you've broken the law, a jury does. The judge can only rule that the claim made against you does or doesn't past certain "tests". I can assure you that if a lawyer digs deep enough, he will find some circumstance under which these tests will pass and you will end up sued.


Oddly enough, Carreon is not suing over the picture itself--he is not suing for libel (i.e., a published defamation) or intentional infliction of emotional distress. He is merely claiming that the picture is a motivating factor in suing the Oatmeal guy.

Of course, Carreon is representing himself in the matter, and we all know what they say about a lawyer who has himself for a client...


Actually, I've never heard the saying about a lawyer being his own client so I'm somewhat curious. Is it like a Jack Thompson (not sure I spelled the Thompson right) thing?


The saying is "A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client".


Ah cool, thanks! hadn't heard that one before.


What a nightmare. How do small fries defend themselves? What happens if some loony decides to drag a very small business into a frivolous lawsuit? Sinking $100k into trying (and not even necessarily succeeding!) to defend against ridiculous claims is utterly outside of financial reality for many. But what's the alternative? Lose everything?

How do the little guys defend themselves against this garbage?


You get a lawyer.

If you're smart, you figure out how much legal help you can afford. There is some help available pro-bono, some through legal clinics.

It's helpful to figure out what you feel that you should do, and what you actually need to do. Getting the other side to spin its wheels can be helpful, though for a morally motivated pro se opponent, this can be challenging (by "morally motivated", I mean an opponent who's motivated by their own moral outrage, not necessarily acting morally), as they are essentially gifting themselves their own legal services. Being prepared can be helpful, but that can cost.

Often you don't need to do too much, sometimes that's not the case. And law can very much be a war of attrition.

There are some countermeasures which can be taken, generally launching a countersuit, making disclosure demands, etc., though these also have their own costs, and if your opponent doesn't have deep pockets, they're not particularly effective and/or interesting to your own legal counsel (who after all is looking for their billable hours or 30% contingency).

A very good rule of thumb is not to do business with assholes (or marry one), though this won't cover you in all cases (e.g.: Oatmeal vs. FunnyJunk).

There are also personal liability policies available, though they can be expensive. On the positive side, they make your problem your insurance company's problem, and they may be motivated to respond effectively to shut down your opponent. More often these or other legal insurance policies will cost a fair bit up-front and pay for a small fraction of legal costs.


If we weren't successful at our startup, I'm not sure how I'd pay to defend myself. The reality is that I probably would not have been able to, which would have resulted in a default judgement followed by bankruptcy.

I'm not from money. I'm the son of factory worker and a stay and home mom who cleaned houses to help pay the bills. This whole ordeal is utterly terrifying. I (along with my other partners) bootstrapped our company on money earned and saved by working our assess off. I personally contributed over $60,0000 to start our company, and that money came from nothing. I earned it fixing computers and working on our startup in-between customers and at night.

The thing that keeps me going is anger. That's the only emotion that trumps my fear. I'm outraged at the absurdity of the allegations levied against me.


One of the biggest misconceptions about the corporate form is that it fully shields investors, officers, or employees from liability for their actions. It does not.

Employees remain liable for their own actions, though the corporation may also be liable for its employees actions. (See "detour and frolic" doctrine.)

Officers can be held liable for their decisions in running the corporation. However, officers are usually indemnified (by the corporation) for lawsuits against them if they were properly acting in their capacity as officers.

Investors can be held personally liable for any of the corporation's liabilities if the corporation is "undercapitalized", i.e., it does not hold sufficient liquidable assets or insurance to cover its current predicted exposure to the sum of its liabilities. This usually describes most S-Corps and smaller C-Corps, especially solely-owned corporations.


In our case, the lawyer smoked up a "civil conspiracy" charge, which is a popular method of breaking through corporations. But yeah, same result, different plot.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: