Thank you for an interesting discussion. This is why I have this throwaway: to talk about things beyond the soundbites in the media without worrying about the downvoters.
To play devil's advocate: why doesn't the US stop now? There used to be a Ukraine entirely under Russia's control politically. Now there is a West Ukraine that is entirely dependent on the USA politically, has Black Sea access, has the oldest city in Russian history, has the oil and gas pipelines running through it (and so provides a way to continue to pressure Russia economically), and has a largely pro-West population. What is to be gained (other than pride) by forcing majority Russian-speaking lands that got accidentally attached to an entity named "Ukraine" to be part of this brave new world?
And before you go "but borders", let me point out that the reason behind many wars in Africa were borders that were arbitrarily drawn by the colonizers for their own convenience, and that often split up historically homogeneous tribes, or forced mortal enemies to be "the same country" (Harari has the details).
Finally, about the "who is going to try to overthrow Putin" point. It seems ridiculous now, but this is exactly what the media were selling back in 2022.
This is like saying -- we just have to accept that England belongs to Italy because after all London was once known as Londinium and was one of the most important cities in the Roman Empire.
Hey, Turkey bit off a chunk of Cyprus as late as 1974, and they are US allies. The US itself has presided over redrawing the borders in Serbia in the 90s (and somehow in that case the justification of "an ethnic minority wants a chunk of land" was totally legit).
It was communism that fostered this independence movement of the eastern states, and it was the USSR that drew the arbitrary line soon after the revolution.
> What is to be gained (other than pride) by forcing majority Russian-speaking lands that got accidentally attached to an entity named "Ukraine" to be part of this brave new world?
If this really was Russia’s intent they wouldn’t have tried to take the entire country at the outset. And if this is some kind of liberation project for those long suffering Russian speaking minorities, I’m certain those being bombed aren’t welcome of it. There’s no noble intentions behind the inception of this war, but let’s say there was, those intentions seem to have since been contradicted by the human cost which Russia’s leadership has proven insensitive to
Minorities? Reality is a stubborn thing. The numbers: Russians are 71% of the population of Sevastopol, 58% in Crimea, 39% in Donbas (but in Donbas, 97% of people who identified as Russian spoke Russian, whereas only 41% of those who identified as Ukrainian could actually speak Ukrainian). These are 2001 numbers from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine
And who, pray tell, is dropping bombs on these people? (and has been since 2014). Hint: it is not Russia. So they absolutely do welcome the protection and make up the majority of the fighting force currently advancing on West Ukraine. What is actually happening is in effect a civil war.
Edit: to the downvoters: which is it that you disagree with? That a chunk of a population larger than 50% is not a minority, or that people don't generally bomb themselves?
> Russians are 71% of the population of Sevastopol
Strawmanning again. That same census shows 17.3% of Ukraine identifies ethnically (or culturally) as Russian. But instead you want to split hairs.
> 58% in Crimea
Crimea is Russian in the pre-war border, and is irrelevant to this thread.
> whereas only 41% of those who identified as Ukrainian could actually speak Ukrainian
Kind of telling that non-Ukrainian speaking people are identifying as culturally as Ukrainian. It puts further doubt as to how much people inside the pre-war borders wanted to be 'liberated' by being usurped by Russia. Language != culture != nationality != support for annexation
All the same Sevastopol, which is the only majority Russian population in pre-war Ukraine that you mentioned, is not all of Ukraine. Very clearly Russia's play was for the whole country. The kind and noble angle you're presenting of Russia as liberator is either disingenuous, if you're trolling, or delusional, if you're being earnest.
> and make up the majority of the fighting force currently advancing on West Ukraine
Even if that's verifiable, there's no way of knowing how many are fighting by choice. Wouldn't be the first time Russians/USSR sent people to fight 'under pain of death'. And of course they aren't alone in this sort of conduct in war time.
> is dropping bombs on these people?
Both sides. Because of a war—I repeat once again—instigated by Russia. These populations wouldn't be caught in the crossfire of shifting battle fronts, if there was no... err.. battle.
So I'm done here. You aren't arguing in good faith, nor seem to yield to reason. Feel free to have the last reply.
Hey, I made you (and maybe a few other people) go look up those numbers to make sure this Russian troll isn't lying, and think about what they mean. That's already better than the usual "Putin evil, QED".
America has done a good job at nation building in the New Ukraine. They built a new country in Israel's image: ethnocentric and very militarized, with a strong warrior ethos. But you just can't resist adding a Gaza Strip, can you?
To play devil's advocate: why doesn't the US stop now? There used to be a Ukraine entirely under Russia's control politically. Now there is a West Ukraine that is entirely dependent on the USA politically, has Black Sea access, has the oldest city in Russian history, has the oil and gas pipelines running through it (and so provides a way to continue to pressure Russia economically), and has a largely pro-West population. What is to be gained (other than pride) by forcing majority Russian-speaking lands that got accidentally attached to an entity named "Ukraine" to be part of this brave new world?
And before you go "but borders", let me point out that the reason behind many wars in Africa were borders that were arbitrarily drawn by the colonizers for their own convenience, and that often split up historically homogeneous tribes, or forced mortal enemies to be "the same country" (Harari has the details).
Finally, about the "who is going to try to overthrow Putin" point. It seems ridiculous now, but this is exactly what the media were selling back in 2022.