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> Rob hates Bjarne Stroustrup

That sounds extreme. What did Bjarne do to him?



Bjarne took the wonderful thing that was C and made C++. Rob is not a fan of C++: he thinks the language evolved badly and added poor concepts from the beginning (IIRC iostreams and templates were two of the concepts), and it embedded a number of design decisions that led to extremely slow compiles and links (like, 45 minutes to link a Google binary). Ian Taylor even wrote a better linker (gold) for Google to deal with that.


Compare the designs of iostreams (Stroustrup) and the STL (Stepanov), conclusions left as an exercise for the reader.


when I discovered STLport around 2001, it was a real revelation and very convenient because I was finally able to compile the code my coworkers wrote on "real UNIX" with "real C++ compilers" (lol cfront) In researching my answer I came across http://www.stlport.org/resources/StepanovUSA.html# "putting it simply, STL is the result of a bacterial infection."


thank you for that link. what a diamond of interesting stuff!


Don't know about Rob Pike in particular but Ken Thompson, who probably had the same reasons for "hating" Stroustrup, had this to say about him (from Coders at Work):

Seibel: You were at AT&T with Bjarne Stroustrup. Were you involved at all in the development of C++?

Thompson: I'm gonna get in trouble.

Seibel: That's fine.

Thompson: I would try out the language as it was being developed and make comments on it. It was part of the work atmosphere there. And you'd write something and then the next day it wouldn't work because the language changed. It was very unstable for a very long period of time. At some point I said, no, no more.

In an interview I said exactly that, that I didn't use it just because it wouldn't stay still for two days in a row. When Stroustrup read the interview he came screaming into my room about how I was undermining him and what I said mattered and I said it was a bad language. I never said it was a bad language. On and on and on. Since then I kind of avoid that kind of stuff.

Seibel: Can you say now whether you think it's a good or bad language?

Thompson: It certainly has its good points. But by and large I think it's a bad language. It does a lot of things half well and it's just a garbage heap of ideas that are mutually exclusive. Everybody I know, whether it's personal or corporate, selects a subset and these subsets are different. So it's not a good language to transport an algorithm—to say, “I wrote it; here, take it.” It's way too big, way too complex. And it's obviously built by a committee.

Stroustrup campaigned for years and years and years, way beyond any sort of technical contributions he made to the language, to get it adopted and used. And he sort of ran all the standards committees with a whip and a chair. And he said “no” to no one. He put every feature in that language that ever existed. It wasn't cleanly designed—it was just the union of everything that came along. And I think it suffered drastically from that.

Seibel: Do you think that was just because he likes all ideas or was it a way to get the language adopted, by giving everyone what they wanted?

Thompson: I think it's more the latter than the former.


Interesting opinion, it certainly shows the broad mindset behind Golang (and its predecessors Alef and Limbo). Also let's face it, it really took Cyclone and Rust to prove that a broadly C++ish language could be made both safe for large-scale systems and developer-friendly. If your only point of reference is C++ itself, these remarks are not wrong per se.


But also see previous discussion of these remarks on HN:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27938122


99% of programmers, but especially the brilliant/well known ones, are insufferable egotists. Many cannot have a technical disagreement without despising the person they disagree with.

Professionalism and the tech industry are just starting to get acquainted.


Most professions, quietly, are currently like this. Architects and scientists and doctors and surgeons and lawyers all develop strong opinions about each other based on their positions.

For instance: ask a lawyer what they think about the overturning of Roe v Wade. Now ask them what they think about their colleagues who disagree. Don't forget to duck.

Which isn't to say that we wouldn't all be much better off with more distance between our opinions and our identities. But the thing you're looking for is a cultivated practice that is often not at odds with 'egotism' (what is that, precisely, anyway?) but _entailed by_ it: the not-wanting-to-be-the-kind-of-person-who-does-XYZ.

Not all vanities are risible.

What you're looking for is a long-cultivated, inward practice that can be supported or hindered by all the usual forces, local context (culture, practice, etc) chief among them.

Put another way: your claim isn't that most programmers are unprofessional. It's that they're _uncollegial_. And you're right. So are a lot of other contemporary professionals. It's a shouty era.


That kind of behaviour leads to a lot of valuable people abandoning workplaces because they can't stand the abusive atmosphere. In the end all that's left are the shouty arseholes and that doesn't do anyone any favors.


Correct. But my original post is not normative, but rather descriptive. Despite how things should be, this is how they are.

I've found that it's extraordinarily valuable to separate these two cognitive modes wherever possible.


So where do those valuable people end up then?


Well, a shockingly high percentage drop out of their profession, and get stuck somewhere doing something like CSR.



> 99% of programmers, […] are insufferable egotists.

As I read this while sipping my turmeric latte my monocle popped right out!


To paraphrase more generally;

99% of [people], but especially the brilliant/well known ones [in any domain], are insufferable egotists.

IMHO this is normal. When somebody puts in a lot of effort in mastering something they intrinsically know that they are better than most people in that something. As social animals, getting "noticed" is a form of being conferred "status" in the group. Thus you tend to "act out" to acknowledge/confirm that recognition. It is fine as long as it is within acceptable social bounds and not out of touch with reality.




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