I'm nearly desperately hoping you really mean to say, "effort is useless and wasteful if they fail *and then quit out of frustration*" , or something like that (and that would also be horrible advice, just not quite as insane as what you seem to be proposing. even quitting something out of frustration is a learning experience).

Teaching a child that failure is not an option is tantamount to psychological abuse. I shudder to imagine how petrified a child would be to take any steps toward anything at all with a deep fear of failure embedded.

I suppose everything you've ever done, ride a bike never fell (failed), played sports your team never lost (failed), played an instrument never had a bad performance? (failed) Basically any skill or achievement whatsoever requires a very deep and foundational tolerance for repeated, frequent failure in order to achieve. Not sure how that isn't obvious...

> I'm nearly desperately hoping you really mean to say, "effort is useless and wasteful if they fail and then quit out of frustration" , or something like that (and that would also be horrible advice, just not quite as insane as what you seem to be proposing. even quitting something out of frustration is a learning experience).

Sort of. Failire is failure. Period. You don't praise a child for failing. You metioned quitting but I didn't. You let them know they failed but then help them understand why and help them figure out what they can do about it. They are not a failure as a person because they failed at a task, failure and success does not define them, you should teach them that along with the lesson that failure must not be accepted without understanding the root cause and even then it is to be understood not praised.

> Teaching a child that failure is not an option is tantamount to psychological abuse. I shudder to imagine how petrified a child would be to take any steps toward anything at all with a deep fear of failure embedded

That's not what I said. Option or not, failure should not be praised,that's what I said. In fact, praising failure is fearing acknowledging what it really is. It's not failing that is terrible but acceptance of failure as a positive. Failure is essential to learn anything meaningful, but praising a child for failing means they won't progress past failing, you should teach them that while failure is terrible, it can be overcome and show them how to succeed and then earn praise. And if that isn't possible, work to understand that while they won't get praise for it, understanding why they can't succeed by learning from insurmountable failure will only make them better.

> whatsoever requires a very deep and foundational tolerance for repeated, frequent failure in order to achieve. Not sure how that isn't obvious...

That's very obvious, because you don't get a prize or reward for failing, that's why you keep failing until you succeed and then enjoy a well earned reward. Encouragement to keep failing until you succeed and praising for merely having effort but not succeeding are very different things.

I cant imagine you have kids. You can praise a child for failing as much as you want, they are never going to want to only fail. Our child has a deep fear of failure that has prevented them from moving forward with learning particular skills - to some extent it is definitely my own fault as a father as they were able to sense, no matter how much I tried to hide it, my inner dissatisfaction with some of this failure (VERY subtle, hidden, merely the lack of my positivity at their failure was all they needed to perceive to develop a pretty significant and demotivating fear of failure). So we are actually having to tell our child, "please go and try, and fail. we WANT you to fail. because if you aren't failing, you aren't even trying. So please feel free to FAIL as often as you need. the more you fail, the more you are trying". We are about as close to what you are describing as "rewarding for failure". To think that this means the kid is going to intentionally do poorly on things, well, that's not our kid and not any kid I've ever known, so what you are referring towards sounds like some kind of theoretical thought experiment with no basis in reality, and definitely something that would very easily lead kids like mine to be petrified of trying anything.

my personal experience as a parent directly matches the point of view of this article, which refers to research from child development experts.

> Our child has a deep fear of failure that has prevented them from moving forward with learning particular skills

What I am saying is actually in-line with your approach of encouraging them to overcome that fear. My disagreement is when you tell them failure is ok. You are confusing "try+fail" with "try". You praise their perseverance not their failure and perseverance isn't possible because you fear failure, it is possible because you believe in them and love them no matter what, their worth isn't tied to the outcome of their efforts, they persevere because they want to succeed and because failure sucks.

To put it differently, when you say "it's ok to fail" you want them to not feel bad about themselves when they fail. But the shortcoming there is you didn't tell them failure itself isn't good, it just doesn't define them and shouldn't be feared.

In the real world they will fail a lot and you won't be there to coddle them. The best you can do is teach them to not fear failure or be discouraged by it but to understand its cause and overcome it. To despise failure without making it your identity and celebrate and pursue success.

Last thing, if praising means showing love and affection then that is just messed up, that's a given! You should display affection to a child no matter what, not contingent on their success or failure. I am sure you agree with me on this, but also, that means reaffirming to them that their value and worth in life is also not contingent on their success. But nevertheless, success should be pursued and failure despised because failure in the long run means harming themselves or harming others one way or the other. Failing at math isn't a big deal but accepting failure there could mean a mindset that accepts failure in their jobs, marriage, friendships, business,etc... and expecting others to praise them when they fail and getting upset when that doesn't happen.

thanks for the conversation! Sorry I got a little huffy on this, I am glad for your patience in responding.

No need to be sorry, I am here for the discourse. For the record, i am just stating my view, I don't think I know better than you.

> I am not suggesting making them feel like losers when they fail. What should happen is you tell them: "You failed and it's all your fault, but so long as you learn from your failure and keep trying to succeed, you are on the right path."

Something as simple as undoing the participation trophy culture we've created would go a long way. There is a lot of utility in developing a healthy attitude toward failure. The problem is the pendulum swung way too hard from "win or come back on your shield" to "everyone is a winner in their own special way". Reinforcing either of these will lead to developmental problems. Though, IMO, at least the first one partially reinforces perseverance even in the face of failure.

> Praising a child is making them associate a good emotion with the thing they are praised for. Don't let that thing be failure. Even worse, don't let them believe they are fundamentally flawed and handicapped when that isn't true. When they see other kids work hard and succeed, the conclusion is effort is enough because they are incapable anyways.

I can add some more here: you can try very hard and fail. Failing is important because it builds grit. Grit builds the necessary framework to succeed even against odds stacked against you. If you simply make things easier, or reward someone for trying, it releases the happy chemicals that make it acceptable to not try harder. Part of the benefit of programs like ROTC, some sports, etc is that it can take someone who is an amorphous blob of suck and turn them into something they can be proud of. There's a lot to be said about that. Maybe there's some sort of relationship between the reduction in PE programs and the increase in this sort of "accepting failure" behavior.

You do not need to shark attack your child when they do poorly. However, you also should not praise them for being mediocre. Reinforce perseverance, as you suggest. It's your job to give your child the necessary framework to persist through struggle. Otherwise, as we have seen with many "adults", you end up with members of society who are fundamentally incapable of doing anything without constant praise. Casualties of the helicopter parenting generation.

> Something as simple as undoing the participation trophy culture we've created would go a long way.

My now-dated recollection is that most kids had no problem recognizing "participation" trophies as substandard and lacking prestige. Everybody--including the recipient--knew it wasn't a real win. They were something you sheepishly accepted hoping that you could minimize your time in the spotlight and that peers wouldn't somehow tease you for it.

So, hypothesis: Participation trophies exist because of by pressure from parents. Either as a way for teachers/kids to mollify parents who want to see their child "win", or else parents who think they can trick their child into motivation.

With that framing--cynical kids and mistaken adults--the "participation trophy culture" has wildly different problems and solutions.

I think it's a Chesterton's Fence thing -- nobody remembers why we give out participation trophies, so we continue giving them out. Their importance is overblown. Nobody is fooled.

I remember my daughter came home with a ribbon, and I asked her what it was for. She said: "Oh, it's just one of those ribbons that you get for participating."

We signed her up for kids' soccer. It was a league where they didn't keep score. Yet the kids knew exactly what the score was after each game, and who the best players were.

I remember as a kid that my motivation came from things where I could measure my own performance, such as getting through a math problem, or playing pieces on the cello, of escalating difficulty.

Mostly agree with what you said, looks like you also got downvotes though. The current sentiment is robbing kids of being able to accomplish things and be proud of themselves.

Like many things, extremes are easy and the lazy advocate for one extreme or the other but what is best is a healthy balance.

At the core I think a lot of adults grew up believing success or failure is their identity, it's who they are. Instead of overcoming that false belief, they twisted reality so that failure is as good as success. Their and their child's identity is still the outcome if their efforts except they dilluted reality and made a negative to be the equal of a positive.