> Istanbul is in the same league with London, Paris, Rome
London and Paris do not belong on that list. Rome is on another level. Paris and London are a few levels below somewhere. Heck I'd say istanbul is a level above rome since the turks added onto constantinople and added a richness and extra layer that rome never got. Not to mention that the eastern roman empire was far more impressive that than the western roman empire.
> and probably nothing else.
No, it is in the same league with many of the ancient cities in the region and elsewhere around the world. Cities tend to be built on top of each other not just today but throughout history.
> the islamist started protesting him for not respecting their values.
Good. Considering turkey isn't a western nation, why should their mayor peddle 'western values' as you stated. Last I checked, turkey is a muslim turkic nation and lets hope they hold onto their values.
Hey, it looks like your account has been taking HN into flamewars everywhere it shows up, like a pyromaniacal Johnny Appleseed* - can you please not do that? It should be obvious from https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html why that's not ok here.
* Believe it or not, I mean this affectionately - I've personally been enjoying your posts, I love a good moon landing hoax, and I don't think contrarianism is necessarily flamebait, though the two can be hard to distinguish. But we need you to use HN in the spirit of curious conversation, not derailing and dysregulation.
A certain dose of contrarianism is fine if it's part of a mix of using HN as intended. What's not fine is tossing molotov cocktails and leaving the site to suffer the consequences. If you want to post to HN, we need you to take care of the ecosystem the same way you would using a city park or a public campground.
Swing and a miss. Though I don't look down on the 'moon landing hoax' folks as many unfairly do, I actually believe the other extreme - we've been sending people to the moon nonstop since the 70s. Seems the likeliest of the 3 main scenarios. But ultimately, I'm was interested in a discussion as it one of the most fascinating topics of the modern era. Hope you aren't too disappointed.
Also, as you already know, I don't start flamebaits, I just participate in them. You should skip over me and climb up the comment tree to the source. Not telling you how to do your job but I believe that would be the most fruitful course of action. What do you think? Besides, I only post a comment or two for the edification of future readers. My intention certainly isn't to set the site on fire.
I'm glad you enjoy some of my comments and I hope you don't see me as the guy throwing molotovs, but the one pointing and shouting 'look! this guy is throwing molotov cocktails over there!'. A flamewar alarm bell if you will.
Actually I think you've been starting a large number of them—or at least significantly worsening.
"Start" is rather a dubious concept to begin with, as everyone always feels like the other person started it and did worse. This is one of the most reliable phenomena on HN (and no doubt with internet forums in general) - you can set your clock by it.
> Actually I think you've been starting a large number of them—or at least significantly worsening.
I can't think of any I started. Even this thread wasn't started by me. And my response wasn't that flamebaity. I was simply giving my honest opinion to actual flamebait.
> "Start" is rather a dubious concept to begin with, as everyone always feels like the other person started it.
I suppose. But in most cases, you can just climb the comment tree to find the root.
Also, I see tons of flamebait here. I ignore most of them. For example, this guy loves to flamebait.
Yet you haven't censured him. It's only when I respond and bring the flamebait to light, that you would recognize it. Maybe it's time for comments to have a report link where we can report flamebait? Or is flamebait allowed as long as no one takes the bait?
The simple reason is that we don't see everything that gets posted here. Actually we barely see 1% of what gets posted here. So if you see a post that ought to have been moderated but hasn't been, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. You can help by flagging it or emailing us at hn@ycombinator.com.
Other people breaking the rules doesn't make it ok for you to break them, though. That should go without saying.
Turkey is not a muslim turkic nation at all, Turkey is an ethnically diverse nation where almost all the population claims to be muslims but they all practice at different levels and the devote muslims are a small minority of the population. The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries, thus was influenced by western values for hundreds of years already. Then Atatürk happened, Turkey was formed as a nation with western ideals.
Also, an old hat factory which was used as a market is not something islamic. The mayor wasn't paddling any western values to islamists, the mayor was elected by the popular vote and he is still very popular. He does what the electorate demands and significant portion of the electorate demands art galleries.
I think you need to update your understanding of Turkey, it's very lacking and almost offensively shallow. Are you taking any red pills by any chance? Anyway, don't form your opinions from James Bond movies.
It's a predominantly islamic turkish speaking nation. You say 'almost all the population claims to be muslim' and say it's not a muslim nation?
> The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries
No. The ottoman empire was a legacy of the turkish nation. It's why the ottoman empire is also called the turkish empire. The nation predates the empire. Just like britain to british empire back to britain.
> The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries, thus was influenced by western values for hundreds of years already.
'Western values' is a post ww2 neo-colonial nonsense invented in the last few decades to justify our continuing invasion of the 3rd world. It hasn't existed for 'hundreds of years' just like 'the west' hasn't existed for hundreds of years. Also, the ottoman empire was a conquering empire that did more exporting of 'values' than importing of it from europe. For hundreds of years, the ottomans had the upper hand. It's only the weaken turkish nation that start adopting european science, technology, etc after their empire was destroyed by 'the west'.
> I think you need to update your understanding of Turkey,
No. I think I have a fairly strong grasp of turkish history. Thanks.
> it's very lacking and almost offensively shallow.
Says the person who thinks being being turkic or muslim is worse than being 'western'. I'm saying turkey should be proud of who they are. You are saying they should be embarrassed by who they are and try to mimic 'superior' westerners. Isn't that the gist?
I've nothing against turkish people or muslims. Though you certainly seem to have something against them.
You really need to stop speaking about stuff you don’t know. Opinions are fine but factual problems like chronology are not forgivable. You will be surprised that the westernization of the society was something that started as a political movement during the Ottoman empire and if you check the numbers, you will see that the empire was long gone before the World War II. That’s why I don’t think that you deserve any serious answer because you are off completely. It’s like you claiming that the French Revolution happened because the French listened too much Rolling Stones.
In case you decided to check out the history of Turkey, you also need to stop thinking about the Turkish society in American cultural war therms if you like to understand what is going on in Turkey.
Or maybe you are Turkish nationalist who believes in the mythology. Then yes, this would be a touchy subject to you because it is hurting your nationalist pride. You should hold nationalist pride parades.
Or even worse, are you believer of the AKP's alternative history where the Ottomans were the pinnacle of science&technology, Abdulhamit was a hero and Ataturk was a British spy? In that case, you should watch less series on the governments TV channels.
> > Turkey is not a muslim turkic nation at all
It's a predominantly islamic turkish speaking nation. You say 'almost all the population claims to be muslim' and say it's not a muslim nation?
Until recently, people used to bring up a widely known joke about “Turks being muslim one month of the year”. You knew Ramadan was starting when the daily papers switched from news stories containing sexy pictures to giveaways of holy texts.
It’s less so these days since many people expect to gain political (= economic) favors through superfluous displays of their muslim faith, usually broadcasted through Instagram.
You do have a good grasp of Turkish history, but explaining a Kemalist that he's not western is like talking to a wall. You can't talk sense into a poisoned mind that is in hate, denial and shame with his own history and past.
Turkey is one of the few countries in the world that has these pitiable individuals who despise their history and live in their own artificial "reality".
And the only answer they have is even more stupid arguments that directly connect to current day politics.
I'm not a Kemalist. However, after reading your analysis, I have come to my senses and now I am completely open to the notion of "Western values that emerged after WWII and were used as pretext for the invasion of the 3rd world", although they were a significant political topic during the final decades of the Ottoman Empire, which collapsed in WWI(WWI predates WWII by about 30 years). Now that I am enlightened, I can see how Ataturk embraced pro-Western values that emerged after 1945, despite his death in 1938. Who cares about context and chronology these days, right?
PS: By the way, I think I understand why you might be triggered. When you hear "Western values," you likely perceive something entirely different from what it means in Turkey. Just relax, the Western values I am referring to have nothing to do with the culture wars you are engaged in. In the context of the Ottoman Empire and Turkey, Western values pertain to scientific, cultural, and political progress that occurred in Europe during the decline of the Ottoman Empire. They are unrelated to whatever you may be imagining. It does not involve topics such as gay rights or the like, as the Ottomans were already quite tolerant in these matters, rendering them irrelevant in the context of the Ottomans and Turkey.
Or maybe you are not involved in the American culture wars, even then western values don't mean the thing you think it means in Turkey. In Turkey western values mean secular governance, secular judicial system, secular education, women's rights, families where one man is married to one woman and they have the same rights.
Thank you for your effort to explain yourself in spite of my negative comment, but I disagree with your assertion. Science isn't a Western construct; it's a universal human endeavor, informed by contributions from civilizations worldwide, not just the West. The narrative of "Westernization" in Turkey has often been a guise for imposing cultural and ideological shifts, mostly anti-Islam ones, that many – including myself – have found intrusive.
Your claim conflates "Western values" with scientific progress, and that's simply inaccurate. Let's disentangle scientific advancement from cultural hegemony. Science belongs to everyone, regardless of culture or religion. Generalizations like yours perpetuate harmful stereotypes, and we need to move beyond such outdated views.
Life would be so much easier if the anti-Islam rhetoric in Turkey were to be conducted straightforward and not in a hidden fashion with lies. If it was straightforward, the debate would have ended 100 years ago.
Sure, science is not a western construct but in the context of the final stages of the Ottoman Empire science over religion was considered a western value. This is not really a philosophical discussion, it's a practical implication of the decline of the empire and a political position in an attempt to reduce the islamic influence. This is a timeframe when people were burning observatories so that the "pervert scientists don't look under the skirt of the angels".
Atatürk was technically a dictator and a tyrant who executed quite a large number of islamic leaders in an attempt to curb the influence of religion. However, when contemporary Turks talk about being pro-Atatürk they mean the ideology of reducing the islamic influence on daily lives, education, judiciary etc. There are of course some people who would support extermination of religious people but those are just some crazies maybe you can find online and not a widespread position.
As you can see, the "Western values" in the context of Turkey are very specific set of ideals linked with the decline of the empire and formation of the republic and has nothing to do with the understanding of western values in other parts of the worlds or in philosophical sense. It's about practical implications on laws on marriage, inheritance, dress code, teaching the evolution Theory, funding of islamic education institutions etc. This is because Islam is not just something spiritual, it comes with instructions on governance -> the Sharia law.
The Turkish society in a way got disconnected from the core principles of Islam, and ignorance, along with superstitions that do not belong to the religion have taken the place of those core principles.
I understand that it wasn't working anymore, and I agree that a change was much needed but the way it was dealt with and what was put into its place are things I do not condone. To this day, Turkey's problems stem from that enforced, makeshift and conflicting foundation that are incompatible with the society.
> Science belongs to everyone, regardless of culture or religion
You might want to reassess where you stand if you truly believe that. All I see is the decline of the scientific organizations (including universities where people are granted PhDs based on their political connections), the explicit desire to separate girls from boys in schools, spending many times more on ministry of religion vs ministry of education, and pro-government scientists making ridiculous claims like “cellphone use at the time of Noah”[0].
You're unfortunately mixing up religion with politics. The current government is not the representative of Islam, on the contrary, they are far from it.
> Good. Considering turkey isn't a western nation...
You should read some Turkish history. After the fall of the Ottoman empire, and being divided up amongst various winners of WWI, the modern Turkey led by Ataturk reclaimed their lost territory and established a country based on overtly western principles. The reforms were deep, and sweeping: A new alphabet, to make Turkish more approachable to people used to Latin scripts. Separation of Church (or mosque, more accurately) and State, to the extent that wearing religious garb in public was outlawed. A new calendar (to match the West's). Women's rights (when that was progressive even for the west).
Imagine if George Washington had decided we'd be writing in Cyrillic and banned the display of crucifixes.
There have been growing pains, but dismissing Turkey as "not western" is an extremely politically charged statement.
I thought it was hilarious when George W. Bush used to say things like "We're bringing democracy to the Middle East" when for most of the 20th century Turkey was arguably more democratic (not to mention more secular) than the US.
> A new alphabet, to make Turkish more approachable to people used to Latin scripts.
If china adopts latin script does that make china a member of the West? Of course not. 'The West' is called that for a reason. It's predominantly western ( the west ) european nations and their genetic colonial descendents ( aka colonies that have predominantly european blood, power ). We could adopt chinese as our official language and the US would still be a western nation. Religion, script, separation of church and state has nothing to do with being part of the west.
> There have been growing pains, but dismissing Turkey as "not western" is an extremely politically charged statement.
No. Saying they are western is politically charged statement. Saying Turkey is not a western nation is a statement of fact. You act like 'the west' is some club with membership requirements. It's not. It's a legacy of european colonization and domination of the world. Something Turkey was a victim of, not part of.
The only reason some claim Turkey is part of the West is due to geopolitical posturing. Just like some claiming kazakhstan is part of europe.
Western is used to indicate values and there is a huge battle in Turkey over values. Secularism is one of them for example. The rest of this debate is semantics and national pride which has always struck me as the thing that causes every nation to act stupidly.
> Good. Considering turkey isn't a western nation, why should their mayor peddle 'western values' as you stated.
The mayor was peddling his own values. Why should the biggest radical assholes stop normal people from enjoying life anywhere? Whether islamists or christian evangelists, whether powerful enough to be able to kill people or not, they have no inherent entitlement.
The mayor was voted. Istanbul is mostly a “modern” muslim city. Which is to say that they are “muslims” but have different lifestyles than the other “muslims”.
London and Paris do not belong on that list. Rome is on another level. Paris and London are a few levels below somewhere. Heck I'd say istanbul is a level above rome since the turks added onto constantinople and added a richness and extra layer that rome never got. Not to mention that the eastern roman empire was far more impressive that than the western roman empire.
> and probably nothing else.
No, it is in the same league with many of the ancient cities in the region and elsewhere around the world. Cities tend to be built on top of each other not just today but throughout history.
> the islamist started protesting him for not respecting their values.
Good. Considering turkey isn't a western nation, why should their mayor peddle 'western values' as you stated. Last I checked, turkey is a muslim turkic nation and lets hope they hold onto their values.