Realized 10+ years ago that the only way I could have my kids grow up addiction-free was if they didn't have a smartphone/tablet and the only credible way I could ask this from them was if I also didn't have one.
In hindsight one of the best decisions of my life, sadly becoming more and more difficult to maintain as banking, public transportation, restaurants, and all other parts of life increasingly assume you carry a smartphone.
I’m rather disturbed by the discompassion society has towards people without smartphones. Be it menus at restaurants, banking apps (as you mention), or even map availability. We just assume everyone is connected all the time and that phones never break or have issues. I feel crazy, because my phone is constantly misbehaving.
Industrial society is coercive towards people that want to live more primitive life than one deem normal, that's essentially main thesis of anarcho-primitivists. Still, I don't think Luddites should ban for other people their technology. Why not ban electricity and cars too?
I'm not asking others to give up smartphones, just like I'm not asking others to give up stairs or cars. I only want the world to remain accessible to those without. Keep paper menus, build a ramp, and maintain cycling or public transit infrastructure.
I have an elderly relative with dementia who is unable to use a smartphone but the local grocery chains provide discounts for their weekly sales through smartphone based digital coupons. The open irritation and verbal abuse they get from cashiers who have to go through their alternate manual process for entering those digital coupon discounts is depressing.
I think this is overstated. I can't think of anything essential I cannot do without a smartphone or computer. You have to do it like it's 1985, which is foreign to the last generation or two, but it's still doable.
> I can't think of anything essential I cannot do without a smartphone or computer [..] it's still doable
Q: Have you never been to a restaurant which has done away with physical menus ("because Covid") and has a QR code which you're supposed to scan with your device?
> I’ve never been to one that wouldn’t dig up a physical menu on request.
Well, we have been to one (in Switzerland, as it happens) despite having been seated we got up and walked out once it was clear they expected us to get on the Internet to look at their menu. Their loss.
And then you ask the waiter what the price is, too? And then, when that seems a bit much, you ask him what else is good and what the price of that is? But if that doesn't strike your fancy, then you ask him what a third good thing is and how much it costs? Or do you always just eat the first thing anyone tells you to eat and then pay whatever they demand?
It's even worse in Asia, lots of things require an app tied to local phone number. It's at the point where you literally can't pay for things, call a cab, etc. as a tourist
Lots of respect for this - I’d guess your kids have it too. I often felt frustrated as a kid that adults took power and control over you and didn’t adhere to the same demands themselves.
"1996: The Israeli secret service finds that a cell phone can be used for things other than chatting with friends. It also makes a pretty nifty little bomb for disposing of an enemy, which is what happens to Yahya Ayyash on Jan. 5, 1996 when he tries talking on a booby-trapped phone " https://www.wired.com/2007/01/introducing-the-cell-phone-bom...
It's more akin to an adult lecturing you about the harms of junk food and controlling everything you eat while they themselves eat nothing but cheetos. It creates an adversarial relationship. You can rule as a tyrant, but it's not that pleasant for those that have to suffer through it. Obviously there are outlier exceptions (drinking, driving, very young children etc.) but even those are mostly for societal consequence reasons vs. individual capability.
Autonomy is really important - being empowered to actually make the good decision.
It's a matter of respect imo, adults often have too little of it. The best teachers I had, had a lot of it.
Kids observe, if you tell a kid to be generous but you behave selfishly the kid will assume you're full of shit and ignore what you're saying. The opposite is also true. Talk is cheap, what you actually do is what matters.
Nah, driving is also stressful and traffic is not fun.
I’ve seen recently a fair amount of car enthusiasts start buying into the walkable cities/public transit mantra, because a car enthusiast does not find city/suburban stop and go traffic to be the thing they’re enthusiastic about.
Right but that didn't change in last 20 years. Cities that suck driving (and walking) in now sucked as much and more 20 years ago. It's not that that changed how much people want to have driving license.
The amount of delay has increased over the last 20 years with a blip when everybody was locked down. Lane miles have not kept up with population growth or increasing sprawl, and investment in alternatives to traffic is quite poor.
My college student still won't take a cell phone. His uni gave him an iPad but he leaves it home most of the time. It can happen. And since he doesn't have a cellphone, I don't pick mine up so much when we're hanging out together. Win-win.
As a software eng something that bothers me is that every single employer that I have worked for has assumed that you would have no problem installing work-related software on your phone.
The most common offender is MFA related software.
I run GrapheneOS on my phone and don't have the Google Play stuff installed. And kind of the entire point of this is that I don't want to run proprietary, closed-source stuff on my phone at all. I also like not having a ton of bloatware/spyware installed by the manufacturer that I can't remove. So anyway, I usually protest and say that I can't, and that if I'm required to use a mobile device for work purposes then I need the company to provide me with one.
Often arrangements can be made by requesting a device that can double for other work related functions. For example, I currently have a work-issued iPad with Okta Verify installed on it that also let's me reach for Safari and do iOS specific dev & testing when needed.
But it does show the creep. Companies just assume that they can request that you use your mobile device for things that you otherwise wouldn't, and that you will have no problem complying. IMO saying either "I don't own a smartphone" or "I refuse to use my personal devices for work related purposes" should be a no-questions-asked accepted position. And while I've yet to be met with hostility by saying that, it is unfortunately such a minority position that it is almost always the first time they've heard an objection.
> IMO saying either "I don't own a smartphone" or "I refuse to use my personal devices for work related purposes" should be a no-questions-asked accepted position. And while I've yet to be met with hostility by saying that, it is unfortunately such a minority position that it is almost always the first time they've heard an objection.
Being at a more security-conscious (or paranoid) company can help in that case: they also don't want you to have work related things (other than MFA related software) on your personal devices, so the incentives align.
Definitely. It's just so much easier to have a policy of 'no company data on personal devices' and just hand out the devices people need for their work. Easy to explain to auditors too (think ISO 27001).
For devs and support this means a laptop, and for ops and management a smartphone is usually needed too.
The only reason I have a phone on me when I'm at the office is for school to reach me in case my kid is taken ill or something like that.
I would never put work stuff on my personal phone. Keep those lives separate. I seem to remember a story here a few years ago where someone's company got sued, and they demanded her personal phone (full of nudes and other personal info) for legal discovery because she used it for both personal and work stuff. Don't cross the streams, people!
If [company] needs me to do work on a phone, they need to provide the phone. Then they are welcome to remote-wipe it, install whatever Spyware and LockdownWare they need to, and have it back whenever they want it. I don't care.
I spent a few years as an okta engineer implementing MFA. Sometimes they buy you an MFA device, but most companies just degrade their security by letting you use phone mfa (even using your work desk phone for mfa).
This, of course, is not the fault/problem of the people who refuse to install mfa on their personal device. Good for them.
I agree with where you're coming from, but half the problem is caused by this needless bundling, putting everything on a single device. A cheap used tablet is like $100. Get one just for work junk. Use it when you need it, otherwise forget about it. Having to spend that money yourself to help corporate check some compliance box is certainly over the line of what should be, but depending on how much you'd otherwise have to argue it's perhaps a better use of your time.
In general I find segmenting things across devices a great way of mitigating overstimulation hell. Like most people I've got some trash toilet game I've become habituated to, but I only do so on a particular device that otherwise stays home. If I'm out and about and have to wait for a few minutes, there's zero temptation to pull it out and check in. Also it's simply unable to surveil my movements, as opposed to say trusting the OS permission system plus having to work around its shortcomings with something like an always-on VPN.
Installing an MFA token in your phone is just using a convenient place to keep tokens, not an imposition on you.
Objecting to being asked to keep MFA tokens on your phone is like saying 'where am I supposed to keep this keycard to get into the building? In my own personal WALLET?'
2FA tokens these days broadly follow TOTP and HOTP standards, meaning you can use any token manager you like to handle them. The iOS password manager even has inbuilt 2FA token support now. You shouldn’t have to install software just for managing corporate 2FA tokens any more than you need to buy a proprietary keyring to hold your desk drawer key.
> This question is fascinating to me! What form of work requires using a smart phone?
A common one I've seen around is food delivery workers.
Another common one, at least around here, is taxis (we used to call them "radio-taxi" since you called a taxi by dialing to a central and talking with a dispatcher, who talked to the drivers through radio; it's been a while since the bulky radios with long external whip antennas have been replaced with a smartphone app).
Another one I've occasionally seen is power company repair workers, who seemed to use their smartphones both to communicate with their central and to fill service order forms. The same for communication network repair workers (though now I'm thinking, how do the cell phone network repair workers do it? I'm guessing they must have a traditional handheld radio as a fallback).
Wow, I always knew HN was mainly used by programmers and this thread seems to add further anecdotal evidence for it.
For me, as an agency founder, most of my work is communicating with my team and clients. With clients: sharing progress updates, discussing possible new directions or new features, and replying to any questions they have. With team: exploring the solution space for new features, asking for updates, and managing and overseeing work done by developers on a day to day or week to week basis.
My team works remotely on hours of their choosing and their working times span ~14h of a day. Much of the work for me is intermittent and is discontinuous.
I do around ~50-60% of such work using my phone. I find it more convenient and faster than having to go to my workstation.
Most FAANG-level software engineering jobs will require being on-call with something like PagerDuty [0]. Though I guess you could get by with using just text message notifications and not necessarily the app.
In the US that is. Over here on the old continent they thankfully can't pull that stuff because most countries have banned work calls outside of regular work hours.
Definitely not legal in many of the large economies any more. France, Spain, Italy, Portual, Belgium and Ireland have have all adopted so called "Right to disconnect" laws. In Germany it's not categorically outlawed but employees have no obligation to respond off-hours.
To some degree you can be contactable when traveling or otherwise away from your desk with a feature phone but only partially. You’d certainly be that quirky person with the odd anti-smartphone habit.
As someone said, MFA related stuff mostly. I also requested a smart phone from work so I could attend meetings while I'm driving to places and so I have a hotspot if I'm in the pager rotation, which I get paid for.
I have most of my best ideas, both work and personal, while running, so I like having a phone on me in order to reference stuff and take good notes before the thought is lost in the ether.
Any development work where uptime is important? Especially if SLA is involved. If your product has issues, the client bothers management and management will certainly want to bother you.
Not sure which typical workplaces require smartphone use (I'm sure there are many), but indeed, in my case, I work either at the computer or in front of people or walking up and down while thinking :)
You can have TOTP as a browser extension. Not saying you should, just that there is a possibility. A bonus is easier backup of secrets so loosing your phone does not lock you out.
I haven't yet encountered situations with mandatory 2FA, but indeed, this is the kind of thing I expect to become widespread, making it more and more difficult to those without a smartphone.
Company TFA is less of a problem than other things as they’ll use a token rather than SMS and you can always use a hardware token. I have a soft token on my phone but it’s not required.
In hindsight one of the best decisions of my life, sadly becoming more and more difficult to maintain as banking, public transportation, restaurants, and all other parts of life increasingly assume you carry a smartphone.