"Terrified" is a bit much, I think most people just want to get along and are happy to use whatever term is acceptable to those it describes. Our understanding of what those terms are might shift over time, and it may get muddied by well-intentioned people trying a bit hard to avoid offence (or by people clumsily trying to police it) but it's generally progressing fine. And I think as long as you're compassionate, willing to listen and learn it's hard to really fuck up to the point that you're "cancelled" (to the extent that actually exists) unless you're deliberately looking to cause trouble.
>"Terrified" is a bit much, I think most people just want to get along and are happy to use whatever term is acceptable to those it describes.
I'm supposing some people might be more anxious about it than others, and in different contexts. If you see a lot of stuff in the news about people saying things you might have said and getting hounded for it that might make you super anxious - you don't know the etiquette anymore!!
I mean people get anxious about getting robbed when they read a robbery happened, why shouldn't they get anxious about having their life destroyed for something they said if they read someone got their life destroyed in that way.
Yeah that's something where you'd hope people could step back and realise that the news is often sensationalised and seeks out salacious stories of people being "cancelled" because they get people riled up and engaged. I still think that if you're open-minded, conscientious and not looking for conflict you can navigate a conversation with even the most extremely over-sensitive of people without having any issues.
I think you can too, when you’re in person and in a calm situation. And when there’s trust between you. And when you have some skills at conflict resolution.
I’m comparatively good at this stuff, and even I find it very tiring even in best case scenarios. I dated someone who was very woke about a decade ago. She and I eventually decided to just never talk about politics. She would get really worked up over small disagreements that avoiding the subject entirely was the only strategy we found to keep the peace. And that was despite agreeing on about 95% of our political opinions.
I agree it’s usually fine in practice, but I know plenty of people who still find the whole thing quite anxiety inducing.
Having your language policed isn’t an enjoyable experience. Doubly so when it feels counterproductive - like avoiding the word “blind” with blind people who might quite like the term.
I'd say more generally "Being embarrassed isn't an enjoyable experience" - it's embarrassing to find out you're using an offensive word or to feel like you're out of touch, but what's important is what you do with those feelings, how you react.
If someone politely reminds you that some word is inflammatory and not well-liked among a given community it describes, then you can either take it politely or blow up about how the world is going crazy and complain about stuff being "woke". That said if someone goes thermonuclear on you because you used "deaf" instead of "hearing-impaired", yeah that person is clearly a dick, doesn't deserve your time of day (note: just re-purposing the example from earlier, obviously this is not something anyone in this thread has done)
It'd be good to be able to convey that to someone who does feel like there is a "language police" or that it is anxiety-inducing to engage with younger people. I should note though that when I've encountered this - among people being racist or homophobic - people tend to dig in, become stubborn and rant about "woke culture" or genders so clearly the problem cuts both ways (and I hope you can see I'm clearly not the type to fly off the handle at someone for something innocuous).
Is the word “client” offensive? Stanford apparently thinks so. Is “blind” offensive to blind people? Is “mother” offensive? Apparently some people take offence at this stuff. Should I respect them for it? Should I feel embarrassed for being “out of touch” because I don’t side with the censors here?
Being told not to use these terms is language policing. It’s especially odious when it comes from people taking offence on behalf of others. My experience having my language policed isn’t as simple as feeling embarrassed. I would angry at people who demand I stop calling my mother my mother. So would she.
And you don’t merely “feel like” something is anxiety inducing. That’s not how anxiety works. People can and will feel anxiety for all sorts of reasons that might seem ridiculous to you or I. I find awkward scenes in movies anxiety inducing. I don’t just think they’re anxiety inducing - I feel actual anxiety while watching.
I’m happy for you that you never feel anxious about the idea of getting yelled at for your word choices. I wish everyone had that privilege. But we don’t live in that world. Lots of people - rightly or wrongly - feel terrorised by the idea of using the wrong words and getting yelled at for it. And I think that sucks for them! The experience you have - of people getting defensive about this stuff - where do you think that reaction comes from? I think it’s a social immune reaction to being told what to say. People hate that.
> Is the word “client” offensive? Stanford apparently thinks so
Has someone singled you out and told you that you're being offensive for using the word "client"? I suspect not, I think you've overreacted to this a bit. The document you linked has this in its third paragraph:
> The purpose of this website is to educate people about the possible impact of the words we use. We are not attempting to assign levels of harm to the terms on this site. We also are not attempting to address all informal uses of language.
So they're stating ahead of time they're not trying to get rid of this and create a form of "newspeak" or whatever, they're outlining some words some people use that have a variety of different implications and suggesting some alternatives to them in some contexts. The word "client" is under their "Imprecise" section, they suggest "user" instead. It is worth noting that I have personally encountered its ambiguity - a “client” in my current role can variously mean:
- a user or a person
- one of the accounts of that user/person
- a hospital or healthcare provider
- the application calling an API (“client” in OpenID Connect)
- a package/lib we published to call an API
We can either live with the idea that “client” is always going to need clarification, or start using the terms Person, Account, Organization, Client and API Client (respectively).
> Is “blind” offensive to blind people? Is “mother” offensive?
Have you been confronted for saying "blind" or "mother"? This sounds very hypothetical. If you want to have my feelings on “blind” check out what I said about “deaf” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35007350 - two of the words interpreted as euphemisms were actually broader than strictly "deaf", and one sounded comical.
> Should I feel embarrassed for being “out of touch” because I don’t side with the censors here?
You've mixed things up a bit here, and I hope it was by accident so I'll clarify. This "embarrassed" was me contextualising what people feel in the situation where, for example, Andy uses an antiquated and offensive term to refer to an ethnic minority without realising it, then Bob corrects them. In your terms Bob has "policed" Andy, and it's not nice to feel that. I'm saying that what's actually happening here is Andy is embarrassed or ashamed, which is a thing that can happen easily (they could've called Andy "Albert" or farted or something else) and that's why they feel bad. What happens next is on Andy - they could do what they do in all other embarrassing situations and say "ah sorry I didn't realise" or they could fly off the handle and dig their heels in. There's obviously a limit to how forgiving people are, I don't think Andy would get off lightly for using the n-word, for example.
So I can't think why you should feel embarrassed about the existence of this document, but I also can't think why you'd get so upset about it if it isn't affecting how you talk or causing problems in your life.
> I would angry at people who demand I stop calling my mother my mother
Who is demanding that? Is someone in your life telling you to do this? If they are - tell them to fuck off, that's none of their business. If not ... why are you inventing a situation where someone tells you not to call your mother "mother"?
With the situations you've brought up, it sounds like you're more annoyed about the idea of being told what to say, than anyone actually doing it to you. That sounds anxiety-inducing but I don't know what I can suggest that would help. For what it's worth if you're a famous Gen Z streamer then yeah you're going to be held to some pretty high standards language-wise, and people will outright be looking to cause drama (and tbh they often court it and play it up themselves but that's another matter). The rest of us aren't held to that standard, and normally people don't enter a conversation looking to destroy their conversation partner, they usually go in with best intentions and if you meet them at that level and act respectfully there's not a great deal that can go wrong. When that's not the case (in a small amount of situations) and you're dealing with an oddball, you can excuse yourself or you can nod along and then later text your partner or best friend about the weirdo you spoke to :) It's very unlikely they would be in a position to cause you any trouble in either case.
> Have you been confronted for saying "blind" or "mother"? This sounds very hypothetical.
I brought up blind people and mothers to reference other parts of this thread. Seems like the thread has gotten a lot longer since I read it, and I suppose its context can't be assumed now. Blind people[1], Mothers:
> For example, it seems like we can't say "mother" anymore in medical settings. For my partner's entire pregnancy, our providers only referred to "birthing people" because of some tiny number of trans men that exist and also want to give birth. I support trans people living however they want, but my mother was a mother, goddammit, not a "birthing person", and I don't appreciate anyone implying that this word and identity are somehow offensive. At work, a "women in engineering" group got renamed to something bland like "gender minorities in tech".
Imagine what its like as an employee at a hospital with that policy. You might personally disagree with it, but what are you going to do? Have a friendly chat with HR about it? (And risk your career in the process?) Or get in line, but feel torn up inside about it?
> for example, Andy uses an antiquated and offensive term to refer to an ethnic minority without realising it, then Bob corrects them. In your terms Bob has "policed" Andy
Thats not what comes to mind when I think about andy having his words policed. I think about things like, people getting viciously attacked on social media for not being woke enough (like what has apparently happened to knitters on instagram[2], and to the young adult fiction community). Or people being told at your workplace that all mention of the word "mother" is banned, that the word is only spoken by antisocial people and the implication hanging that anyone who uses that term will be fired.
Its this "my way or banishment" attitude that makes people feel afraid and angry. Yes; this also happens in 1-on-1 conversations. But as you say, its rarer there. Its so much worse in larger groups like communities and workplaces.
When Stanford publishes a list of "harmful language", or Google adds an AI-powered "inclusive language detector" to google docs[3], they're not having a one-on-one conversation - with all the subtly that comes along with that. They're a powerful institution enforcing their politics by telling their employees what words and ideas will put your job at risk.
If you disagree with the opinions of people on instagram, or twitter, or your employer, there's no subtly. And usually no room for differences of opinion. People either get in line, or they risk getting ostracized from their community and fired from their job. Google has made their stance on this quite clear. Employees either toe the company line re: politics, or they get fired. The same is happening in the academy, and plenty of other places. The intention might be good, but there's a lot of diversity of opinion that is being suppressed as a result.
Waaaait a minute you’re making some enormous leaps here. You’ve read a comment where someone says “it seems like we can't say "mother" anymore…” and have then projected it into this scenario where the word “mother” is banned as hospital policy, and where nurses live in fear of not speaking it lest they be fired.
You’ve described your anxiety about using the wrong language when talking to people … and you’re referring to some third-hand accounts of random online interactions on social media. I think you might need to step back from the computer for a bit and use less social media, because this anxiety does seem a bit self-inflicted. You’re describing reading about a handful of things that happened to other people, have assumed they are bigger and more universal than they are and as a result it’s caused you to be anxious about speaking to people in real life.
I think if you take my original advice - speak to some people in good faith, don’t set out to trigger or “own” them - you’ll find that your assumptions about how much of a minefield these interactions can be are completely unfounded.
In particular if you take the time to listen to some of the perspectives of people who are the subject of some of these changes in language (for example, trans people) you’ll find that they’re just regular people like you or I, who just want to live with a bit of dignity and get treated with a normal amount of respect. They often have to deal with a lot of very explicit hatred, so they tend to be quite forgiving if you mistakenly flub a pronoun, or if you accidentally use their pre-transition name out of habit since you knew them for years prior. You still need to try, it might not come easily at first but it’ll be fine if you enter into a conversation with the best intentions.
How do you think a policy like that is implemented at a hospital? I can tell you what happens - HR pulls everyone into a compulsory meeting (or series of meetings). No trans people are present. The old language (“mother”) is named as trans phobic and new language (“birth parent”) is presented as company policy. The implication - explicit or implicit - is that anyone using the old language is a transphobe and will be sacked. Are there any questions? Do you want to get in line or risk being fired for transphobia? There are no questions.
At universities they’re getting people to write “diversity and inclusion statements”. To get a job you have to write an essay talking about how hiring you will further the goals of diversity - at least how the woke mob has defined it. There is no polite conversation. Disagreeing with the policy is not a winning move if you value your career.
Online it’s obviously a bloodbath. A Finnish traditional knitting magazine was torn apart by social media for being “nazis”. Apparently they didn’t have any black people interested in traditional Finnish knit ware. The magazine immediately disbanded.
Do you think polite conversations would help in any of these situations? No. The politics of all this are not up for debate. Look at your own stance in this thread - you assume anyone who isn’t on board with the new language is transphobic. This is what I’m afraid of!
I’ve spoken to my trans friends about this and had lovely conversations. They aren’t a club who speaks with one mind. One of my trans friends hates the woke movement. She feels singled out and awkward whenever people go around and ask pronouns. She wishes people assumed her gender. In her words: “I wish my gender could go back to being the least interesting thing about me”. She hates that non-trans people mis represent her views. Another trans friend goes by they/it and loves the new world the woke movement is creating.
But it’s honestly not my trans friends I’m afraid of. It’s corporate HR. It’s university admissions. It’s crazy people on Twitter.
And I’m not alone in being afraid of all this. Read the other comments in this thread. I’ve got dozens of upvotes in the comment when I mentioned being terrified. The fear is real. Half of US college students say they are afraid to sometimes speak their mind in class[1]. Fighting political correctness is the new rallying cry for the right, because feeling oppressed by this stuff is so common.
I’m not afraid because I’m transphobic. (I’m not, and I adore my trans friends). I’m afraid because some people with your politics go around insisting anyone with a nuanced view is a monster and needs to be attacked and “educated” until they get in line. It’s awful.
There's honestly too much to go into here. I feel like you're just fucking around with me if I'm honest, if that's true then congratulations I've spent about ~30 mins typing out and reading comments :-/
> some people with your politics go around insisting anyone with a nuanced view is a monster
People with these politics aren't calling me, with my nuanced views, a monster. If you're really afraid, maybe your views just aren't that nuanced?
Look I commented because I thought you seemed like a nervous wreck, completely afraid to engage with my generation, and I figured I could reassure you a bit. If you really have a couple of trans friends, well maybe I misjudged, maybe you're not that insulated and in need of assistance after all!
Thanks for the conversation. I’m not a nervous wreck, thanks in large part to not being on Twitter. Sorry if I came across that way.
And yeah, I’ve had a lot of conversations about this stuff. Thanks for trying to help. But It’s usually impossible to logic someone out of a feeling.
To close, I think there’s more than enough reasons for feeling afraid of the woke mob if you look for them. Whether or not that’s a good idea? Hard to say.
Terrified might be a bit strong but fearful or afraid isn't.
I am definitely afraid of stepping on a verbal landmine in a work context. This is my meal ticket, and what's keeping my family housed. There is a very real fear or stepping on toes, even if accidental, and that translates to behaviors.
I'm also afraid of sticking my neck out in heated situations. I've had to push back managers, PMs, and other coworkers in ways that will often make them angry. I've seen the race card get played against other managers, so I have to CYA on any vaguely negative interaction.
It sounds like you've got a pretty stressful workplace overall to be honest. I don't exactly want to be having debates about the big social issues of today with my colleagues, but on the other hand I don't think anyone should feel like they are walking on eggshells.
