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A Solar Trade War Could Put Us All in the Dark (technologyreview.com)
59 points by minecraftman on Dec 26, 2011 | hide | past | favorite | 32 comments



> On October 18, the U.S. government was asked to impose tariffs on imports of Chinese solar cells and modules, based on the argument that China-based producers have been heavily subsidized and are selling solar products at unfairly low prices.

So the Chinese government wants to sell us renewable energy infrastructure below cost. Sounds great to me.


Exactly, perhaps a little bit of history, Bastiat's essay:

A PETITION From the Manufacturers of Candles, Tapers, Lanterns, sticks, Street Lamps, Snuffers, and Extinguishers, and from Producers of Tallow, Oil, Resin, Alcohol, and Generally of Everything Connected with Lighting.

http://bastiat.org/en/petition.html


Great read. There is a subtle but important difference here in that it's an artificial advantage (government subsidies), and potentially a short-term one, versus that permanent natural foreign production advantage proposed in the article. The oranges in that story would always be half the price. There's no fundamental reason that these will stay under cost, and indeed, it seems unlikely that they would.

In the long run, it may be cheaper or more beneficial to develop a domestic industry in this, with all of the benefits that that comes with, even if the upfront price is higher. It doesn't seem like a good idea to let foreign goods be subsidized to the level where it will kill your domestic industries and reduce your country's ability to operate independently, especially if that's one of the goals of the subsidies.


> So the Chinese government wants to sell us renewable energy infrastructure below cost. Sounds great to me.

Will they agree to keep selling at that price for as long as we want to buy, or will they only do it until they drive competition out of business, and then jack the prices up, counting on high barriers of entry from keeping new competition out?


They did this with rare earth metals. The price rose 10x this year, and America put the mine in San Bernadino back into production pretty quickly. Wasn't the end of the world.


They did this with EVERYTHING. The costs of manufacturing are roughly 1/3rd labor, 1/3rd raw materials, and 1/3rd power. China subsidizes power and raw materials (through various means). If it weren't for that, Chinese stuff would be about 70% the cost of US stuff (assuming 10% the wages, equal productivity, and the same material and labor costs).

Subsidizing stationary inputs (like roads, power, and pollution sinks) or stuff that's expensive to move (steel, coal, trained workers) is a way to force a country to industrialize. Subsidizing easily exported inputs (like rare earths) is less effective, as it just ends up in your competitors' final products.


The mine in San Bernadino isn't back in production. You're talking about Molycorp, and their Mountain Pass mine. It's scheduled for the end of next year (http://www.molycorp.com/AboutUs/ProjectPhoenix.aspx). And I believe that's with extensive federal loans or loan guarantees.


The Mountain Pass mine is in San Bernadino county. Am I missing something?


No, I meant that Mountain Pass isn't going to be back in production until the end of next year. I should've said it more clearly.


That's somewhat true. Prices rose tremendously across all rare earth metals, and they fallen back notably for some light metals.[1][2] That said, they remain high for heavy rare earth elements (HREEs), where China still dominates production.[3] (Mountain Pass is predominately a light rare earth element-producing mine).

Bottom line: The rare earth story only partially supports your point. That said, the lead time for a new mine is 5+ years, and solar manufacturing lead times may be much lower (and thus barriers to entry also lower).

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/business/global/prices-of-... [2] http://www.metal-pages.com/metalprices/cerium/ [3] http://www.metal-pages.com/metalprices/terbium/


The barriers of entry do not currently prevent new firms from entering the market. Why do you believe they will do so in the future?

Also, can you find any examples where the strategy you describe has actually worked?


In this day and age of "just in time", scaling up production should not be an issue. They can't give them away forever, and if they do, it's a great value for the consumer. Protectionism is toxic, and is not the answer.


No, if anything, this day and age of just in time, scaling up production is harder if you suddenly cannot use your suppliers. Manufacturing, especially on such a large scale is heavily reliant on gained experience and what basically accounts to institutional knowledge/memory. The reason why some of the remaining American manufacturing remains profitable is because their combination of automation, and institutional knowledge. One is easy to replicate/replace, the other is much harder.


please point to an actual historical example of this. the frictional costs never wind up being anywhere near as high as the pro-regulation crowd harp.


I'm think that's a rhetorical question right?

If not, the latter one, since that's how this stuff has always worked. Just smart business for them.


Neighboring countries want to send the USA tons and tons of labor below (current) cost, as well. They've put a ton of barriers (both literal and figurative) in place to prevent this, too.


Doesn't this only happen for a short period then once there is no more competition prices will rise again? What do economists say about the practice of selling below market costs?


When China raises their prices, will US firms have the PV tech and technicians to meet demand? The ultimate IP coup would be if China patented their PV technology and production processes.


The Japanese government did this (selling below cost) with consumer electronics, steel and some other industries, with the end result being that no television sets are made in the US anymore.


But they were an industry of falling prices, the incumbents who failed to innovate were probably going to fail anyway. http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2011/12/22/the-amazing-po...


Was that the result, or merely something which happened afterwards for other reasons?


many solar markets around the world have reached grid parity

I'm not one who watches alternative energy technolgies closely, but this statement screams out for further substantiation. Examples. Which markets? At least citations of reputable reporting on this. Because it strikes me as patently unbelievable.


Wikipedia has a few citations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_parity#Solar_power

The key detail is that the cost per watt for PV on the open market dropped 40% in 2011.


This struck me as a fallacy as well. Those subsidies won't be around forever, and last I heard, the PV cells aren't cost effective without them.


It would help if you continue the very sentence:

After decades of global competition and collaboration, many solar markets around the world have reached grid parity—the point at which generating solar electricity, without subsidies, costs less than the electricity purchased from the grid.

No?


Fair enough. The way it's worded really seems to target the public sector though. Maybe I'm just way out of touch, but has the cost of PV really come down far enough that it's cheaper for the average homeowner to generate solar power than to buy power from the grid? And in which countries is that true? Or, is this statement targeted at large-scall installations only (power plants, warehouses, etc)?


Yeah, I don't know about that. I assume it's the large-scale pricing myself..


It's my understanding that the cost to create a new power plant powered by solar cells is cheaper than the cost to build a new plant powered by coal or oil.


I'd love to see some reports to back up that claim. Not that I'm rallying against solar power or anything, I'm just skeptical. I personally haven't seen anything about huge breakthroughs in solar power generation... not that I've been looking though.


The story, as told to me by a guy that is very connected in the US solar industry: 1) SolarWorld, a German company, filed a complaint with the US government. 2) A bureaucrat in DC thought it would be a good idea to take the complaint seriously. 3) Now growth in the solar industry, in both China and the US, may be hurt due to the possible trade war.

Some background: http://www.electroiq.com/articles/pvw/2011/10/solarworld-fil...

It seems, if you are for free trade, this is a bad thing.


GE has said that the price of Solar Panels is _almost_ to the point at which they are prepared to enter the market aggressively [1] - and when they do, they will drive the price _down_ so as to increase market adoption to the point where very large manufacturing facilities make sense.

This crying over the increase in the performance/price curve seems somewhat ironic - if the Chinese Government has been actually providing subsidies to it's domestic manufacturers, it will have to really step up and start subsidizing american consumers as the prices drop further.

Some things make sense to manufacture in other countries.

This is good for American Consumers, and, as a result of Solar Energy Adoption (which is a hairs breadth of being less expensive than _non_ adjusted carbon files per kilowatt hour, just wait until we see a carbon tax) great for the environment.

[1] http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20125872-54/ge-solar-panel...


USA could invest in 3D printing technology, then the people could make their own made in china stuff.




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