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Thank you so much for your efforts!

I have steadily become convinced that we should make a multi-billion year backup of all of humanity's knowledge. All of it.

Something that,

  - is resilient (can survive a nuclear explosion)

  - requires no power

  - doesn't require software to read/reboot from

  - (theoretically) lasts for at least 1 billion years
Copying from the Long Now Foundation's projects, I think we can achieve these goals by miniaturizing pages and etching them on some metallic surface (a titanium alloy), depositing a layer of some resilient transparent material onto this surface, and creating multiple copies.

A few copies for Earth. 2 or 3 for the Moon. And a few sent out of the solar system on probes like Voyager.

Voyager itself is a great example of what we could achieve. The golden records were made out of stable, inert materials and Voyager’s trajectory doesn’t intersect with any known object for billions of years. The records themselves will be intact for at least two billion years according to one estimate. They are, for all intents and purposes, functionally immortal parcels of information.

https://www.space.com/predicting-voyager-golden-records-dist...

Some simple math, if the pages could fit inside of a 10mm x 10mm square, then for a plate that's about the size of an average coffee table at 2' x 4', we could fit 7,432 pages.

Assuming that we have 50 billion pages, we'd need about 6.7 million such plates to fit all of human knowledge, so far.

It sounds crazy, but assuming we could get net costs per plate down to $500, each copy would be about $35M. Or, ~0.14% of an Uber. Alternatively, 0.002% of the F-35 program.

That's doable!

-

6.7 million plates will probably weigh a lot. So off-world copies might need to use an alternative encoding scheme.

Another problem is likely to be organization of the plates/copies. The hardest part might be putting it all together in a way that can be trivially decoded by human descendants, even if they don't speak our language or share our subspecies.

(apologies for any typos, it's very late at my end)



I think what you consider the hardest part, putting it together so that someone who does not speak any human language today deciphers it, is actually one of the least of your problems. Unless you deliberately encrypt the information (which you wouldn’t), I have a feeling that even Wikipedia alone might be sufficient for a motivated civilization to figure it out. Linguists and archeologists in our time have to do with far, far less, and they have reasonable success. Add in a few things like dictionaries, textbook, novels, and I have little doubt that it’s a big obstacle.

Rather I think you vastly underestimate what a billion years can do. The earth itself, and all that was on it, was formed a “few” billion years ago.

Our rivers alone have carved entire valleys into mountain ranges in much, much less time. I doubt a titanium alloy and some unspecified sort of super epoxy stand a chance.

And constant custody with regular restoration cannot be guaranteed for billions of years either.

That’s a massive problem for one plate (and its many copies) alone, more so for millions of unique plates…

The Long Now Foundation is only shooting for 10000 years, as far as I know.


Off world would help, no atmosphere on the moon for instance makes for less deterioration, and a cave system would shield it from radiation.

On earth clay tablets have done a great job : we have tablets 6000 years old, so we know that works. That’s 60% of 10k already. Titanium seems expensive and might be melted down in time of need, like bronze has been often in the past. Clay tablets survived partly because it’s a ‘worthless’ material.


You need to bury it on the moon. There is a reason the moon is full of holes.


> On earth clay tablets have done a great job

The ones that survived


Yeah, but they didn’t even try preserving it! Lots were found in average storerooms and so on.


When there's a lot of things to start with, there's bound to be a lot of things to survive by chance even without preserving. A lot of the stuff that survived was accidentally preserved by nature.


You could say that, but I would point out to its resilience and suitability as a medium for long term information containment. Literally thousands upon thousands have been found. Imagine if one were to try make it last longer :)


With some irony, tablets subjected to the usual destroyer of documents, fire, survive even better as they're vitrified.


It is 60% of 10k, and 0.0006% of a billion years.


But can you engrave them with the precision required for miniaturization?


As for normal backups, maybe it is better to have a chain of medium term solutions for storage rather than aiming for a single long term one.


A multi-billion year backup is probably pointless.

The earth will be uninhabitable in that time frame due to changes in the atmosphere and beyond that the sun itself will complete it's lifecycle.

I know there's a big fad to "just believe" in a SF future that spans space and time but physical realities in this area are pretty rough.

I think the best thing people could do is realise that, eventually, everything ends and believing otherwise when it comes to the human race is much like believing in an afterlife.


Our survival is not the point. It is an act of hope and the manifestation of our goodwill to the rest of the universe. There is nothing more valuable that we can offer to the Universe than our culture, history, knowledge, and the Earth's biological data.

Imagine if you were an alien species who somehow comes across this capsule hundreds of millions or billions of years from now. It's proof of sentient life elsewhere! But then you date the U-238 and realize that they're probably all dead...

But, they've left all of their civilization, culture, heritage, and knowledge behind. And you get to experience that, even recreate a tiny simulacrum of their world. And it gives you something, it's a tangible form of communication and cooperation across aeons.

-

In the short term, the backup is probably useful to have. Imagine if a collection is lost to fire or some other catastrophe, and one of the closer ones could be used to bring it back. Case in point, the fire at Notre-Dame. In 2015, Dr. Andrew Tallon, an art historian, painstakingly scanned all of Notre Dame, https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2019/04/16/we-have-b...

I think it's important to be honest. Would you have flagged his work as pointless in 2015? After all, the Cathedral has stood for centuries, been photographed so many times, what's the point of a 3D scan?

After 2019's fire, those scans became important (unsure to what degree) to the restoration effort. At some level, by capturing and preserving history, Andrew Tallon helped save history. And now it becomes a part of the story.

That's the goal. To engage in an act of optimism for the betterment of us and all of humanity.


An alien civilization knowing us just by an archived version of Horizon Worlds feels like a fate worse than death.


Doomer fatalism is nearly as dumb as sci-fi optimism. It's 100% physically plausible, using technology we have today, to make humanity star-faring. The costs would be exorbitant at this point, but within the reach of human productive capacity (assuming we're willing to ditch the partial nuclear test ban).


The costs are not the problem.

We can barely get to the Moon and have no realistic prospect of making a self-sustaining Mars colony any time soon.

How is it credible to claim we can build starships that can cross lightyears without technological or sociopolitical problems?

The engines - which we're nowhere close to creating - are the easy part.


Getting to the moon only takes another JFK. We have the tech, we have the people, all we lack is the budget and a 5-10 year deadline. Also, another hard part is getting there safely enough. A 5% chance of dying out there is probably not acceptable nowadays. We probably need to go below 0.1% to attempt it again, and that's not trivial, especially with the possibility of solar flares beyond the magnetic protection of the Earth.

The real question is, is it worth making it a priority?


> is it worth making it a priority

It will follow by itself once space mining kicks off.


I was responding to "physical realities in this area are pretty rough" - obviously there are other blockers


> It's 100% physically plausible, using technology we have today, to make humanity star-faring.

That kind of claim needs an actual source, because it's not.

The distances are so many orders of magnitude too high for any of today's technologies, making this a pure daydream.

The best we could plausibly do is travel within Sol, and that's not starfaring.

It would have to be a multi generational journey in which any refueling/restocking is impossible and any slip up would cause a full wipeout.

Starfaring is far beyond us... and that's unlikely to ever change for humans with a biological body.



> The earth will be uninhabitable in that time frame due to changes in the atmosphere and beyond that the sun itself will complete its lifecycle.

At that point someone can just put it on a thumb drive and take it with.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that people ultimately inhabit a spaceship that wanders the universe looking for a new home.


"It's not beyond the realm of possibility that people ultimately inhabit a spaceship that wanders the universe looking for a new home."

We are doing that right now.


> 6.7 million plates will probably weigh a lot. So off-world copies might need to use an alternative encoding scheme.

For the Moon and Mars, carve them into stone there. You'll have to defend against meteor strikes so they'll be carved and stored deep underground. No idea about seismic activity on those bodies.

For outer space, maybe it's pointless because finding, boarding, unloading an interstellar probe and sending the cargo back home is not easy unless you have very advanced interstellar ships. An orbit around the sun could be an easier place to spot. The Library of Ceres or the Library of the Troians?


> they'll be carved and stored deep underground.

But of course you need some marker then on the ground so people know where to look for it later if they want to read the data. Maybe some artwork? A giant monolith perhaps?


A giant pyramid, they can last thousands of years even in our aggressive environment, much more in the weak Martian weather.


I love that. Should we dig in the Cydonia region on Mars? :)

Perhaps at the D&M pyramid?

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/pia04745-the-cydonia-dm-pyra...


I'd start with the pyramid, but there's a risk of trying to dig up a regular mountain, which would be very wasteful. Maybe we should dig instead the Face of Mars after all, but who knows what other alien faces are there that we can't recognize? Let's dig everywhere!


Not sure if serious or sarcasm.


What about that seemed sarcastic? It read as a practical solution to an unlikely problem.

Orbiting the sun seems like a pretty stellar solution to the whole "keep something close and visible but safe without maintenance" problem.

Plus, think of how exciting it would be for a future civilization to discover that an object orbiting the sun was not a lump of rock!


6.5 million plates at $500 each is 3 billion, not 35 million.

Just don't make them look gold (even if they're not solid gold), or they'll get looted and melted.

Though it would be fun if a murderous warlord ended up with a gotten crown made of the Wikipedia article for toilet paper orientation. [1]

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper_orientation


Oops! I did a rough calc in my head but forgot to add in the two zeros. But it's still fairly "cheap." 0.14 Ubers (14%), or 0.002 Pentagon Monetary Black Holes (0.2% of the F-35 program)


i think it's a brave assumption that gold will forever be as valuable as now.


It’s not that it would need to be as valuable forever but rather the opposite: that it be forever not looted.


Gold is a really useful material


Indeed, it is a reasonable assumption that it will get more valuable over time, as it is a scarce resource.


Gold is extremely common in the solar system.

In the next few hundred years it's pretty likely that gold price will be marginal, as asteroid miners looking for less useless materials such as nickel, cobalt and platinum mine an excess.

So no, unless for some hidden reason asteroid mining doesn't work out, which is pretty unlikely given how badly the developed world needs that material.


Gold is quite useful as a corrosion-resistant conductor. If it wasn’t, cheaper metals would be used in its place in electronics.


This thread reminds me of a Twilight Zone episode.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rip_Van_Winkle_Caper


But wouldn't use such miners make the extraction cost higher?


Instead of metal plates with a clear coat, maybe laser etching diamonds? a 5cm square of diamond can store 25 exabytes of data. They will weight less then metal as well. https://newatlas.com/electronics/2-inch-diamond-wafers-quant...


Wouldn't that fail this requirement though?

> The hardest part might be putting it all together in a way that can be trivially decoded by human descendants, even if they don't speak our language or share our subspecies.


Diamond can burn.

Though other crystals should be highly stable. Quartz seems geologically and chemically stable, plain old glass ain't bad. Something reasonably cheap is probably preferable, both from the cost basis (an expensive-to-create archive is a challenge) and the repurposing challenge (a diamond-etched bibliographic archive might have other appeals to those who chance across it).

Even parchment proved sufficiently valuable that works were often repurposed (and lost) through palimpsests.


Holy shit, this reminds me of the Jedi / Sith holocrons.


> a 5cm square of diamond can store 25 exabytes of data

isn't the same idea viable if applied to silicon crystals (which we already grow lots of)?


https://archmission.org is doing something like this. It's a super cool project, and they work with the Long Now Foundation, the Internet Archive, etc.


Just use this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5D_optical_data_storage

5d is a bit dramatic but it is a femtosecond laser writing of quartz crystal that should, in theory, be stable for billions of years and can hold hundreds of terabytes.

Seems to be just what is needed.


Sadly it appears to be early-stage R&D vaporware.


It was early stage R&D vaproware in 2013 when I read about it the first time.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/data-saved-quartz...


That’s a shame. I saw it earlier on Reddit and read the wikipedia article, seemed promising.


Microsoft's "Project Silica" is in early production.


Why not encode them microscopically, using some kind of easily decipherable code?

The main issue would be loss of language. You’d end up with a gigantic Rosetta Stone of indecipherable gibberish.

Better would be to convert all literature into hieroglyphics, or graphic novels (or both), and then etch them microscopically.


This size will have microscopic features! There is probably a balance between ease of scanning/technological sophistication required to see the pages, cost of etching, and the number of plates overall.

The Long Now Foundation has extensively studied the language loss problem and arrived at a fairly elegant set of solutions.

https://longnow.org/ideas/02022/01/20/linguistic-data-in-the...


Encode in dna and do roaches with random pages on their back.


1 billion years is a long time. would a metallic alloy last a billion years? maybe we are better carving it into stone


You'd want to select it special to be non-reactive, and even then limit or eliminate exposure to UV, oxygen, and temperature changes. Stone is also a changing material on this time scale and I think storage preference would largely be the same. I think one of the more salient differences is feature size; easier to make very small yet still legible images in metal than in stone.


To be useful after such a long period of time, we'd also need to include materials on learning the languages.


> I have steadily become convinced that we should make a multi-billion year backup of all of humanity's knowledge. All of it.

And I'm over here hoping humanity extinguishes itself ASAP so the rest of life can thrive before we kill it all.

Intelligent life seems highly overrated.




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