Both of these examples are enterprises, not something a private citizen does. I would also hesitate to say that you can become a felon overnight with either of these scenarios (remember all of the rights lost, including gun ownership, by being labeled a felon). And a majority of businesses shield themselves such that if they do violate the law it’s the business itself penalized, not the workers. In the case of gun ownership it’s the individual being penalized.
To make your example equivalent, imagine if the food truck or some piece of equipment in that truck was suddenly made illegal. And if you’re in possession of it you are now a felon. Yesterday (literally) it was legal and you were not given advanced notice anymore than waking up this morning and receiving notice.
If heavy machinery and food industries operated this way there would be much less competition and likely no food trucks at all
Food trucks are under the purview of fda and the local and state authorities of the jurisdiction they do business in. Health and fire inspectors do audit these locations or trucks in the event of an entirely self contained food truck. These businesses are still subject to the whims of these oversight bodies and may be arbitrarily shut down overnight.
Your comparison is factually incorrect on every count. I do hope that you’re just ignorant of the mind boggling amount of legislation your average food truck is subject to.
To bring this full circle, gun owners are de facto legally assumed to be reasonable and responsible owners that abide the law and diligently pay attention to the changes of laws. If you become a felon “overnight” because of an illegal weapon; well that’s on you. Being responsible sucks because it demands humility and accountability. If you’re neither capable of admitting your mistakes nor following the glacial pace of state/federal law making then you’ve no business owning tools capable of killing masses of people in seconds from hundreds of yards away. Great power, great responsibility. Lately some politicians have become tunnel visioned on the power part, I’d like to remind you that in order to maintain a lawful society we must be responsible lest the unwashed masses take Justice for themselves in whatever capacity they can. This is the compromise of a civilized society, you would be wise to learn more about why things are they way they are before you write up factually incorrect justification for your grievances.
> Your comparison is factually incorrect on every count.
Please explain how, exactly.
> I do hope that you’re just ignorant of the mind boggling amount of legislation your average food truck is subject to.
Operating one on the side with some in-laws, I'm quite well aware of the legislation. Yet I'm still not aware of a single instance where a food truck operator became a felon overnight because they had a "high capacity grill". In what cases can a food truck operator become a felon when their activities that made them a felon were legal the literal day before?
> If you become a felon “overnight” because of an illegal weapon
Why is overnight in quotes? Do you not believe I was using the correct definition of literally?
> Being responsible sucks because it demands humility and accountability.
I think you'll find that a great majority of us are responsible, that's why we know about these laws and the ATF. I can't say the same for those that are pro gun control, they tend to be very ill informed on the subject and assume others are. Nobody is saying they shouldn't be responsible, we're saying they shouldn't be allowed to arbitrarily remove rights from people because of who's politically in control of the ATF. If you take a step back and remove personal bias, every sane person in the US would agree.
> If you’re neither capable of admitting your mistakes nor following the glacial pace of state/federal law making then you’ve no business owning tools capable of killing masses of people in seconds from hundreds of yards away. Great power, great responsibility. Lately some politicians have become tunnel visioned on the power part, I’d like to remind you that in order to maintain a lawful society we must be responsible lest the unwashed masses take Justice for themselves in whatever capacity they can. This is the compromise of a civilized society, you would be wise to learn more about why things are they way they are before you write up factually incorrect justification for your grievances.
You're clearly going on some rant here that I'm not sure where you're basing this argument from and it really shows your bias (which has no place on a forum of engineers and other technical people). The point being if this were laws being passed by congress, with months of advanced notice, nobody would be complaining. The ATF can release a rule right now stating owning an AR-15 with a pistol grip is a felony, active at midnight and you best hope you pay attention to the few hours notice you've been given.
> The ATF can release a rule right now stating owning an AR-15 with a pistol grip is a felony, active at midnight and you best hope you pay attention to the few hours notice you've been given.
ATF rules get published in the Code of Federal Regulations
and later, upon finalization, published again in the same place.
I don't mean to defend the scope of ATF's (or other agencies') power or discretion, which is quite broad, but the ambush rule with just a few hours' notice is pretty implausible under the APA. Normally the APA calls for at least 30 days' notice, and months are more typical.
There is an emergency rulemaking exception under the APA for "good-cause", but this is comparatively rarely used and (like other aspects of a rule) may be reviewed by the courts. ATF knows that it has a lot of critics who are likely to sue to challenge its rulemakings, and has often taken a considerable amount of time to make new rules even when there was a lot of political pressure brought to bear in favor of expanding regulations.
It's unfortunate that you might have to go to court to vindicate your rights under the APA, but that's almost equally unfortunately true of almost anything improper that any part of government might do to you. If a police officer decided to randomly seize your weapons because he just thought they looked scary and you oughtn't own something so dangerous-looking, you would also need to go to court to establish that the police office wasn't entitled to do that. Or if, like in the Hitchhiker's Guide, a local government authority decided to demolish your house without proper notice, you'd probably also have to go through the courts to get a remedy.
To add, I’m down to talk to about governmental overreach if we can rationally prioritize issues. Gp seems to prioritize absolutist gun rights. I’m keen to consider extrajudicial murder, extrajudicial armed robbery by police, the separation of church and state, or the Supreme courts usurpation by the federalist society - before I think it’s worth discussing the loosening of gun rights in this country that has more gun involved MCEs (military conflicts excluded) than every other country combined.
As I’ve strayed a bit from the topic I’ll bring my point back by saying; sure there’s issues worth complaining about in almost every us regulatory process, but let’s prioritize by how many lives we can improve instead of lesser reasons that are used as a fundraising platform by the minority political party without regard for the trail of destruction their reckless policies engender.
I'm sure I'm quite a bit more sympathetic to the other poster's views than you are, but I found the idea of the ATF surprising people by banning something overnight to be implausible in terms of the way the U.S. administrative system works.
I worked on an issue a few years ago where the FCC was attempting to completely ban something, and it took them somewhere around a year to complete the process of actually banning it, despite having been very clear on their goal. If they'd simply said that people shouldn't have this, full stop, right away, well, I imagine the D.C. Circuit would have been even more upset with them than it actually was. :-)
We’re agreed on U.S. courts, lawmakers, and regulatory bodies inability to effectively respond to emergent issues on a human time scale. I don’t expect anyone to agree with me on much, but if everyone could agree with that we need strong regulation to reduce gun violence, well thatwould be swell. I’ll even hold my tongue and not gloat when the statistics begin the inevitable sharp drop in MCEs.
If your interest in regulatory hell take a look at the fdas campaign against vaping. Then compare it to the nhs to see what a semi functional system can accomplish.
> we need strong regulation to reduce gun violence
With it already being illegal for certain criminals to own firearms, what regulation short of a total ban would help? This is where the "add more laws" logic fails. The thinking is that adding more laws will keep criminals hands off of guns. Criminals by definition ignore laws. Guns can be made via a 3d printer now. Ammunition used to be made (reloaded) by campfires. It's impossible in these days to keep guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them. If you have a CNC machine you can make your own AR-15.
Instead the solution is quite the opposite. More guns. You don't have to carry one yourself, just don't stop the rest of us. And by law if someone is carrying a concealed weapon near you and your life is in danger, they must protect it. We end up with peer to peer police. Nobody has a problem adding classroom work onto concealed carry permits to ensure carriers know the laws. Nobody has a problem with carriers also being required to qualify to ensure they can accurately shoot their weapon.
As far as school shootings, that solution is quite easy and technical. AI powered cameras in classrooms and hallways that alert if someone not in faculty or the student body steps on the grounds. Alert for gun shaped objects. Ballistic class on the interior and exterior windows with doors that partition the hallway when closed and locked to block in any assailants.
The guns rights group has many solutions to the problems, but the gun control group doesn't want them. Gun control groups have created a situation where it's easier for criminals to get guns and use them than it is for law abiding citizens.
The solution is recognizing that the 2a side is belligerent regarding the consequences of easy access to cheap weapons. Once we accept that all we need to do stateside is adopt sensible legislation that demonstrably works in countries without a belligerent group incapable of intelligent debate. I’m not going to engage with you on a slippery slope argument.
Your solution is naive, unsupported by research, reasonably hypothesized by people far more intelligent and accomplished than either of us, to be a failure on arrival, and conveniently requires no requires no acceptance of responsibility in the current horrific state of affairs nor does it requires a change in mind on anything.
More guns = more suicides and accidents. You should already know this.
the nra/federalist society, and similar organizations have been using their lackey’s to prevent progress on gun control for decades. Mitch McConnell has publicly taken pride in his ability to prevent anything from getting done regarding anything.
> The solution is recognizing that the 2a side is belligerent regarding the consequences of easy access to cheap weapons
So now only wealthy people can exercise a right?
> Once we accept that all we need to do stateside is adopt sensible legislation that demonstrably works in countries without a belligerent group incapable of intelligent debate.
Again, what legislation. I want specific laws you think will work.
> I’m not going to engage with you on a slippery slope argument.
It honestly sounds like you have no argument, just that you don't like guns and want them gone.
> More guns = more suicides and accidents. You should already know this.
I don't count suicides as deaths. This is used by the pro gun control groups to artificially inflate the numbers. Suicidal people will use other means if you take the guns away. And yes of course, the increased use of any object results in increased accidents with those objects. That's why some parents teach their kids gun safety early (I was handed a shotgun at age 8) and we develop proper procedures for handling weapons (Such as always visual and physically ensure the chamber is clear even if you "know" it's unloaded).
> the nra/federalist society, and similar organizations have been using their lackey’s to prevent progress on gun control for decades. Mitch McConnell has publicly taken pride in his ability to prevent anything from getting done regarding anything.
Do you think that perhaps the NRA is just representing the people that belong to its organization? Or said another way, if the NRA had nobody to represent would they exist?
While it may be hard for you to understand my position and the position of others like me, it's not the NRA fighting. It's me, other's like me. And we certainly aren't giving up anytime soon.
You’ve made liberal use of fallacious argument, taken my arguments exceptionally uncharitably, and have conveniently ignored many other of my arguments while projecting your own shortcomings onto me. You should read the site guidelines. At this point it is clear that you are arguing in bad faith and it is not worth the effort of even reading your replies as you have made it abundantly clear that you have no interest in engaging in a rational discussion. Instead it is obvious that your goal is to spread to your widely debunked talking points; truth, evidence, merits, respect be dammed.
What have I ignored and what have I taken uncharitably? I’m asking for specific laws that you would enact that would help the situation. You have not provided any and you’re now attempting to derail this conversation.
Every scenario you’ve presented Ive disproven. Remember this was started when it was said that food truck operators can become felons.
Further what site guidelines have I violated?
I want specific laws you’d enact to resolve the issues as you see them. Can you provide them or not?
> Nobody has a problem adding classroom work onto concealed carry permits to ensure carriers know the laws. Nobody has a problem with carriers also being required to qualify to ensure they can accurately shoot their weapon.
This is untrue. Half the country has constitutional carry established. I carry every day and do not have a permit. I get myself to the range frequently enough to be proficient. I do not need the government to "allow" me to practice my rights.
> This is untrue. Half the country has constitutional carry established. I carry every day and do not have a permit. I get myself to the range frequently enough to be proficient. I do not need the government to "allow" me to practice my rights.
There is a difference in practicing one's rights and endangering others. We require the same of our police officers. While I'm a fan of constitutional carry, I have no problem taking 8 hours of classroom courses and qualifying with my carry pistols.
> but let’s prioritize by how many lives we can improve instead of lesser reasons that are used as a fundraising platform by the minority political party without regard for the trail of destruction their reckless policies engender
What other enumerated rights shall we remove under the guise of saving lives? Should we remove access to vehicles? Alcohol? Shall we enact a speech control board that if you violate it you lose your enumerated rights? This would open the door for the same abuse gun owners receive for exercising their right.
You're right, I'm a gun rights absolutist. I will not settle for the removal of this right nor the government making it difficult to exercise. They don't do this with any other right why this one? Can other rights not be just as dangerous? (See Democrats stating they needed to misinformation due to the damage caused to democracy).
The entire argument used by belligerent guns right absolutists (belligerency follows absolutist views like butter on bread) is based on a maliciously broad understanding of the second amendment. Note that no one talks about militias, just the right for every angry terrified fan of tucker carlsons propaganda (legally not News remember) to go to their local gun shop and buy dozens of semi automatic long guns with 10+ round clips and have a few pallets of ammo delivered to their house with merely a signature and maybe a waiting period. But no, it’s too hard to buy a gun./s have you tried the dark web, other Americans have figured out how to carry straw purchases en masse.
Wait a second, who doesn’t? In fact on this board they have been discussed more than a few time, including by myself.
> just the right for every angry terrified fan of tucker carlsons propaganda (legally not News remember) to go to their local gun shop and buy dozens of semi automatic long guns with 10+ round clips and have a few pallets of ammo delivered to their house with merely a signature and maybe a waiting period.
This is a biased rant again. None of what you said sounds dangerous to me. The problem is now with what law abiding citizens buy and own, they will never use the “dozens of long guns” kill innocent people. Why are you conflating criminals and law abiding citizens?
Can you also tell me, using your example, why any waiting period past the first one does anything? If someone already owns a gun, why are they being subjected to yet another waiting period? The entire point of a waiting period was to cool off and not do something stupid with your new purchase. But if the person already has a gun on hand then what is the point of it?
> ATF rules get published in the Code of Federal Regulations
> and are subject to the Administrative Procedure Act
> and therefore are announced ahead of time in Notices of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRMs) published in the Federal Registe
Only if there is no exception that allows them to wave the comment period. The key being "emergency actions".
> There is an emergency rulemaking exception under the APA for "good-cause", but this is comparatively rarely used
Bingo. Now imagine living in fear because of a particular government body's overreach. You can clearly see that this can and will be abused based on political bent. The exceptions are the problem. Remove them. Require all rules have a 180 day waiting period.
I left the exercise of relating my arguments to your statements to you and am doing the same here.
Are you aware of the origins of the fda? Chefs and pharmacists got rightfully chilled by the dozens of bills it took to fully reign in their murderous proclivities.
The only reasons that we’re having this discussion is because of elementary (bad faith) disagreements over the semantic interpretation of laws that predate world changing technologies our great grand parents took for granted in their childhood.
Overnight is in quotes because your use of it is needlessly inflammatory. One felony conviction equates a lifetime felon. Your usage of overnight is superfluous and only acts as a conservative dog whistle in your comments.
Who is us, precisely? Names, addresses, and gun permit numbers please. I like to stay as far away from anti-regulation outspoken second amendment types as possible. They’re too shooty and screamy. That said, what are you and your “responsible” gun owners doing to control the irresponsible ones? If responsible people set the rules we wouldn’t have drunk driving laws, or urine screens at work, or even currency. The nra has only supported gun control legislation when its toothless or black people are effectively asserting the same rights. If not The nra being the de facto national steering body and figure head for the “responsible gun owner” cohort then who? I’ve not heard of any organization with a fraction the membership of that side of the gun control war.
Funny how you cast the people with your beliefs in a broad positive brush and those who consider your beliefs the direct cause of countless deaths in a broad negative brush. Some might consider that an argument in bad faith. The anarchist and socialist gun owners I know all know to code switch when talking to people proudly exclaiming the same beliefs as you.
Your appeal to authority is dehumanizing, fallacious, and thoroughly refuted by a sibling comment to your post. It’s up to you recognize that your beliefs create a perverse incentive to engage in illegal vigilantism and thus in order to protect democracy and secure the most rights for the most people we must continue to aggressively regulate firearms until their misuse is inline with peer countries. All other domestic attempts to curtail wanton gun violence and vigilantism have failed to have substantial. The time has passed for 2a absolutists to be taken rationally as we’re witnessing countless preventable murders of children go unaddressed.
Drop the bad faith flame bait and transparent insults. You’re sidestepping my points and demanding I engage you on your terms. It’s uncouth and ironically hypocritical. This is no rant, but I can understand why someone of your beliefs may feel that way. I am a recovered 1-2a absolutist libertarian myself, and I cannot help but full body cringe at the ridiculous justifications and mental gymnastics I used to justify my hatred, prejudices, and wave away the inevitable externalities in such a society that is so improbable it cannot even exist in fiction.
Flame bait? Libertarianism is a stereotypical collegiate belief system that collapses explosively and hilariously whenever it’s been attempted. Keep your guns, I’m fine with civilian gun ownership. I’m not fine with school shootings. First world countries manage responsible gun ownership without school shootings. Let’s get there and then quibble about these things.
To make your example equivalent, imagine if the food truck or some piece of equipment in that truck was suddenly made illegal. And if you’re in possession of it you are now a felon. Yesterday (literally) it was legal and you were not given advanced notice anymore than waking up this morning and receiving notice.
If heavy machinery and food industries operated this way there would be much less competition and likely no food trucks at all