While I’m usually a great proponent of moral relativism, the whole point of Abrahamic religion is that there is a book that expresses an absolute moral standard.
Considering the manner of Jesus’s own death I think we can safely state that he would not have approved of torturing people to death, and the people of the Middle Ages (or the Bush administration) were deluded in their understanding of their religion. What’s tragic is how little progress has been made in the last 2000 years.
> Considering the manner of Jesus’s own death I think we can safely state
What I really dislike about Christianity is that there's a book with "absolute moral code" but it's written in stories and riddles so the absolute rules are interpreted differently by every single person, while all of them claim that the book (and thus the God) fully supports their position. There are people who abuse women and keep saying it's because Jesus said that's right, and at the same time there are people claiming that behavior is clearly forbidden by Jesus so Christianity must be good.
How are people saying Jesus said it's OK for people to abuse women? I don't think there's anything like that. Also Jesus gave plenty of advice in non-parables, e.g John 13:34:
>A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
The new testament is fairly consistent and I don't think any modern human right activist will have any issue with a single line (not the least because human rights are largely the secular transcription of christian principles). But I never understood why christianity never ditched the old testament which is full of stories that directly contradicts the said principles.
> I don't think any modern human right activist will have any issue with a single line
Maybe a few would take issue with: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. "
No. The Christian churches of various denominations have "marriage classes" where they teach how a woman must be an obedient servant to the man and never ever think of leaving him, for example - any abuse must be a fault of the woman, they said. Also, you could read up on the rejection of contraconception - of course, a woman must give him a child whenever God pleases, right?
They also teach that it's best to beat up children if they don't listen to "commands", they call it "training" as if it was a dog and not a little powerless human. There are entire books on the subject sold right in the churches (pretty expensive too - but God recommends it so what can you do).
We could also talk about transphobia and homophobia, about the "reeducation" camps, about the torture they make these people go through - mentally as well as physically.
And they make old sick poor people donate the few coins they saved up - in a damn building with more gold on it than the local bank has in its treasury. Wtf.
Don't get me started on how they encourage parents and other family members to disown and discommunicate the members of their families who break these """principles""". Several of my friends eventually bowed down to this pressure even though they fucking hate every single thing about it.
The saddest thing I ever encountered was a nice young woman who was raised (indoctrinated and groomed) in this hell and believed it was all right - and tried to get me to behave this way, took me to the fucking marriage classes. They had to call the police on me, I nearly burned that place down. I'm getting so angry I'm shaking just by remembering the terrible shit they said there.
Of course now there's also the whole thing about abortions in Poland, some US states etc - women are dying senselessly because of this - or being sent to prison. Every month I make a point of donating to the nonprofits that are trafficking women hidden in fucking windowless vans as if they were criminals running away to my state for abortions - and then they can't ever return home in many cases, because now they make doctors register pregnant women in a damn central database.
This is literally Nazi-esque shit, sponsored and encouraged by the damn churches. There already were border police chases, and it's only a question of time when somebody crashes and dies - or they start shooting. The "funny" thing is, our local police protects these vans - I wouldn't be surprised if there was a major diplomatic incident (as in cops shooting at each other) soon.
It's all horrible. Excuse me, I need to go throw up.
(yeah sure I know, this is not the true Christianity, right?)
I am referring to the new testament. Please point me to a line in the new testament which you think is objectionable, even by the wokest modern standard. I did the exercise to read it with this lens and the only thing I could find is a reference to women not asking questions when in church (something like that).
I don't care. Every """good Christian""" says this same sentence and then goes on to do (turning a blind eye is just as bad as doing) all this horrible shit because God/Jesus/somebody who speaks for them/whoever the fuck else said it's alright somewhere or else. One would think the absolute and universally understood rules of the New Testament would prevent all this?
At this point I don't believe any Christian a word out of their mouth unless they show me how they're trying to make this shit right - and I mean receipts of donations to all the nonprofits dedicated to the cause.
A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man
> A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Then again he also said:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.
Jesus wasn't speaking English. They had different idioms back then. The way I understand it is that "hate" in this context means "love less". You need to love God so much that in comparison to that love, your love for your family and friends and yourself is essentially non-existent. If they in any way would lead you away from God, you need to reject that inclination completely.
The translations include changes to modern words, don't they? Don't tell me you can't see the craziness you're leading yourself into here. And don't tell me you don't see any room for misinterpretation if you are even correct - which you aren't as the other commenter has shown.
From another commenter:
> A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man
And also:
> A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
Tell us please how we just misunderstood the context of these two. Or were we supposed to begin reading between the lines now that it doesn't sound so positive?
The translations change the individual words, and move words around to fit grammatically, but they tend to be fairly literal. See this literal word by word translation from the original Greek, and see how it's basically the same as the translation previously quoted:
Neither of those other quotes were from Jesus, they were from Paul. Neither of them say abusing women is ok. I agree that parts of the new testament sound off to modern ears. If you're interested in how those quotes can be interpreted, one example is
I guess this depends on if you think it is abuse to treat women as subservient beings and deny them their voice. But you must really fear smart women to think this is good thing.
> The way I understand it is that "hate" in this context means "love less"
It means "treat like shit and abandon". You can see this from other examples:
> He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
> Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.” Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”
> He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
That man's father is still alive. When he says "bury my father" he means continue living with his father until his father dies and he then becomes fully independent and can have time to follow Jesus. Jesus says don't wait for some long future day, follow me right now. The guy isn't literally walking to the cemetery at that moment to bury his father.
> Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.” Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”
Jesus isn't saying we shouldn't have ties to our family. Jesus goes with Peter to visit Peter's mother in law for example, and Jesus keeps in touch with his own mother. In this instance, Jesus sees this guy is making excuses and says we need to stop making excuses. Following God is more important than anything else and if we put off God in favor of family, that's wrong. We should still love our family and treat them with respect, but don't use them as an excuse to avoid following God.
> We should still love our family and treat them with respect,
That may be what you believe, which is great, but that is just not what Jesus is saying. Leaving your family without saying goodbye is just a really horrible thing to do.
Ok, looking into it more, it looks like it's not a completely agreed upon point on whether the father is alive or dead[1]. The thing is, you and I, being so far removed and thus unfamiliar with the culture and idioms of the time, don't have a real basis to claim one way or the other whether the father is alive.
>Leaving your family without saying goodbye is just a really horrible thing to do.
Jesus can see into the man's heart and knows he's making excuses. We don't really know anything about this man, but Jesus was with him frequently, and knows him well. Maybe he doesn't have any close family and is referring to distant cousins. Jesus knows that and we don't. Jesus' disciples don't abandon their family, because we're told of Jesus visiting their families with them.
There are plenty of absolute rules spelled out perfectly in black and white with zero room for interpretation that explicitly state such, the trouble is that if you follow them you end up with something that looks pretty much like Saudi Arabia.
Of course- but consider that many of the torturers would be able to rationalize what they were doing. Kings were seen as the protectors of the nation via divine appointment, and the church acted with the authority to rival what is written in the Bible- a Bible that most Christians could not even read.
Particularly with regard to punishment and value of human life.