> As a reminder to everybody the Python Community Code Of Conduct applies here.
> Closing. This is fixed. We'll open new issues for any follow up work necessary.
The issue was marked closed, because the associated work was completed and the PR was merged. The same comment happened to mention the code of conduct, but the code of conduct wasn't why the issue was closed--it was just because the work was done.
I think the comment mentioned the CoC because the previous comment, "This is appalling" was a bit rude.
> I think the comment mentioned the CoC because the previous comment, "This is appalling" was a bit rude.
The previous comment was indeed a bit rude. I personally wouldn't think it was rude enough to invoke a code of conduct.
Even just referring to a code of conduct has, IMO, a rather strong vibe of policing and perhaps even an implication of wrongdoing, more so than merely a suggestion to keep it calm.
I don't know the culture or context of Python development (either the language or CPython), but I'm inclined to agree with gdf that it's a bit weird to start reminding people of a CoC because of a slightly rude sentence or two, especially since the rest of the comment was reasonable technical argumentation even if unapologetic.
Even if closing the issue were entirely because of other reasons and benign (someone did still reference the issue in a commit later, though), it's all too easy to see the issue-closing comment as shutting out dissenting opinions, either because of a somewhat unpleasantly expressed argument or simply because "this is fixed, no further discussion needed".
The "this is appalling" comment may have been a bit rude but the closing one wasn't exactly a triumph in communication either.
> Even just referring to a code of conduct has, IMO, a rather strong vibe of policing and perhaps even an implication of wrongdoing, more so than merely a suggestion to keep it calm.
I'd say the opposite. A suggestion to "keep it calm" is inappropriate, because it carries the implication that someone is not calm. This is inappropriate because it is a comment on a person's emotional state rather than on what they say or how they say it.
In fact, if someone on my team said to "keep it calm", I'd take that person aside and explain, in private, the reasons why not to say that.
> Even if closing the issue were entirely because of other reasons and benign (someone did still reference the issue in a commit later, though), it's all too easy to see the issue-closing comment as shutting out dissenting opinions, [...]
If somebody thought that closing the issue shut out dissenting opinions, then that person has forgotten how GitHub issues work or how bug trackers work in general. Closing an issue just means that someone thinks that the work on it is done; it does not stop discussion on the issue. I can see why someone might forget and not realize that the issue was closed and not the discussion, but I don't think that it's a problem that someone visiting the bug from HN would forget how GitHub issues work for a minute.
With any online community above a certain size, there's a certain amount of policing not just of what is said, but where people have discussions. Anyone who regularly uses a forum, Subreddit, Discord server, IRC, Slack, etc. will see this pattern of behavior everywhere. For example--the discussion about whether this is the right way to fix a bug is a discussion which should be held elsewhere, where people can see the context and interested parties can respond to it.
Which is why there is a comment at the bottom,
> Please redirect further discussion to discuss.python.org.
It's crystal clear to me that this is not about shutting out dissenting voices, but just saying that this GitHub issue is the wrong place for this discussion.
You can see that there is a related issue which was closed, but there was a lot of discussion afterwards--but because the discussion was on-topic, the issue was not locked.
> I'd say the opposite. A suggestion to "keep it calm" is inappropriate, because it carries the implication that someone is not calm.
Perhaps a suggestion to "keep it calm" wouldn't be the best. English isn't my first language and my verbal expression isn't always the greatest. But referring to a code of conduct does also carry the implication that someone isn't minding that code, and I don't see how that would necessarily be better.
In my view, suggesting that someone isn't calm is less of a reprimand than suggesting they might be in breach of a code of conduct which, among other things, includes rules against outright harassment and other clearly reprehensible behaviour. It's normal to not be calm at times; it's another thing if someone needs to be reminded of the rules of a community. Perhaps it's a cultural thing but to me the latter is stronger judgement.
There may well be reasons for not saying to keep it calm (it sometimes simply doesn't work), but I can equally well see how people might see a reference to a CoC as strong-armed.
> If somebody thought that closing the issue shut out dissenting opinions, then that person has forgotten how GitHub issues work or how bug trackers work in general. Closing an issue just means that someone thinks that the work on it is done; it does not stop discussion on the issue.
That's fair enough. Perhaps the intention is clear enough within the community that it would indeed be deemed as simply closing that rather specific GitHub issue without implying that the matter is closed.
Human communication isn't always quite that simple, though. People get impressions from the way things are expressed. "This is fixed." makes it feel that there is nothing to be discussed about that particular change and that it is final.
I don't know the particular community well enough to know how it would be interpreted, though.
> Which is why there is a comment at the bottom,
>> Please redirect further discussion to discuss.python.org.
That's after the comment that closed the issue. Had it been in the issue-closing comment, that would have left a different taste to the closing.
> Perhaps a suggestion to "keep it calm" wouldn't be the best. English isn't my first language and my verbal expression isn't always the greatest. But referring to a code of conduct does also carry the implication that someone isn't minding that code, and I don't see how that would necessarily be better.
Yes, a suggestion to "keep it calm" is definitely bad.
It would be nice if there were an easy way for people who are not good at English to respond to comments without having to figure out the right way to respond. You could create a "standardized response", and have a committee of people with different backgrounds review the content of that response to ensure that it clear and conveys the right messages.
That "standardized response" is the code of conduct.
A code of conduct is a beautiful thing. You do not need to be a skilled English speaker to send someone a link to the code of conduct. The
> [...] but I can equally well see how people might see a reference to a CoC as strong-armed.
It sounds like these people may be prejudiced against the code of conduct, or prejudiced against codes of conduct in general. I think if you have such people in your community, that the right thing to do is to expose them to the code of conduct so they get used to it and realize that the code of conduct is not such a bad thing or a scary thing.
If you try and shield people in the community from the code of conduct out of fear that they might react poorly to it, then I think you're doing a disservice to the community.
Have you personally read the Python code of conduct? Or are you just imagining what is written in the code of conduct?
> Human communication isn't always quite that simple, though. People get impressions from the way things are expressed.
Yes... which is why for important messages, we have teams of people that review the messages over and over again to make sure that those messages are expressed properly and they are easy to understand. Messages like the code of conduct.
You cannot expect the same level of clarity from a two-line comment in a GitHub issue. This is why referring to the code of conduct is such a good idea--it is much clearer and easier to understand, because it has been reviewed so thoroughly.
Reading that thread left a bad taste in my mouth. OP sounds very toxic. Stuff like that is why I stay away from open source “communities” and stick to fixing issues that personally affect me.
