The keyboard rabbit-hole gets pretty deep. I started off wanting a nicer typing experience, and ended up realising so much about the traditional keyboard designs didn't make sense to me (here's someone nicely summing up the reasons why https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrska7UU7BE).
The keyboard hobby has led me to realize a few major things-
1. The capslock key should not be where it is. In no sane layout should such an easy to reach key serve such a niche purpose.
2. The spacebar is a massive waste of space. I LOVE split space layouts (typing on a mercutio right now). Having all 3 "spaces" act as space on tap helps, and makes it easy to hold for modifiers.
3. Having the numpad/arrow keys right under my right hand (arrows on jkli, numpad basically on jkl = 456, functions in the same layout) is SO much faster than having to move your hand to get to those kinds of keys. The navigation keys being at my fingertips is ESPECIALLY useful as a coder where using things like home/end/pgup/pgdown can really help you move through your code faster.
I'm now at my end game (mercutio 40 on my "entertainment" machine, a crkbd at work (soon be be a cornish zen), and a discipline 60 for my gaming machine....seriously rougelikes are the only reason it's not all 40's), and it's been a hell of a path. I really hope the market expands a bit more because there's a lot of nice things when people start getting into the hobby, but it's a rough hobby to get into given how expensive it can get.
Just going to throw this out there because I haven’t seen it referenced much on HN, but as someone who spends 8+ hours a day in one flavor of AutoCAD or another I am constantly cycling between caps lock and standard. Nearly every modern plan set produced is done in all caps, and with nearly all standard office communication being done through email or slack switching from one to the other easily is really quite important to me and my colleagues.
Even in cases like that (SQL is sometimes supposed to be all caps), it's pretty trivial to either make it all caps, or to throw caps on another layer and quickly access it.
It might actually justify it's positional priority in your case if you're literally switching between CAD and normal communication a ton, but even then i suspect you wouldn't mind it somewhere else.
This is like the one valid caps lock use case you hear about. Would having caps lock be somewhere near scroll lock be a bad thing even in your use case? For the vast majority of people and use cases it is a near pointless key in a prime spot. Even worse it USED to be that ctrl and caps lock were swapped on early Apple II, IBM PC keyboards but for some unknown reason IBM decided to swap em.
Numpad removal is similar. I'm a heavy CAD/spreadsheet user and I cannot live without a numpad, which is by far the fastest way to input numbers. Most DIY builds, its the first thing to be removed.
Layout software like Indesign simply uses a Standard/All Caps/Small Caps setting that you can apply to a style for this, why would you need to type it all in caps?
When in Emacs I use a custom command that converts lowercase underscore-separated words to uppercase after typing the word out in lowercase so I don't have to use shift or capslock.
I think the capslock position is a holdover from manual typewriters. Pressing the shift or capslock keys actually lifted up a fair chunk of the internal metal of the thing, so it was fairly strenuous. You also use to do all-caps for headings and such much more often.
I learned to touch type on manual typewriters in school. I was the only boy in the class as it was geared towards secretarial work - but I knew I was going to have a career on computers so thought it was worthwhile.
As I believe the function of the caps/shift lock on most, if not all, manual typewriters that had it was to physically lock the shift key's mechanism down in some manner, its position above the shift key was also largely dictated by the mechanism, as it needs to be positioned along the shift key's arm.
The existence of the caps lock can be ascribed both to all-caps being more useful as a heading and for emphasis on manual typewriters, where only one typeface and size was available, as you point out, and to the substantial mechanism making it more difficult to hold the shift key down while typing.
Surprisingly, however, the size of caps lock on most modern keyboards doesn't seem to come from manual typewriters. At least on pre-1960s/70s manual typewriters, caps locks seem to be the same size as normal keys, if not smaller; shift keys are often larger, but are also not enormous. Most examples of large caps lock keys that I can find seem to start only one electric typewriters, exactly where they wouldn't seem as useful. It is possible that there are practical reasons why having a long keycap for a key requiring substantial force would be problematic for manual typewriters, but this still doesn't explain why the caps lock would become larger on electric typewriters, only why the shift might. So I'm left rather confused as to why they became the standard.
(Of course, on my keyboards, they are usually remapped to control, or to a control/escape combination.)
Most devs that had apple’s touch bar keyboard remapped caps to escape. I enjoyed that change so much that I did it everywhere. Voila, a useful key within easier reach… especially for vim.
It’s a rough “hobby” because all the options make it possible to build the perfect board but it takes a lot of trial and error to figure out what you really like.
I say “hobby” because I just started wanting a nice keyboard at the start and to be honest I find building boards boring.
Caps lock is where and how it is because its importance for typewriters. When you can’t change fonts, caps are important to realize hierarchy. I agree the contexts have now changed.
> The navigation keys being at my fingertips is ESPECIALLY useful as a coder where using things like home/end/pgup/pgdown can really help you move through your code faster.
This is why Vim key bindings are the first thing I install for any editor.
I’m curious about how you use spaces and arrows. Is it that you have space work on tab but on hold it becomes fn1 or allows you to jump to a different layer?
I don’t have split spaces but it had never occurred to me to use space as a mod!
yeah, dipping your toe in this hobby is like dipping your toe into a triple A MMORPG. Make sure you are prepared for the toll it may take on your productive years.
As I said in another part of this thread, I don't have any problem "dipping my toe in". It isn't difficult at all to enjoy using a good mechanical keyboard without becoming obsessed with it. My friends who use mechanical keyboards also don't have any problem with that kind of obsession. I guess it depends on the person.
I don’t get it though. What’s the payoff, marginally better comfort and typing speed or is it like having collectibles to own and show off? Personally, sure a mechanical keyboard is a little more satisfying to type on but who really cares.
There's another side to the mechanical keyboard community that is focused on ergonomics [1]. I personally use a Kinesis Advantage 2 [2] with an Adantage 360 [3] on preorder. These are not marginal improvements to my quality of life, they enable me to continue using a keyboard at all.
As for the very expensive, mostly standard layout keyboards... it's an expensive hobby with marginal improvements at best, but the same could be said about furniture purchases. Most people don't choose furniture based solely off its functional characteristics. They want something pleasant to look at, especially since it's something they're using every day for a long period of time. I think there's plenty of utility in that, though personally I would never pay the prices that these people do.
Same, split keyboard (with thumb cluster) may take some time to get used to, but it does improve the QoL for me. The major problem with this is that either the keyboards are relatively expensive or you have to DIY. I'm looking to clone the moonlander keyboard but modify its layout to redox, and print it by myself. DIY can cut down a lot of the cost.
Would love to get one (actually any split one), but they are crazy expensive. Add duties (I’m in the EU) and it goes beyond what I would be willing to spend for something that I can’t even try first. I don’t even need mechanical switches, wireless, backlight or programmability, but I will probably need two of them in the end.
DIY can lower the price, but it is a hustle and in the time needed is not free.
Maybe at some point Logitech will offer a split one for a more reasonable price, but I won’t hold my breath.
Be careful with split keyboards, or any keyboards with fewer keys or columns than usual, if you’re a European user. Many split layouts have a missing column on the right, where accent keys are located. One has to assign them to different keys or combos, which results in a substantially different typing habits with a steep learning curve, in my experience.
The unfortunate reality is you can't have both an inexpensive and prebuilt keyboard in this space. I'd suggest looking for a used Kinesis Advantage 1 or 2 on ebay as that might be a little more palatable and the used prices are fairly stable so you won't lose too much money if you find you don't like it.
Same here, although once I'd spent an absurd amount of money and then even more time, I finally, settled on a really good setup and haven't had the desire to change it. IRIS keyboard (https://keeb.io/products/iris-rev-4-keyboard-split-ergonomic...) with my own QMK keymap with 3 layers.
Pro'bly the most popular pre-built keyboard along the same lines is the Moonlander. https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ The configuration user experience would be nicer with this.
It's not precisely the same, but the ZSA Moonlander has the same layout with stilts and a wrist rest so that you can position it how you feel best. The real winner is their Oryx firmware that makes reprogramming the keys on the board a breeze. It's the best investment I've made in my ergonomic health.
> The real winner is their Oryx firmware that makes reprogramming the keys on the board a breeze. It's the best investment I've made in my ergonomic health.
As a Moonlander owner who loves it, it's worth pointing out that most QMK-based boards (including the Moonlander itself with a third party firmware) can support the VIA system for similar easy GUI programming.
Not for everyone. For years I have preferred keyboards with Cherry MX switches, but I just buy fairly inexpensive ones used. Not really a rabbit hole at all.
That applies to basically any hobby though right? The perceived depth of the hobby is largely dependent on your desire to explore that depth. It can be incredibly deep for some, as evidenced by people designing their own switches - or shallow (for you) by saying Cherry is good enough.
Would you share your keymap? Curious how you're able to get all the necessary characters without making wrist-twisting layer combos. Or are you uisng chording?
- Home Row modifiers: putting Shift, Ctrl, Gui, Alt behind tap-hold functionality on the home row keys. (Now you don't need to strain your pinky finger with these, and can stay on the home row more).
- More thumb keys, with layering using tap-hold. This brings Backspace, Enter, Esc, Tab to within reach of the thumb, and provides a bunch of layers.
- Patterns on the LHS: Use of numpad idiom instead of number row (covering symbols, and function keys); symmetrical brackets, paretheses, and curly braces.
- Use of the HJKL idiom for stuff like arrow keys, volume control, home/end. etc.
Ah, cheers. This is very close to what I have actually, using a custom mapping heavily inspired by miryoku on a 3x6+3.
The reason I feel limited regardless is partly that even after giving it some time, it drove me nuts to have asymmetric layer keys (that is, I want to be able to activate the nav layer from either thumb), and some of the movements (notably pinky as a common modifier) ended up causing pain after a while. Plus I have need for at least another one due to often switching between a handful of languages and scripts (this would normally be addressed by AltGr - which would collide if at any a-z - plus an additional key only present on some standard layouts). So I feel a serious need for more thumb keys. And you somehow manage to get by with only two per side!
Maybe I'll take another attempt at getting used to deduplicating the thumbs before I start looking at printing custom PCBs... At least Ergogen mentioned above should make that a lot easier if I go there.
Ah, I use 3+2 thumbkeys. (Tab, Esc, Space; Backspace, Enter). If I did have to go down to 2+2, I'd put Tab on an easy to access layer.
That said, I think 2-3 is the number of thumb keys that are easy to reach. More than that, and it's harder for the thumb to reach, although allows access to more layers. -- Might as well put tap-hold modifiers on other keys, imo. (e.g. the outer column, or the lower row).
Also.. yeah, Miryoku's layer-opposite-the-thumbkey is elegant, but if it's too restrictive for your usecase, no need to respect it. I'd think e.g. having access to navkeys on the LHS would suit both mouse+keyboard usage, as well as when you've got two hands on the keyboard.
(The layout currently has more than 32 keys due to extra function keys on the sides and modifiers on the bottom that I only use very rarely. I also no longer use the top pinky keys anymore.)
I have a vim-inspired modal mapping with three main modes: normal (navigation with arrows, pgup/dn, tab switching, etc.), mouse (to move the mouse), and qwerty (for typing). There is one always-present key for each mode that is dedicated only to switching permanently to that mode. These keys are on each of my thumbs, and the third on my right pinky. Each mode also has several unique (and some shared) temporary layers accessible by temporarily holding other keys.
I use a moonlander keyboard but my thumbs sit on the inside keys on the third row, and my palms on the top larger keys that are intended to be used for thumbs.
Yeah I haven't seen it done elsewhere, but I started doing that because those 2 inside keys on the third row are where my thumbs sit naturally if fully rest my hands.
It's in a bit of a rough state (one folder is for a OLED + RGB Corne r2g, and another is a currently messy adaptation for a Ferris Sweep)
The keymap itself is pretty straightforward. As rgoulter guessed it's just a modification of Miryoku (https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku), with some tweaks I made to keep functionally similar layers "together". E.g. the mouse key and navigation key layers are mirror images of each other. And there's a numpad layer, with nested symbols and function key layers that stack from the initial numpad layer. I also designed it to share the load between both hands as much as possible.
For me the optimum is a split 34-key keyboard (the open-source Ferris Sweep https://github.com/davidphilipbarr/Sweep) with a custom keymap firmware (QMK).
Going even deeper, you can generate a PCB layout that's personalised to the shape of your hands: https://github.com/ergogen/ergogen