I think your hate is unwarranted. I also never understood the pricing argument, it's not all about the cpus and memory and such, there's nothing in the windows world that comes close to build quality, battery quality and durability. If you're a software engineer working with docker a lot, a few hundred dollars shouldn't matter that much for a tool you'll use every day for years.

The M1 is amazing, battery is insane, I'm running 20+ docker containers, python, elixir, react/vue on the 8gb M1 air without a hitch. My main work machine is a linux desktop, but I'm considering buying a Mac Studio as my next one.

There are a lot of people who cant taste the difference between Pepsi and Coca Cola.

Which is the reason why they dont understand the minor differences in Keyboard, Trackpad, Speakers, Chassis finishing, durability, Power Supply, Display, etc.

So yes, Macbook is totally ahead of everything else in the industry. And that is coming from someone who supported Apple for 20+ years but currently intensely dislike Tim Cook's Apple.

> Which is the reason why they dont understand the minor differences in Keyboard, Trackpad, Speakers, Chassis finishing, durability, Power Supply, Display, etc.

Or they just have different preferences.

I have a macpro and a lenovo X1 carbon, and I prefer the X1 for most things.

The X1 keyboard wins hands down.

The mac looks nicer with the aluminium finish and doesn't get fingerprints all over it, but its sharp edged and not a nice felling surface like the X1 rubbery coating.

The X1 trackpad is smaller but tracks just as well as the mac touchpad and I prefer the physical buttons.

Mac has way better sound, but its also much bigger.

The X1 weighs significantly less but feels like its made out of stone with its carbon and magnesium chassis.

The biggest benefit of Apple is they don't make low end trash laptops - so if you are starting a corporate job the Apple laptop is a safer pick vs the Windows laptop lottery where you might get some janky low end Dell.

Agree with almost everything. But again most dont pick X1 as comparison in terms of Windows Laptop.

Especially the Keyboard, 1.5mm Ley Travel ( if I remember correctly ). Which was the old scissor keyboard Apple used to have but switch to some insane low key travel typing experience.

I think a lot of the Windows Laptop are finally catching up to Macbook. Simply because YouTube and reviewers are pointing out some of these things as comparison. And funny enough Microsoft is the one pushing this with their Surface Laptop. And largely the last point is the key difference. Apple dont make low end trash.

These debates always follow the same path - compare mac to crappy windows laptop of half the price, then compare to retail price of a decent windows laptop, then compare to street price of a decent windows laptop.

In reality if you are paying out of your own pocket the best value is to keep an eye on the refresh cycle for decent windows laptops and buy the previous generation at a heavy discount when the latest one comes out. This obviously assumes you aren't needing a new laptop asap, rather just upgrading for whatever reason.

For something you’re likely to use every day for at least 3-4 years in part to make a living I would say $400 is not a material difference. Like $0.35/day and that doesn’t take into account differences in residual (resale) value between Apple and non-Apple laptops.

Interesting, can't believe you're able to run all those containers on a meager 8GB. Is it because the swap ability on M1 is somehow better/faster than previous gen?

Thanks for the insight. Looks like the unified memory does provide a lot of complementing value to RAM in general then. However, I am wondering, what would be the value of adding more physical RAM compared to having it provisioned via swap?

SSD throughput was crippled for the entry level M2, beware. More real RAM always better to a point. 16GB is a bare minimum for a machine that can’t be upgraded imho, and has been for years.

Due to that insistence our 2013 MBP is still going strong, and saved several thousand dollars in the process.

The memory management definitely is better. I have an 8GB M1 Air as a "work laptop" and I've never had any issues despite my Windows/Linux computers needing an upgrade to 24 GB because 16 just wasn't cutting it anymore.

No opinion on Mac vs. Windows, other than to say that you shouldn’t buy something you hate.

I’d question the “huge battery” of the Windows laptop, though. My understanding is that the MacBook Pros have the largest battery the FAA allows on US airplanes. So it seems unlikely the Windows laptop has a bigger battery. Given the Mac’s excellent battery management and low power consumption, you’re likely to get better battery life from the Mac.

Like other people said, I'd just go with the Framework, either Windows or Linux.

I think there are a lot of issues with Apple and their products to the point where I'd rather not use them / support that company.

One of many examples would be how they handled the butterfly keyboard issue. If a hardware vendor behaves in such a way, I'd never buy another product from them again. In fact, Lenovo also had a few 'support issues' over the last few years, because of which I won't recommend any of their products here.

Maybe view it this way: no product is perfect; no product will fit everybody. When going for a Windows laptop, you have a _much_ bigger selection of products (and vendors) to choose from.

Pick a machine that fits your needs; don't bend your needs to fit the machine.

Apple MacBook hands down.

I've had various Dell laptops personally, and of course used HP laptops on the job until 4 years ago, at which point I lucked into jobs where MacBooks were used. The hardware is just that much better.

I should add that I never used Windows on the Dells, just Linux.

I feel like I should add: don't get a magic mouse. Get a 3 button USB mouse, and a USB-C adapter if need be.

Magic mouse is cool for a week then it sucks. It loses connection and scrolling and clicks are not 100% reliable. Its also expensive.

I'm still clinging onto an original MX revolution mouse (so far as soldering in replacement microswitches).

The scroll wheel that automatically changes from indexed to free spinning sounds wanky, but going back to a normal mouse is painful once you are used to it.

I use a Logitech Mouse and Keyboard combo. Is there any USB-C dongle available for those at all?

If your work requires x86, as does mine currently, I would get a machine like Framework laptop with Linux.

Asahi project looks like it will take a good two years before it "Just Works" for everyone. And from my experience, Docker implementation on macOS is still pretty slow.

Windows 11 + WSL2 is kinda good. Depending on who you ask.

HN demographic tends to favor Apple. Just so you know if you already didn't.

> I would get a machine like Framework laptop with Linux.

Throwing in support for this. Linux is the most sensible desktop I have used (Windows for 15+ years, Linux for 1 year, and MacOS for a miserable 6 months). WSL is incredible, in my opinion, but Windows 11 has been taking a very steep dive in the past year.

Is Linux officially supported by Framework laptops? I used Linux desktop for years but decided to give it a long pause because of constant driver issues and things like Hibernate/Sleep, Fingerprint sensors etc. Not working

Framework is pretty Linux friendly. See https://frame.work/linux

I'm in the exactly same situation. RAM is the most important reason. Add to this the x86 support and macos doesnt seems a good option any more. BUT then, you see all devs and presenters on most famous dev confs use mac. Yes, macs are the most stable system for presentations and its a unix with commercial apps. Even office are now M1 native. I had a problem, docker keycloak didnt have arm version, well the solution was, build docker the version of keycloak in arm arch and you're done.

There is no generic answer. For me, the best option is get a cheap windows machine or cheap mac and remote connect to a linux desktop in you company (if you have the option). That desktop will run 24h burning their power, and you are light and on the go with a cheap terminal which has MS office.

The other solution I tests is, connect your IDE (vscode, intellij) with remote development ssh in a linux vm (on cloud, or your company). Again you have linux x86 and a glorified terminal-computer.

with mac, you have a bonus, able to dev in ios and test safari. BUT the biggest con is compatibility. It was already a con compared to windows, but now with arm is even worst.

If you're going to use Linux, I'd just recommend getting an actually-supported laptop like the Framework or something. If you're going to get the Mac, I wouldn't futz around with trying to install an OS that still lacks webcam support and ARM packaging for common apps like Zoom. As for Windows... unless you intend to use it as a gaming laptop, I'd probably skip it. Docker simply works the best on Linux, but I'm sure you've already heard that before.

I agree. As well as framework. Dell//HP and system76 all sell pcs with Linux pre installed. I like the system76 as I enjoy a Mat screen.

One point for consideration: Recently got a 12th gen Intel i5 laptop. I'm experiencing some suboptimal performance (most notably what appears as occasional brief "pauses" waiting for I/O). The built-in Intel wifi card is inoperable (manufacturer says this should be fixed in the next BIOS/fw upgrade). Also the power thing already covered extensively elsewhere.

Haven't looked deeper into it but a guess is that the new core architecture with P-cores and E-cores isn't utilized optimally under Linux. It's still perfectly usable (no actual freezes, crashes or instability so far) and I'm convinced that the situation will keep improving. If potential subtle performance irregularities today is a concern for you I'd recommend getting an AMD-based system (or even 11th-gen Intel if you really want the FW, which would be my pick).

If you want to optimize for reliable and stable with minimum hassle, get a device where the manufacturer actually supports Linux. It can make a big difference for things like network, audio and BT.

One thing to consider is the keyboard layout: while I love my 2013 MacBook Air (still humming along long after it's Razer successor died) I always trip over the layout of the ctrl/fn/option/flower keys vs the ctrl[/fn]/win/alt keys on the PC keyboards I use just as often. True, you can remap them, but if you do you end up with cognitive dissonance if you ever actually look at what key you're about to press; to this day I find this distracting and frequently frustrating.

Unless you're already used to the Apple keyboard layout I wouldn't be seduced by the sexy hardware and outstanding engineering; I know I won't make that mistake again.

I have both in front of me at the moment, and the MacBook just blows the Windows laptop (which cost twice as much!) out of the water in terms of real-world performance & battery life. MacOS is far more efficient in terms of memory usage, and the optimizations Apple has quietly been working on for the last decade have seriously paid off - it is unreal, to say the least.

That said, I recommend whatever you are comfortable with, and prefer using day-to-day. You don't need to have "the best", you need to have something you prefer and enjoy using.

I find Apple hate to be strange. They are just like any other company. They don’t go out of their way to hire the most evil engineers and execs. They have good behaviours they should be credited for and bad behaviours they should be criticised for just like the others.

Often the hate is based on misinformation too, when asked haters will say things like “Apple slowed down old phones so you’ll buy a new one” - it doesn’t even click that the word “battery” in batterygate is important, or that Apple was extending the life of handsets, many of which were out of warranty. They didn’t communicate properly for which they paid heavily for but they feature was in good faith and survives to this day but I still read the parroted comment at least once a month in forums.

The “overpriced” thing confuses me too - surely Apple can only judge that? If they meet their sales targets then wasn’t it priced correctly? People obviously judged the specs, build quality, support period and thought, this is good value?

Engineers REALLY don't understand pricing. Models with higher specs like more RAM target the professional segment which isn't that price sensitive, most likely just having their company buy it for them. It's a way to capture more value from that segment. It's like saying why do these agencies charge $50k for a website, I could do it in a weekend.

Or they do understand Apple's pricing, but realize you can buy PC hardware with much larger RAM and disk space for much better price.

Yes, this is my gripe. Man, the 2017 Macbooks that removed USB Ports and brought in the touchbar (which to me, is pointless) were just a big misstep. I could buy an equally capable Windows laptop for 1/3rd the price then.

You’re just proving my point.

Which one? That engineers do not understand that Apple can charge more than PC makers?

Apple is seen as premium brand by most of their customers who are willing to pay more just for that alone. Overpriced image is certainly justified based on price they charge for upgrades (8gb to 16gb, 256gb to 512gb etc). In my experience Apple hardware is on par with the rest of the major brands, some models might be better, some worse, as is the case with all manufactures but Apple users usually stick with Apple even after bad experience and are willing to pay extra for initial purchase, extra for upgrades, extra for insurance plans that are almost mandatory, and extra for peripherals. People who shy away from Apple are usually less inclined to pay extra for things that they believe should be included or "premium" brand peripherals and upgrades, and are also willing, and able, to switch brands if they receive faulty hardware or poor service.

You didn't really say what your typical workload is so it's hard to have a useful opinion here. I wanted to address the

> it should breeze through Docker because of WSL

part though. In both macos and WSL what happens is you end up running docker on a vm and communicating with it from the host. Similar overhead either way, with the difference that you can run some existing images on m1 without an extra Intel emulation layer.

Apple M1 is great performance per watt and great marketing on the internets, but that's it. MacOS limits what a computing enthusiast can do. Virtualization and docker do not work great on M1.

PC is a little worse in perf/watt, but you can install any OS you want and tweak anything you want. And get much more RAM and disk space for the same buck. For serious computing professional, PC wins big time.

The MacBook Air is maybe my favorite computer right now and I kind of don’t like MacOS either. If you can live with MacOS then I think it is worth it. I find 16 gb not to be an issue on MacOS. Even when it sometimes might be on a comparable Windows machine. I can’t say if this is just my perception or if it is something that Apple is doing differently with their memory management.

Put Linux on the PC if going to be mostly plugged in. If mostly on the go, get the Mac.

If I went with Apple, I would not get the M2 13" MBP because it's a piece of crap. The M1 MBPs are good machines, as is the M2 Air.

You should probably state if the Windows laptop is a modern AMD SoC or Intel.

The performance gap is much wider when compared to Intel's current offerings AIUI.

I would recommend getting the 16gb MacBook, I have the 8gb Air and it’s great but with some video stuff I think a little more memory would help.

I didn’t notice much differences between docker on WSL or Docker on Mac. I use Colima or podman, Docker Desktop is not worth its price.

complete anecdata but I have a 2015 a Macbook I still use everyday.

I have been through several Dell XPS's in that time.

The build quality on Mac is unparalleled.