Having moved from germany to canada (Vancouver BC) in 2017, I can tell you that "quality of life" is highly subjective, and a lot of things in germany work far better than it seems - but you will only notice it if you have anything to compare against.

E.g. [online] shopping and stock availability is so much better in germany, and you only notice what a privilege it is to get everything you need in 1 day once it's taken away from you. Groceries are super cheap in germany compared to canada. Cellphone and ISP service and pricing is often looked down upon in germany, but still also better than lots of other places. [Free] eduction is also good.

Housing in Berlin in 200k should be as comfortable as in Vancouver on 400k and new building construction quality is good. But sure - there will be tons of other places on this planet where housing is cheaper.

Then there's considerations about healthcare (where germany is probably neither at the top end nor the bottom end of the spectrum).

And of course also about long term job perspectives. While you might be able to find a remote job now, it could be much harder to maintain it or look for future opportunities in some locations than in others. Being in a country with a big tech industry or at least in the same timezone will help retaining opportunities.

You touch a number of very important points here. Thanks for that. We're aware of the fact, that the overall situation in many countries in the world is much, much worse. So it's kind of a luxury problem. What is actually a challenge, is that I work as a freelancer for 20 years now and still have to go a long way to secure my private pension. I once calculated my personal "real" tax rate in Germany, and ended up at around 71%. Especially due to the fact, that we both are in the highest income tax band but also due to the fact that there are taxes on close to everything. But since we're not really consume oriented, we're fine with lower income, IF we find a place, where life is just more relaxed. Thank you for your thoughts.

One thing that's really hard to compare when looking at taxes is the quality of public services you get.

UK has not low taxes by any measure, but certainly lower than eg Germany, at 200k you're looking at effective tax rate of about 35-40% all in. But state schools are a lottery and shut down for 13 weeks a year. Healthcare is good if you can get seen but otherwise it's the private health insurance. Public transport is expensive. Social security in this segment of earnings is non-existent, you would be ineligible for many things (because "earn too much"), unemployment benefits only available if you have 0 savings left and so on.

I'm not sure I'd recommend the UK though it's less bad an option than it seems, it's just a demo.

In UK, can you please tell me how at 200K pounds, the taxes can come down only to 35-40% especially at 125K or above, the 60% tax trap kicks in. [1] If you can specify any tax saving tips or refer to some consultant, I will be grateful.

Really the only way in UK is to put in a large part of your earnings into pension contributions which effectively makes it out of bounds till 55 or 57 from 2028 onwards, which means even if you have FU money you can't use it. Again if you have large RSU payouts due to working at a FAANG, it can be difficult as you start hitting lifetime allowance of your pension contributions.

[1] https://www.nutmeg.com/nuggets/escape-the-60-tax-trap

edit: specifying that the above comment is for UK

I based my guesstimate off a rate of 200k EUR (OP says he's in Germany), or 170k GBP. Income tax and NI come up to 65k according to govt website (assuming you're not paying extras like student loan repayment etc). That's an effective rate of 38%.

The article you link is about marginal rates, and these are indeed all over the place, buy that's a different story.

Tax calculator: https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/estimate-paye-take-home-pay/y...

If you work for yourself you usually create a Ltd. and pay yourself in dividends, not income.

What 60% trap is that? The linked page looks very suspicious and doesn't offer much information.

Between 100k and 125k you lose £1 of your tax allowance for each £2 you earn. Which greatly increases your tax in that window.

It does, but not greatly: for a £110k salary the effective taxes (including NIC) are around 35%.

It is not a good idea to get your tax information from an investment corporation advertisement.

How do you come to the 72%, I'm just interested.

VAT + Income Tax + Socials?

Income tax + business tax pile up to 50% already. I don't pay social taxes by choice, hence I do not benefit from the social net. If I add up all other taxes then, I end up pretty close at 70%. Meaning mostly VAT, taxes on gas and oil, alcohol, tobacco, final withholding tax on stock and crypto investments and speculation, vehicle tax, electricity tax. All in all there are close to 40 different types of tax, but we don't have to pay all of them. But being in the highest income tax band as a tech freelancer with virtually no deductible costs you pay taxes first, and then have to take care about health care, insurances and pension afterwards. Even if you make some good money, that does not leave you with a lot to live. At least that's our scenario for many years now.

You can compare taxes here: https://files.taxfoundation.org/20191022154112/TEMTR-41Count...

To compare cost of living: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp

Safety comparison: https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2...

How does that work? I mean the tax rate is progressive and as a freelancer you only pay the normal income tax. If the tax authority insists you're a Gewerbe you'll have to pay Gewerbesteuer as well, but most of that can be deduced from your income tax already. Just wondering how you get at this number, calculating with 240 T€ and tax class 1 I only arrive around 40 % income tax.

You're right on progression and Gewerbesteuer deduction. Nevertheless I pay tax rate "Höchststeuersatz" at 45%. Add "Solidarzuschlag" and you end up very close to 50%.

Yeah this is not really how you do the math (and your salary should count as expense for the Gewerbesteuer no?)

You should calculate the end % of tax. The 45% is the marginal rate. Also the solidarity tax has a ceiling

(And not everything is charged the full VAT rate)

And in the end, that number doesn't mean much? Switzerland for example had much lower tax, but your cost of life shot up. Some other places your income tax might be lower but sales taxes are higher.

It's all relative

Edit, as an example for 200kEUR in Berlin your tax will be ~ 43% (Cat I) - for 1MEUR/yr you're paying 46%

(this is not so much about Berlin or Germany - the math is the same everywhere - it's about people thinking that the rate means they pay that % of their salary)

But the 45 % is only paid for income above 277 T€ (or twice that much if you're married)? I mean, it's a lot but if you alone are in that tax bracket you should be able to afford housing in Germany and Berlin, that puts you somewhere in the top 0.5 % of all families, not even accounting for your partners income.

sounds like you need a proper tax consultant

>Income tax + business tax pile up to 50% already

Is that for all your income or "just" over a certain threshold?

>Even if you make some good money, that does not leave you with a lot to live.

You said you travelled to different countries in Europe, Africa and Asia. Do you consider that not leaving you with a lot to live?

>with virtually no deductible costs you pay taxes first, and then have to take care about health care, insurances and pension afterwards

Those are all, up to a certain degree, deductible from your taxes, right?

>Is that for all your income or "just" over a certain threshold?

Regarding income tax, there is a tax free allowance of 9.984.

>You said you travelled to different countries in Europe, Africa and Asia. Do you consider that not leaving you with a lot to live?

We travel for more than 15 years and we mostly leverage so called PEP offers, which reduce your travel cost to a fraction of the real cost. Otherwise we'd not be able to afford that.

>Those are all, up to a certain degree, deductible from your taxes, right?

That's the point. They are NOT! The only deductible position would be an official pension insurance. If you invest on your own (which we do) you can not deduct a dime. Everything else we have to pay AFTER taxation.

Sound's like it's quite a lot to live on if you have enough cash on hand to travel only "mostly" on PEP.

>That's the point. They are NOT!

Your private pension might not be - but with Health Care, business expenses and certain type of insurances there's more than "virtually no deductible costs" though.

There's a lot of stuff that seems unfair, I agree. I'm not here to debate that you pay more into the system as others and don't get more benefits from it - but the picture you're painting of a 70 % overall tax rate and "not a lot to live on" strikes me as a bit too grim.

Can you share your working out for the “real” tax rate? We could see how various US states, first world countries vary. Does knowing that the lowest state is say 50% make it easier to pick Portugal at say 60%?

More relaxed than Germany? I always thought it's one of the most relaxed country in the world. Rich, well-run, with excellent safety nets, great worker rights etc.

I would pick Barbados for tax reasons

> to canada (Vancouver BC)

I mean Vancouver is not exactly a paragon of affordable housing either.

Toronto, Edmonton, Vancouver...probably couldn't be more different. Would not want to lump all of Canada into one of those cities.

Montreal is the most affordable city in canada that doesn't suck. It's a bit hard to believe how cheap it still is (relatively!), yet imo it's a much better place to live in than Toronto/Ottawa/Edmonton.

Too cold and French speaking.

Berlin to Edmonton? Maybe it could work if nightlife doesn't matter at all to you.

OP is specifically requesting no cold winters and you guys are talking about Edmonton ;)

sure, this wasn't meant as a suggestion to take Vancouver into consideration - it certainly won't win anything on affordability.

It was just meant to offer my perspective and lessons learned around moving from germany to another location. I am sure for other locations there are again other pro's and con's.

Apologies if that came off a bit dismissive - I think I am influenced by some acquaintances who had terrible experience in that area, due to insane real estate market. It was said that external investors driving it up is a big contributor but I don't have any data and am suspicious of those claims.

As a multiple-times-emigrant I can tell you this one thing: no matter where you go, it will be plusses and minuses compared to where you are originally from. Some things will be better, others will be worse. Sometimes much better and sometimes much worse. And there is no way to know this up front you just need to go there and live there for a while before your own personal scorebook can be updated, other people will have an entirely different view on these things depending on their own background, stage of life they are in, personality and so on.

Whatever you will end up finding: it will make you a more balanced person and better able to appreciate the good and the bad of where ever you are in a much more objective way than before.

> you just need to go there and live there for a while before your own personal scorebook can be updated

That seems to be a fact. Nevertheless really interesting to hear other peoples thoughts. Thanks for yours.

This is a question I've often asked myself - albeit from in the US rather than from Germany. While I cannot answer your specific question, I can at least tell you where I landed after asking myself the same question.

> quality of life, politics, social life, social net and tax situation just reached their 30 year low.

I first recognized that this trend was not restricted only to where I live. And so you recognize that this is not about fleeing your location specifically, and is moreso about fleeing a set of conditions that exist in many places and looking for a location that is not characterized by these conditions. The difference I think is important.

Second, I recognized that these conditions are temporal - that is to say that they were not always the case and need not necessarily always be the case in the future. Furthermore, a location without these conditions today is not guaranteed to be free of these conditions in the future. And so any change of location could very well be just temporary - I might need to move again in some X num of years.

Third, when you look at for example Californians fleeing the state and moving to places like Austin, TX - bringing along with them ideologies that are anathema to that of the legacy population, you recognize that it is not just geography that defines the conditions of where one lives, but to a greater degree the people who are living there.

Putting this all together, I arrived at the conclusion that fleeing could at best be a temporary solution and that I would be better served by building relationships in my local community which would produce a higher quality of life for my family. The way you push back on the trend is to re-establish your roots with your people, your nation, and its history. Fleeing will only result in greater isolation and disconnectedness from those around you.

> that allows us to buy / rent a quality house (which is close to impossible in Berlin even making 200k/year [due to neck breaking tax and cost of living])

Just, how? If you have 200k/year, taxes and Berlin's low cost of living should have almost no impact on you. That's like more than than 4 times the median German salary, in one of the cheapest city of the country (rent is of course expensive, but that's mostly depending on the neighborhood). I spent 3 years in Berlin and now live in Hamburg, I cannot imagine that you have problem finding a decent place and living a very comfortable life there given your income.

Anyway, if you do not like Berlin, there is a lot of other places in Germany with different politics, taxes, and social life.

Berlin is not anymore one of the cheapest places to live in Germany, since the rent went up 100% in the past 8 years, it is now the fourth most expensive large city in Germany.

Take a look at Chania, Crete Greece. You can setup a corporation in Greece and work as a contractor for local and foreign companies. That will get you 22% tax. Assuming you make more than 80k / year (after taxes) you'll be on the high-end. Housing is expensive for Greek standards but I'm pretty sure that you will be able to afford it. It is an island but pretty big. Has hospitals, universities, etc. Chania is a small town but 6 months a year is flooded with tourists so appears to be much larger and always vibrant. The sea and scenery in Crete is outstanding. Especially the canyons.

Cons: Infrastructure in Greece is poor. Internet services are considerably more expensive and public transport is not good compared to central Europe. Streets are poorly maintained as well.

Pros: The food is amazing, best you've had. Any kind of crops will grow there and will be tasty. You'll be living next to the sea, you'll be the most "popular" member of your extended family... Everybody will want to "pay a visit" as often as possible. People are pretty friendly, crazy at the same time but really open. The gov is actively trying to destroy the healthcare system but it is still average.

I agree with you about food and quality of life.

Not so sure about the tax rates. Are you sure that 22% is all you pay? I'd be very surprised if this is with the Greek tax system.

Disclaimer: I'm from Chania and live in London the last 5 years and considering the possibility of working remotely.

Hello,

Disclaimer: IANAA, please consult a professional. I can hook you up if you want, with someone who knows these things much better than me (drop a PM via twitter, we're following each other apparently)

tl;dr: Business income generated by partnerships (OE and EE) that maintain single entry accounting books is taxed at a unified tax rate of 22%. In addition, any subsequent distribution of profits is not subject to dividend taxation.

To create an OE or EE you need to have a business partner. EE is better because your partner will have limited partnership liability. The partner can be family but there are some exceptions which I don't remember (e.g. if your wife is a public servant, etc.). The catch here is that you're fully liable in case the company goes bankrupt... But that should not be a problem for companies offering services, especially IT.

The alternative, if you are sole owner, is to create an IKE. Taxation then 24% tax rate + 5% on dividends.

link (in Greek): https://www.startyouup.gr/el/a/58-eythynes-omorrythmwn-etair...

In your case there's an additional benefit. In case you decide to transfer your tax residence back to Greece, you might be eligible for up to 7 years 50% tax reduction.

Sounds very interesting. Especially 5% for dividends tax sounds like heaven compared to the different tax bands in UK. I'll double check with my accountant there. It may have a potential.

I'm just a bit scared of Greek gov. Traditionally it has been proved completelly volatile and untrustworthy. I don't want to get personal liability or fight with the bureaucracy.

Sounds like you should/want just move out of Berlin, not necessarily Germany. Sure, the tax situation and climate is basically the same everywhere, but if you want quality of live I'd recommend somewhere near or between Oldenburg and Emden in Lower Saxony. Once you settled in basically everything east of Bremen and south of Osnabrück will feel like a different country. I basically had the same situation for decades and have been everywhere from north to south and west to east, from small towns to big cities. There's exceptions everywhere of course.

We still consider a place outside Berlin / Brandenburg. Still that does not change the fact, that the current state of affairs here is hard to digest. We also and especially look for a "warmer" and "brighter" region. German winters tend to be hard, not because of the temperatures, but because of the hours of sunlight. However, thank you for the suggestion, we'll definitely check them.

I grew up in the north of Sweden but studied in Mannheim, Germany. Winters in Germany are miserable. If you get snow in winter you will perceive a 2.5-hour day as a lot brighter than it is. Mannheim was like a dystopian crime novel from a 1970s Britain in comparison to my home town, despite almost 4x the actual sunlight in January.

I am not saying "move to north Sweden". Just that amount of daylight is not everything.

Then you must try Freibug: more sun, more happy faces, relatively well connected, and other good subjective feelings.

Come down to Australia. The tech scene is just CRUD apps but quality of life is pretty amazing. Comparable to Switzerland for median income people imo, Switzerland is still better if you are poor but don't think that applies here, since you alone on a Software Eng would put your family to above average income.

Relatively low tax (caps off at 30% for most people if/when the new tax legislation goes through, perhaps not for a Software Engineer though).

Winter in Melbourne hits 0 at the coldest, mostly above 4 degrees though. Summer can get quite hot, high 30s and the occasional 40.

But yeah, I am in Switzerland atm and I find the quality of life similar, really made me appreciate home (Australia) more as well because I thought this was the norm before coming to Europe.

Don't get me wrong we still have selfish self serving politicians but quality of life for most Australian's is high.

Cost of living will probably be higher than Berlin though, Melbourne/Sydney is comparable to Zürich in expense as well, but taxes will likely be lower.

There is no freedom in Australia, the government is doing whatever they want to people. Look at how they handled COVID: rolled out restrictions, punishing their own citizen to a degree any "normal" country/government wouldn't do, etc.

"freedom" is entirely subjective though, ultimately the majority of Australians were okay with quarantine (including myself), when it became useless and unpopular in Victoria, all those rules were taken away. I'd bet the current Victorian government gets reelected in November.

May I ask what freedom do you think Australia lacks at the moment?

Just to put this in context Australia had an election eight weeks ago in which the government was changed. There's any number of reasons for the outcome of the election but this suggests that the governments in Australia are not free to do whatever they want.

It’s like switching toothpaste brands. The illusion of choice.

Not really there were anti lockdown parties, but they didn't get much votes.

Australia has preferential voting so you aren't really throwing away your vote if you vote for these niche parties.

Street arrests for imprisonment in quarantine will take a while for me to shake from my memories of AUS.

Well, if something is deemed to be a law, I'd rather live in a place that enforces them, than not. In my view, you're making Australia look good to me.

If you want a gov that doesn't do anything to stop criminals you should come to Chicago.

Those were the only people being dragged to quarantine camps?

Are you sure about that?

Firstly your "quarantine camp" is actually a quarantine facility. These were setup because people wanted an alternative to hotel quarantine (because these were ineffective). This facility was for travelers not for random Australians.

We didn't have this facility in Victoria, it was only for NT. We had to quarantine at home. A lot of Victorians weren't happy about not having a similar facility because the hotel quarantine that Victoria had in place wasn't as effective. We would go to zero cases and then a some staff would get covid from the hotel and spread it.

We quarantined at home. My family got sick and guess what, they weren't "dragged off" by the Gestapo, they just stayed at home for 7 days.

Fox News isn't the best source of information fyi.

Regardless, Australia is a democracy (I am not sure if you knew this), if these were unpopular, the parties involved will be voted out. Australia has preferential voting so there is no reason why an anti lockdown party couldn't win.

I can't be arsed explaining this, look here: https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/r9zznn/whats_...

Yeah, good luck getting a work visa in Australia... Even if you get it, it costs a fortune and takes ages. It's just not worth even trying, unless you have a _very_ specific reason to do so.

oof I had no idea it was that difficult, I am a citizen so never had to go through the process.

Wages are stagnating. I expect they won't keep up with inflation. But alas, it's not a bad place to bunker down during a recession.

Sorry to hear that you need to leave your country. It's never easy. I left Italy in 2008, in search for opportunities (AWS), then left the US in 2020, back to Italy.

What made you leave Berlin, if you don't mind sharing a bit more?

Finding the right place is always a compromise. E.g. :

1) quality of schools for your son (eventually; he's still super young)

2) VISA, how easy it is to get a permanent resident, and/or citizenship

3) Island close to the equator: the weather is usually not that great (source: lived in Singapore, an island close to the equator, for 2.5 years). But picking the right "type" of place is important, and I suggest you take a 1-month long vacation in 2-3 places, if you can afford it, to "test" it and see if you like it.

Still on this point, I think that most "north Europeans" enjoy the mediterranean area (Portugal, Spain, Italy, or even Greece). Have you tried it out?

Just providing a cautious view: living on an island sounds like a fantasy but in practice it's very isolating, many supply chain issues and it can be hard/expensive to get a hold of items produced off the island

> but in practice it's very isolating

Well, maybe. There are some island towns with lots of community , even expat communities. I actually found it easier to make friends on these islands then in a big city.

But the supply chain issues are big, if you want electronics ( in my case for Panama ), you get on a plane and go to the US to buy them. Same with any major medical care.

I've lived on an Island for nearly five years, hardly ever left for the mainland. Depending on your personality Island life may be 'just the ticket' or indeed 'isolating'. For me it provided the lack of through traffic and quiet that I was very much longing for.

Lack of traffic, yes. No need for a car. Local products and food. Small community. Relaxed and laid back people. Sounds like a dream, right? I doubt, we'll find that, but I am grateful for the point you made.

What were your reasons for leaving the US, if it's something you'd be willing to share?

Not OP but will answer anyway. Lived in the US for quite a long time and left a couple of years ago. Below are just my very subjective opinions.

1. Unhealthy relationship with cars, race and food. Food is bad quality in general compared to other developed countries.

2. Car centric city planning, zoning. Suburb culture.

3. Bad or lacking and underfunded public transport everywhere.

4. No public healthcare.

5. Not very good for introverted people who just want to be chill and mind their own business.

6. People will look at you strange or make fun of you if you don’t like or care about certain American things like BBQ, football, burgers, pizza, etc.

7. People in general don’t know much about the rest of the world, and only consume American cultural products.

8. Unsafe outside in certain parts of the city. "Don't go south of that street" kind of stuff.

9. Trump.

I lived in Scandinavia and certain developed Asian countries, and found that these places fit me better, so that’s why I moved away.

Sorry I missed your question.

Few things:

1) family reasons (father-in-law was sick, wanted to stay closer)

2) had enough of SF. Expensive, dirty, unsafe, poorly managed.

3) was missing some cultural interactions (European/Italian vs “shallower” Californian)

4) tax advantages for returning to Italy

5) wanted to start a new VC firm, thought that non-US became interesting.

Come to Bulgaria - in the south there are mild winters, in the summer - there's a great beachside.

You get some of the fastest internet in Europe for cheap, taxes stand at 10% flat rate, 20% VAT.

Houses in the vicinity of major cities are dirt cheap, compared to your standards (you can probably start off renting for something like 400-500 euro/month).

There're a lot of IT companies, but of course you can't expect the same salaries that you're accustomed to, though if you can land a Germany job that'll let you remote from here - it's a great deal.

Germany is a 1 hour flight away, usually for fairly cheap.

Interesting suggestion. I've been to Sofia once in 2006. The city did not make a very good impression back then, but I am sure, the situation changed a lot. Hopefully to the better. I will definitely look into it, since we do not exclude eastern Europe from our list. Thanks for the suggestion.

Bulgaria is overall best in Europe, but the language is difficult (Cyrillic) and international English schools are very expensive.

You can learn the Cyrillic alphabet in a day. It's other aspects of the language that are difficult.

oOoOO Cyrillic, truly and insurmountable challenge.

I'd look into Bali.

The new five year digital nomad visa means you pay no income tax.

A beautiful villa is $300-600 per month.

You could be working from a beach club with pool, gym, healthy restaurant and tennis court, like Titi Batu https://goo.gl/maps/KGfy6hqscZ2XKrzQ8

Price is very low, a 30 min taxi ride is $1.50, a main dish at a fancy restaurant is $5-7.

The food is the best I've ever had, weather is wonderful, there's surfing and the people are super friendly, funny and happy.

(I'm not sure about health care and education.)

My second choice would probably be Lisbon.

This is over hyping Bali.

Yes you can get a place for $300-$600 a month but it won't be so easy to find anything more than a single room at that price, you may get a kitchen but it takes a bit more looking depending on the area. The kitchen will be outdoors, not like a western kitchen.

If you want a real "villa" with a living room then you should at least double that price, and it will be an outdoor living room, with bugs and heat. A villa with an indoor living room is quite rare.

Taxi's are cheap, 30 min taxi ride is more like $3, using an app, but if you use a local taxi then $10, and it will take 30 min just to go a few kms because the traffic is so bad.

The roads in Bali were not planned and many were just paths between rice fields that have been turned into a narrow two lane road. In many cases a car will have to pull over just to let through passing car past.

The air quality is poor by western standards https://www.iqair.com/au/indonesia/bali

The beaches and not good, especially around Canggu, with black stand and trash and dog shit. The beaches down south are much better but that part of Bali is very over developed.

Australia. My best advice is to go somewhere where your life is worth lots of money. I lived in Ukraine for 2 years and toured around EU for part of that time. My life in Ukraine was worth the price of bribing a cop. Someone is caught after running me over? In the cynical case they’re free for $100. In Australia if someone hits me and is caught, they’re fucked. This is especially important for your wife and son. Put them before yourself in your decision, as I’m sure you already do.

> In Australia if someone hits me and is caught, they’re fucked.

Only if you are white. Your life is worthless if you aren't.

Nice narrative, but no. The law applies equally to everyone.

It's not the first time I hear/ read that. Is there some truth in it?

> Our main goal is quality of life for all of us, so it should be a country w/o cold winters, possibly an island close to the equator.

Australia, Barbados, Bahamas, Cyprus.

Honestly though, you'll be hard pressed to find anywhere as livable as Germany.

The US and Canada are less safe with more violence. Both have worse healthcare and education. The US is attractive income-wise but visas tough to get. Canada is extremely unaffordable. Most EU countries offer similar livability but you might not be able to get by on just English or German. It's a nearly impossible criteria considering how rich, safe and affordable Germany is...

Violence is the US and Canada is highly concentrated in a limited number of economically disadvantaged areas. It's terrible that some people have to live in those environments, and we should absolutely take steps to improve their situations. But fear of violence is not a rational reason to avoid immigration for affluent people who can afford to live in decent areas. My city has zero murders most years.

Lol I grew up in the suburbs of Calgary, itself a midsized and quite affluent city, and there's violence basically anywhere there's public transportation. There were murders in the suburbs. Drug use everywhere.

Look at what's happening this year, basically every city is experiencing a major wave of gang shootings, drug activity, etc...

Europe is much, much safer. Never seen drug addicts shooting up and harassing people on the Paris Metro, it's an everyday occurrence in any major (and some not so major) Canadian city though.

Also it seems to be a concern to OP based on comments.

What's your point? There are good neighborhoods and bad neighborhoods in every larger city. But there are thousands of smaller cities where the risk of violent street crime is virtually zero.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...

Most immigrants/expats will move to large cities because of work and culture. So it's definitely of interest.

I live in a place with basically no crime too, however work prospects outside of hospitality or being able to work remotely are zero.

I would definitely suggest Prague, Czech Republic.

The city is beautiful. Climate is great. Low taxation (especially if you're self-employed). Cost of living is way better than in Germany. Quality of food, healthcare and public services is also very good.

Also, if you don't like the leftist policies, you'll love Czech Republic.

I second this, primarily because I was chuckling the entire time there. Czech is quite funny to Polish speakers [1].

[1] http://wiedza-jest-super.blogspot.com/2018/10/smieszne-czesk...

I'm not from Czech republic, but I know the country pretty well (living in Slovakia).

Absolutely nothing you're describing about the new Czech government is true. They are not populistic (like governments in Brazil or Hungary).

Cambridge, UK

- A solid tech hub so you should have enough opportunities

- Good options for your wife as well to work

- You can also work in London (only 50 minutes by train to King's Cross); I do that

- High quality education for kids

While we don't have kids but from friends who do have, they find Cambridge to be great place to work, live and raise a family. And while you won't get warm winters, they should still be manageable if you look at the other positives.

OP would need a work visa to work in the UK because of Brexit. Low salaries for perm roles plus high taxes make him worse off.

The taxation is just as bad.

Well, if you don't mind (or like) living in a small village, Black Forest area. Housing is very affordable for good standard houses (just bought 170sqm house for 450k with renewable heating, decent energy efficiency). Nature here is awesome, QoL for us just perfect, having farms, forests, small lakes nearby. Kindergarden, Elementary School, Farmer-Stores in walking distance. Expect some cold winters every few years though :)

By choosing your village carefully you'll also get decent public transport to bigger cities (1h by train every hour to Stuttgart for us, 2h to Lake Constance).

For example we were considering this one: https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/133826271 But it was just too big for us. Add another 50-80k for upgrading the heating to a renewable one, some roof insulation and you're at 480k for 220sqm.

I'd expect that you'd find similar objects in like 1-2h around Berlin.

No idea how you cannot find a place in germany with 200k/y. I make about half of that and that's me providing a single income for our family and still saving up some money for the future. I'm not self-employed but with 200k income you should still have more left at the end of the month than we do, and we're doing fine (but we also don't need fancy cars or have fancy expensive hobbies)

> that allows us to buy / rent a quality house (which is close to impossible in Berlin even making 200k/year [due to neck breaking tax and cost of living]).

This is more likely to be due to the tight situation on the housing market with several monopolists than to excessively high taxes.

You might be right. It just feels somehow "off". As I said in another sub thread: I don't really mind the height of the taxes. That would be fine, if infra, public services and the overall outlook were ok. But they are not. At least not in my opinion. And buying a house today meant a loan for roundabout the next 40 years. No option.

It makes no sense. At 200k/year you should easily be able to afford a very nice house indeed. Perhaps op is spending it all on luxury, travel, ...?

What about Israel? The tech scene is amazing, the weather is great and the taxes are lower than in Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Israel). Unless if you don't have Jewish roots, it can be hard to get a VISA.

For quality of life, I would like to suggest Italy, but the salary are terrible low and the taxes are high. Moreover, the probable new government, will make immigration way more complex.

>Moreover, the probable new government, will make immigration way more complex.

Immigration from Germany?

Both Italy and Germany are countries in the EU, hadn't you noticed.

I believe you need Italian ancestry to become an Italian citizen. It's a piece of immigration and not the whole pie, but could've been the intention.

If you are an EU citizen, you can live in Italy without any kind of visa. And also the requirements to get italian citizenship are shorter.

As a matter of fact there is no need whatever to get italian (or any other EU country) citizenship, if you are a citizen of any country in the EU you only need to register to the local authority as resident (after 3 months of staying).

If you really want the italian citizenship, you can ask for it after 4 years of (registered) residency in Italy.

Fratelli d'Italia (the party that is going to win the election and lead the next government) propose in his program to exit from EU, even if not explictly.

Ah, well, then they will propose it covertly?

Like - say - let's remain in the EU for the moment, but let's deprive non-italain EU citizens of their fundamental right to establish their residence in Italy (or in any other EU country).

https://ec.europa.eu/info/policies/justice-and-fundamental-r...

Look here: https://www.fratelli-italia.it/programma.pdf at point 2:

> Ridiscussione di tutti i trattati UE a partire dal fiscal compact e dall’euro.

This seems clear to me, it's just a nice way to say: we would like to exit from UE and Euro.

We don't have jewish roots. So not only visa would be quite problematic.

> Moreover, the probable new government, will make immigration way more complex.

That's not a concern considering OP is European, he can move wherever he wants inside the union.

If the right wing wins the elections they will (probably) tighten rules for poverty immigration from outside Europe.

> the salary are terrible low and the taxes are high.

That's true, but if you can find a well paying remote job and a nice place to live you'll have a good life in Italy. Just don't rely on the state and you'll be fine.

> That's not a concern considering OP is European, he can move wherever he wants inside the union.

What's happened if an Italexit will happens?

If you know Italian politics, you know it won't happen. None of the future candidates has the standing to pull something like this off, without considering that - outside Europe - Italy has nowhere else to go at the moment. Even the popular sentiment is not there as we're already past our no-EU years and even then it was an empty electoral promise.

I am italian :) Do you remember the very first phase of yellow-green government? They had choose as economy minister one crazy old man that already had prepared a plan to exit from euro in one weekend. Luckily for us, the president Mattarella stopped it.

> They had choose as economy minister one crazy old man that already had prepared a plan to exit from euro in one weekend. Luckily for us, the president Mattarella stopped it.

That "crazy old man" (Paolo Savona) is an economist, academic, previously minister for the economy and he is now the CONSOB president, so trust me he is not crazy, he has a better CV than both of us combined, it's just that you disagree and your view of him is overly simplistic. Furthermore I don't see what right the reactionary Mattarella had to veto him, but that's another story.

Nevertheless, even with the best intentions no party/government has the right standing and foreign support to leave Europe succesfully, even the yellow-green government didn't have any actual chance. If we try, the best we can hope for is a scenario a la Tsipras' Greece.

That's why I don't believe there's any chance that Meloni will attempt something like this, and even if she promises Italexit and a majority of Italians votes her for it, the reactionary Mattarella will stop it. No worries, Italy is a democracy only as long as people vote "correctly", and by correctly I mean in a way that doesn't scare the markets.

M5S fan spotted.

And I spotted someone without arguments.

Seriously, calling "crazy old man" someone who's done more in their life than you will in 5 of your lives is some interesting form of coping.

He can be had a lot of good things in the past, but this not ensuring that he has crazy idea right now. Think about Luc Montagner: he was a Nobel prize scientist, but his position about vaccines and COVID was crazy.

And if he want to exit from Euro, he and the parties that supporting him, they must say it explicitly in front of the Italians, instead that be foggy about the topic and prepare hidden plans to be implemented overnight.

I'm not the biggest expert in this area but sounds like Portugal is popular with this demographic. It might be able to meet a lot of your requirements.

Outside of that then the world is your oyster. The world is a big beautiful place and if you work in tech you're only limited by your own imagination.

I know you said you’re looking for a warmer climate, but have you been to Leipzig? It’s a great little city with a ton of history. It has some of the feel of Berlin but is infinitely cheaper and less busy. Just something to consider.

Otherwise I would look into the Balkan coast. Croatia, Montenegro, etc. You won’t be working locally but the quality of life will be great on a remote salary and the culture shock should be fairly minimal for a German.

Currently living in the US (citizen), originally from the Soviet Block, but I used to live in Spain (1 year), South-east Asia (4 years), and Germany (1 year) as well. Have been to other countries as well (Mexico, Dom.Republic, etc.).

From my perspective, Germany is one of the best choices. There are few things that should be in the country you live:

* Laws, police should work (well, to some degree).

* Healthcare should be decent.

* Shouldn't be too cold.

Most of the island/equator countries don't have this option. Once you face a legal issue, you will want to run a country with a law system that, for example, works the different way to locals vs immigrants (like Mexico).

I was thinking about moving from the US to Germany/Netherlands multiple times in the last few years.

> Most of the island/equator countries don't have this option

Singapore comes to mind. I never lived there, and it's not exactly a democracy, but i guess this doesn't affect an expat.

I wonder what life is like in Hong Kong now. Awful no doubt if you are a pro democracy activist, but what about the rest? Certainly no shortage of warm weather too.

1. Every country on Earth has its own problems.

2. If you move outside of Europe, the culture is going to be vastly different that what you're used to in Germany.

While the problems you faced in Germany may get solved, you will run into new problems.

Also, aren't Germans supposed to be well organized, disciplined, punctual etc? Most countries near the equator — despite being wonderful in their own unique ways — aren't exactly known for these traits, so you might end up being frustrated.

3. Did you consider moving to other places within Europe, such as Switzerland, Netherlands, or northern countries like Sweden, Norway? People living in these places seem to be mostly happy.

4. Malaysia seems to fit your criteria. I have lived there for a while. Kuala Lumpur (KL) is a pleasant place that's cheaper than Singapore. People tend to be polite. You can get by with English in KL.

However, I'm not entirely sure about the software developer scene over there though.

5. > but quality of life, politics, social life, social net and tax situation just reached their 30 year low.

I'm sceptical about these things being better outside Europe.

If you do move, I predict you'll eventually have a renewed appreciation for your homeland :)

IMO totally valid points, and of course, we're aware that you can run away from "your problems" only to a certain degree. I also agree, that "renewed appreciation" might wait for us sometime in the future. Would be happy about it. KL is actually a very interesting recommendation. I've been there for a few days and enjoyed Malaysia very much. We currently have the Canarian Islands on the top of our list - it's still Europe, climate conditions are ok'ish and one can live there quite comfortably. Thank you for your opinion.

The Canary Islands do have many nice places, it’s surprising how many different ecosystems one can find there, even within a single island.

Be aware though, that there is an increasing number of unassimilated immigrants. It’s a good idea to research the different areas in advance when picking where to live.

Also taxes in Spain are bad and getting worse, but from my limited experience (Spaniard living in Germany) it ends up being roughly a draw compared to Germany. It might well be that at the higher income brackets it’s an advantage, will be glad to hear about your experience if you end up moving there because going back to Spain is something I think about frequently.

"However, I'm not entirely sure about the software developer scene over there though."

Malaysian dev here.

I think Vulture from Spider-Man Homecoming is a good analogy. It's a lot of people who have been reverse engineering foreign tech. There has been a lot of attempts to "colonize" the area, by Silicon Valley, Rocket Internet, China. Many pull out to fight a war at home and leave behind the tech and expats.

But lack of funding means a lot of jobs are remote. Local companies tend to move their HQ to Singapore and such. Many startups here are ex-Rocket and other foreigners who are good at raising outside money or have deep pockets.

> However, I'm not entirely sure about the software developer scene over there though.

Like getting into a time machine, for the most part.

I am also leaving Germany. Today I chatted with a Berliner who pointed out how loud and unsafe Berlin has become. Months ago I talked with a lady with kids that moved out cos too much drugs in parks. Not surprised to read your story! I am going to the land of tolerance and innovation: the Netherlands!

If i was moving away from Germany because of too many drugs, the Netherlands wouldn't be my first choice.

It doesn't affect daily life much unless you live in the south or one of the big cities.

Netherlands has higher taxes than Germany, there's also wealth tax and soon some others. But foreigners can deduct their taxes by 30% the first 5 years (the 30% ruling)

Basically OP can move to these places without visa (excluding UK). https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c6/38/10/c63810cb1a63e6529835...

Certainly the lady had a point, as you do. Berlin is not representative of Germany in almost any respect, or?

Sure, there is a open drug scene in parks in Berlin, but there is no such thing in Stuttgart or Munich. Historically the germans travelled to Holland to buy their drugs and it's still the main drug distribution hub in europe.

It's the main distribution hub, but for usage as long as you stay away from Amsterdam it is really not bad. It's also the primary Ecstasy manufacturer for the EU, this is just a trade thing.

I struggle to understand how come Dutch people allow such levels of drug production in ther soil.

What is there to understand? Drugs = money

Such a small country full of illegal production points. I guess there is sufficient data to find them, I am sure others with geospatial experience share this thought.

One point is that Rotterdam is one the major ports in the world, also the wealth has always come from internal trade. Great infrastructure, near to the bigger consumer countries and also not so densly populated rural areas where you can hide labs.

It's interesting: Why is everyone moving to Berlin in the first place? It is not a great city and yet it's compared to Germany as a whole.

This startled me 10y ago when I arrived to Hamburg: why was I only aware of Berlin? I think due to the (failed) international projection of the great diversity of cities and towns in Germany. Hamburg is a very nice place, and greatly unknown outside Germany.

Interesting thread, many insights on a topic where wisdom is hard won.

That said, I read OPs complaints about polarization and taxes, and I wonder if Latin America might address some of these issues?

(Slightly tongue in cheek)

Your status as a foreigner will make people more forgiving of your ignorance of local political issues, and also interested when you make comparisons to foreign perspectives (especially coming from Europe, which they consider the model of civilization).

Tax evasion is a way of life here, you could declare as little or as much as you like of your foreign income, which combined with the lower cost of living, would mean you could put away a sizable portion of your monthly income.

The quality of life may surprise you in some aspects, provided you are willing to think strategically about your lifestyle, ie where you will work / shop, play and with whom. The food can also be excellent, with a greater abundance of fresh produce, which in Europe often tends to be optimized to withstand prolonged shipping and storage, as well as limited volume/higher price.

And when you eventually decide you have had enough, because the conditions can be trying (constant horror stories about violent home invasions, rife inflation, far fewer accessible /and/ safe getaway destinations, and not being able to consistently get a decent flat white) you can return and declare your savings as foreign income tax free.

> That said, I read OPs complaints about polarization and taxes, and I wonder if Latin America might address some of these issues

Thank you, that somehow nails it. Some countries on our to-be-checked-list are in Latin America. A personal minus is, that both of us don't speak spanish or portugese.

Nevertheless we will dig deeper. Thanks for your opinion.

Check south of Brazil (Santa Catarina and Rio Grande do Sul states) Many cities have Germany roots from immigrants and you can handle, at the beginning, only using German/English. They are very safe too (for Brazilian and Latam standards).

Check the city of Pomerode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerode

That checks everything you want: cheap land/houses, low taxes, mild winters and hot summers. Amazing beaches at 1h driving. Small city where you can connect with people in the neighbourhood.

Negative: very far from Germany. It will take you 1 day to travel (1h flying to São Paulo + 12hs to Europe, plus the waiting time and going to the airport)

Well, if living in a small town is an option, I suppose Germany and Canada also have those and they would have similar pros and cons a small city in Brazil?

Most brazilans, even from these states, would give a kidney to live in Canada or Germany. Even if only for living a safer place where you can walk at night with your phone etc.

Belize (formerly British Honduras) is an English-speaking country in the region.

The UK but outside London. Beats germany in openness and pretty much all other eu countries in tech and pay. Housing is an issue in london but england rural and the other countries in the uk are quite within reach. The tech scene is an absolute leader in europe, startup funding is quite easy to get and career options are plenty. The government is a joke but if you ignore those goons youll be fine.

> possibly an island close to the equator

Assuming you have German genetics, climate and sun living near equator might be very rough on you if you're not used to it. Spain or California might be at far as you want to go.

what are your top 3 issues with berlin? germany and berlin always seemed to offer great quality of life. i’m from europe too. how can you not afford a house in germany with a 200k/year salary? for less than 500k you should be able to find something nice? even if you pay 50% tax. and you have 2 incomes.

in the US real estate on the east and west coast is insanely expensive and 1.5MM plus for a very basic house. nothing fancy and lower quality than in europe.

so the cheaper real estate is in the midwest where there is little infrastructure and very little access to the cultural systems like exist in europe.

i am on the west coast and love it here. but it has been extremely stressful and i will probably not be able to afford a house until i win the lottery or the startup game or maybe a very high up FAANG position. europe is just a different pace and stress level.

i will add to this that professional discrimination of women in europe is much less than in the US IMHO. important if your wife is working.

The price for small houses (often in terrible condition) around Berlin hovers in the range of 700-1000 T€, so if you don't have a lot of capital it can be hard. Banks like to charge freelancers a premium on the interest rate (as they can supposedly lose their income anytime, which often is just an excuse to extract more money from them...) or outright refuse to give them a loan unless they can provide a guarantee (e.g. an existing house to take as collateral), so definitely not easy.

But things might finally turn around a bit with the interest rate hike and looming recession, if you have some capital you might be able to grab some good real estate soon, at least if you don't have to be square in the center of Berlin (which will definitely stay expensive).

Totally with you regarding all points you made. I believe in a horrible recession not only in Germany but also Europe lasting for longer than just 2 or 3 years. I also do believe, that the totally overheated housing market will crash very badly, which might open up interesting opportunities, once it happened. Still, all the other problems remained. However, thanks for your thoughts.

Personally, I don't think housing prices will collapse unless there are mass bankruptcies (like 2008/9 in the US). Inflation is going to eat some of the housing prices gains, but people will just not put their house on the market for lower prices unless they have to.

I don't think many people will sell when their real estate agent tells them that they're house is now worth 200k less than last year (or the neighbor's house that just sold), they'll just keep paying the mortgage and wait for the market to improve.

I'm with you with a big European recession. But I'm not sure about a big enough crash of the housing market, I think they will do whatever to keep the price up

wow, 700K ... that is totally insane if that is actually true. years ago i visited the pankow area and it was dirt cheap. this was maybe around 2009 or so. so that is only a good 10 years ago.

Portland metro still has very nice houses for much less that 1.5MM

I've thought about washington state, but that is more expensive. no state tax ... so maybe that is why real estate costs more.

Oregon has no sales tax

yeah that is one positive

Malta might be an option due to climate, english and lots of foreigners living there, but i have no idea about taxes. Cyprus also.

European countries are actually a very good option. Moving there is no problem at all, since we simply can move anywhere in Europe. It would have to be somewhere in the south tho, since we're looking for a much more relaxed lifestyle. We've never been to Malta or Cyprus so far, but both get onto our list. Thank you!

Have a look at Greece, I've found it extremely welcoming and reasonably affordable.

I am greek but i wouldn’t recommend Greece given the poster’s requirements for multiple reasons. Greek islands are not busy in the winter, except the big ones (Crete, Rhodes) and also English is not a first language as in Cyprus or Malta. Tax is big, depends on the government snd changes every year. Cyprus is more stable and with way lower tax especially for contractors.

That's what I'd say if I were living in Greece ;)

But no, you are right.

:+1

malta seemed like a really busy expensive hard to get around place with tourists last time i considered it. interested to hear from founders who have lived there for a few years at least.

You are more or less describing the Canary Islands.

You can live there talking English only, and there will be probably opportunities of work for your wife (that should however learn to speak at least functional Spanish).

Remote working for you, however, I don't think there is much occupation related to your field.

I lived on the Canarias for 3 years way back in the 90s. Loved it, but I guess it is totally different today. Nevertheless, especially Gran Canaria is on top of our list right now. It's still Europe, moving there is super easy. Weather is fine. International school should be there and a flight to Germany is a little more than 4 hours. So far sounds like an option.

I loved the Canary Islands ( I was only there for 2 days though ). Seems like it's big enough to have both big cities and small towns. And the food was amazing.

I know that being a tourist in Canary Islands is fun but is it a good country for a German to move to permanently? Does it have the kind of infrastructure and healthcare Germany has?

There is quite a bit German community there incl doctors, lawyers etc. the big hospitals are also okay, although the local youth is fleeing the island.

No remote working for CS/software/hardware?

Are Spanish taxes lower than German?

Generally speaking yes (a little), but as always it depends, should be lower for low/medium income but higher for higher incomes.

Canary Islands (though part of Spain) are a "special territory", and have some different tax rules from Spain:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territori...

VAT is different and there are some subsidies for (say) establishing a company there if you employ locals.

I just want to point out that it's probably not the best choice to move anywhere near the equator.

Because of global warming? Then I'd like to point out that the biggest changes in climate have been in the arctic and temperate regions so far, and that's likely to continue for some time. Yes, of course places that are already hotter are closer to becoming unlivably hot, but there are quite a few of places in the tropics that really aren't that hot; for one thing temperatures are more stable around the year. I live at 17 degrees South and even in the height of Summer it hasn't gotten above 34 degrees Celsius here, and that's very rare, usually in February (Southern hemisphere Summer, you know) midday temps are around 32 degrees.

That's my thinking. What we witnessed over the last 30 years are more and more local maxima and extremes in regions, which typically have very mild weather. I spent significant amounts of time in a number of countries near the equator and do not recall such changes as we currently witness in Europe. But given the fact, that I have absolutely no expertise in the field, I might be totally wrong.

You can look up various predictions. Depending on which scenarios come true, large parts of Earth around the equator can become simply unlivable (i.e. worse than Persian Gulf countries now, where life outside of air conditioned buildings and vehicles hardly exists) during our lifetime.

Rising sea levels will mess up a lot of equatorial island regions. Recommend doing research.

Do you mean climate change wise or that there's really not a lot of well developed countries along the equator or something else?

climate change.

Countries that often seem idyllic on paper often have some rather bad downsides - definitely do your research without blinders on. I've done small stints(long vacations, not work) in a couple island places that seem nice, but healthcare is terrible, white people perhaps are treated differently, etc etc. And even in places with better-ish healthcare, a lot of times there's some resentment from people like us driving up their house prices and such.

Are you considering the US? There's a few states that would meet your criteria of weather. You'd really want to talk to some people privately regarding what you want and politics - California and Florida could not be further apart WRT the people, beliefs, and governments.

> meaningless to get into the details

The problem is that your stances on these impact recommendations. Are you taxed too high and think the social safety net costs too much?

Or do you need the social safety net and are complaining about rich people not paying?

Good point. Actually we're not complaining about our high tax rates. It's just that we do not benefit from the state no more. As someone running my own business since 1999 and work as a freelancer, I never paid into the german social net. So I have no expectations there, have a private health insurance, take care for my pension by saving and investing and cover most risks with private insurance. That's fine, because it was my choice. The point is, that from a certain income your income tax get's crazily high. Combined with other taxes everyone else also pays I end up working for taxes around 70% of my time. That WOULD be ok, if the state / government at least provided me with working infra and services, if kids care would be ok'ish (as promised), school standards were high (they once were) and infra like public transport, railway and air transport were not foo'd up beyond repair. I can accept poor conditions, if my taxes are low and I can save / invest for my pension. I can also accept good conditions and therefor high taxes. In Germany it's high taxes and bad conditions ... at least for us.

>In Germany it's high taxes and bad conditions ... at least for us.

You're well off, you're earning a lot, you're privileged enough to be able to travel often and to a lot of places, some quite far away. You're in position where you can basically freely choose where to live next, by the sound of it.

One of the foundations of Germany is the principle of solidarity and that owning property bears social responsibility. That means that people who earn and possess more than others may and most often do have to contribute more to society than others. Or in simple terms, as you earn and own more, you're benefitting less from "the system". Just want to make it clear that this is by design..

You'll most probably find a place that will make your personal life objectively easier, i.e. taking less money from your paycheck.

I honestly hope you will find a happier life!

While I agree with you on a fundamental level, this social contract is currently in the process of being eroded. A household with 60k gross income is part of the top 20% in terms of income. In a lot of parts in Germany today, this is insufficient to accumulate property if you want to have kids.

Pensioners are taking an ever bigger cut of the cake, both due to their rising numbers, but also relatively speaking. As a relatively young person with a good salary, it becomes ever more attractive to just emigrate, and this will lead to a pretty bad cycle Germany is ill-prepared to deal with.

"politics, social life, social net"

I think it will be hard to recommend depending on your exact positions on these.

I think it will be difficult to recommend a place with low taxes and robust safety net. Generally the taxes are what Pay for a safety net.

On that note, the US could be an option (southern states) for you since the taxes tend to be lower than other developed nations. The safety net is fairly robust, but only applicable in many cases if you're destitute. The caveat is that politics suck here, but they suck basically everywhere.

> "politics, social life, social net" > I think it will be hard to recommend depending on your exact positions on these.

We're both educated and open towards a liberal, future oriented society. Same goes for paying taxes, since the "overall standards" in Germany are still very high. Nevertheless, the last 10 years spit society, family and friends. Hardly any healthy discussion culture, you're either on the one or the other side, no matter which topic - immigration, taxation, climate effects and wheather change ... you name it. We travel a lot and realized, these topics are discussed in many other countries too, but in Germany it recently came to a point, where government, news and media and even people and parties you trusted your whole life made more and more just short-sighted and dangerous decisions. You can ignore all of those for a long time, sell your TV set, don't read newspapers, stop using Twitter and Facebook. But the moment you witness, that your hard earned and very high taxes are spent on everything but meaningful things, it's hard to stand it no more. We both look for peace of mind and quality of living - which to us especially means escaping crazy black/white discussions, which completely omit all tones of gray. Don't know, whether this makes any sense. But thank you for your thoughts.

I'm German living on the US west coast for close to 15 years now. What you are describing sounds a lot like the problems we are having here. I do wonder if that's how it now is in most countries. I always thought of Germany as having lower pay but higher quality of life. Very disappointing that that's eroded. I'd be very curious to hear where you end up, since it sounds like we are sharing similar criteria.

I guess, many people share our current point of view, and yes, it's not only the german society which is affected. From a german perspective looking at the US or UK makes me feel very sorry. The leading countries of the free world seem to be on a decline, and that makes me very sad. However, the situation I describe, is only what I personally perceive. It's in no way objective, so Germany might still be in a "good shape" seen from whatever angle. It's just that we're looking for a better place to live, but did neither consider the US nor the UK for above reasons. Dank und Grüße

> which to us especially means escaping crazy black/white discussions,

But the decision to leave instead of trying to engage and improve things is pretty black and white mentality in itself, isn't it?

> But the decision to leave instead of trying to engage and improve things is pretty black and white mentality in itself, isn't it?

You've got a point here. Yes, it's giving up. And to be honest, we both gave up. But since we're responsible for our little one, we still try to make the best of it, hence want to restart somewhere else. But I get your point. It's just that we both spent all of our energy over the last 25 years to improve things in all sorts of different dimensions and simply ran out of "mana".

Can you be more specific about what status quo political position you are against? I do not want to render any value judgements.

I am just thinking, because I grew up in Southern Europe, I have the opposite opinion to you regarding this. I think Germany is much more open to "skepticism" than you believe. Where I grew up people differentiating from the mainstream view are labeled as idiots and are in a very tiny minority, whereas in Germany, they go parading in the streets every other month and make up 25% of the population...

I am not the OP however I think he means that there are certain topics which place you in an either "with us" or "against us" group. In many cases, you're either AfD or a Green (kind of). I don't think he is talking about gay people, which clearly in the north Europe have more rights. It has more to do with the public tv telling you how to think.

Out of experience, it's only about the people you meet, however foreigners will be the ones giving you the less politically correct opinions: they'll just share their opinion. But again, it depends on who you meet and in which context you speak about things.

For me this has unfortunately to do with the fact that there is not a healthy debate about things, there is always this fear of being a Nazi or whatever shit they did in the past, which frankly I don't care about.

If that's the case then maybe instead of emigrating (which comes with a new set of problems) you may want to consider simply scaling back your ambition to 'improve things in all sorts of different dimensions' because you and your s.o. are just two individuals against an immense backdrop with huge inertia.

The people we look up to because they are typically painted as the agents of social change tend to be the ones who were there at the right moment: they were catalysts rather than major forces and their relatively small contribution caused a much larger force to become unlocked. But for that to happen that force already has to be there, for each and every one of those there are thousands (millions?) who tried the same thing at a different point in time and failed.

I admit, I like your point of view very much. If you are not already, you'd make up for a very good leader. In the end we did not yet make a decision to leave. We're juggling different ideas and that thread here opened up a new pathes to think through. The unknown unknowns so to say.

Thank you.

The decision to leave is a decision to leave. It is not a ‘discussion’, black and white or not. What is your point exactly? Could you spell what you are insinuating here?

I feel you, but I'd recommend taking a step back, breath in, breath out, look at the government budget, and realise that the plans you may not agree with your government only add up to 1% of those "hard earned taxes".

Somehow, in the era with universal access to raw data discussions seem to never have been so polarised. But I'm afraid that's the same anywhere :-(

I still there's a few places better than Germany to live, even more if you've started a family.

> and realise that the plans you may not agree with your government only add up to 1%

I wish, I could afford your optimism. :) IMHO Germany is getting deconstructed rapidly, and if one of the leading European countries suffers the breakdown I expect, I see nothing but dark clouds on the European sky. Europe and especially Germany as part of the free, western world need to be leaders trying to solve the ecological and economical challenges ahead of us. But when you want to solve such a huge number of problems, it's not wise to burn down your whole country beforehand.

I'm not sure where would be a good place. It seems most places have some degree of us/them mentality, media biases, and most definitely wasteful spending. One place to maybe check out is Switzerland.

I'm sorry you are in a shitty situation, but you have to understand that most taxes are being paid by people like you (middle-class job with wife/kid and mortgage, can't risk it and move or avoid taxes). You are correct about the 71% tax pressure (and it might be even higher). You are also correct about the weather (north Europe's weather is shit, depressing and lacks vitamin D).

But all of this doesn't matter. Remember, you are a man with a wife and a kid; and you are kind of limited because of that. (governments know that too, and that's why you are paying most of the taxes of society).

My opinion: Your problem is hardly moving to a different place. Any place is going to treat you the same because of your situation (exceptions happening). What you need to do, is figure your way out of the system and then branch remotely into a different system. You can then live in a country where you do not generate your stream of income; and not be too worried about their rules.

Say the following: You can land a remote job with $200k/year salary. Your wife is not quite interested in pursuing her career (ie: okay with any reasonable job). The UAE could be a place for you (the weather is hot though). You could afford a villa, vacations, good healthcare, private education for your kid, save money, and trade without consequences.

Of course the UAE could be not the place for you. But there are many other places to pick from, especially with a German passport.

Also: If you are leaving because of taxes, do not settle for any place that has a tax higher than 0%.

Move to Atlanta, Georgia, or Florida, or the Georgia coast if you can swing mostly remote work. I just met a German in St. Simons, a resort area on the Georgia coast a few hours from Atlanta. He was thrilled with the neighborhood (for his young kid), schools, etc. The Atlanta economy is booming, real estate is still affordable, and if you can swing mostly remote work working on the coast and hopping to the office in Atlanta a few times a month would be very doable.

Malaysia. Close to equator with lots of great islands with fast internet. No winters. Lots of tech jobs, especially remote. Easy tech and retirement visas (but very difficult citizenships). Income tax capped at 30%. Really nice houses available at about USD250k. Free/cheap medical costs. English is everywhere, even the constitution is written in it.

If you want islands with good internet, Redang has a really nice view and fresh fish, but no other activity than snorkeling and BBQs. Langkawi is not as beautiful and more developed, beach is a little polluted, but it's a major tourism port with lots of cheap chocolate and alcohol.

Indonesia, Thailand, and Singapore are also great alternatives. Indonesia and Thailand has nicer islands and cheaper lifestyle, a little less English language and lower stability.

Singapore has a higher quality of life overall, and is a tech hub of SEA. Probably doesn't meet the cheap housing requirement.

Not sure I can add much to the answers below but will try.

You are not going to be able to increase your quality of life above that of Germany by moving closer to the equator, at least not by most general quality of life metrics.

However, it sounds like you are specifically looking for the combination of sun + lower cost. In that regard I’d look at the following. Keep in mind you will likely end up moving back to Germany eventually from most of these, be it because you require health or elder care or certain educational opportunities for your kids if you have any.

Panama, Nicaragua, Ecuador, Costa Rica, Malta, Malaysia, Bali, Spain & Baleares, Portugal.

If you’re willing to compromise on the “sun factor”, I would take a closer look at the following:

Austria, Slovenia, Estonia, Czech Republic, South Korea, Taiwan.

It sounds to me that you also want a country where you get by in English and/or German easily. That should narrow down the first list above quite a bit.

Interesting. I'm currently in the process of moving back to Germany from Australia. I spent the last 8 years in Sydney and I'm kind of disillusioned about immigrating to another country. You basically just change one set of problems with another set of problems, it's a tradeoff.

One thing to consider when immigrating to another country is that you won't have a social net immediately since you (presumably) don't have family/friends here yet. For Australia you're also required to have private health insurance when you're on a temporary work visa, which you most likely will be if you decide to come here. As a german you're not eligible for medicare but you can get it once you have permanent residency.

To get a work visa in Australia you need to find a sponsor or have a profession that is promoted by the government (e.g. medical doctors). For a sponsor that basically means you need a job with a company before you even get here. I came here on a working holiday visa and found work that way (working holiday visas are limited to people below the age of 30 without dependants).

Don't get me wrong Australia has a lot going for it, beautiful country, nice weather (winter is like ~15 degrees celsius), nice and friendly people, paperwork is super easy compared to Germany, good job opportunities (as a software developer).

However!

Australia is big and far away from everything (people always underestimate this), literally every holiday trip requires a flight to get anywhere. Even within Australia. Flying to Europe requires minimum ~2 days of travel time one way!

Housing is ridiculously expensive, I was on AU$ 130K annually and was not able to afford a house, the required deposit is basically impossible to obtain in a reasonable amount of time. And since it is so big you're not living in a rural area and commute to a larger city (unless you like driving 100+ km one way). What makes matters worse is that most companies seem reluctant to let people work from home 100% of the time, it seems to have settled on something like 50% home and 50% office. Renting right now is brutal, prices have gone up and there is competition like crazy (10km circle around Sydney CBD). Also be prepared to strip naked (metaphorically) to get a rental place, real estate agents want to know everything and need minimum 3 friend references and 2 work references (at least they were asking for that last time roughly a year ago).

Lately food prices have gone up quite a bit, my normal daily groceries bill was around AU$ 15 and is now around AU$ 25.

Both the UK and especially the US are going through a rough spot. I would look into Ireland (not so warm climate) or English speaking Asia (maybe insane property prices in tier 1 cities).

I've read lots of Irish people currently complaining about the housing situation there. Perhaps it's not as bad as Berlin, though of course it depends on one's wages. However, I live in Munich where prices for buying accommodation are absolutely ludicrous compared to wages.

One suggestion is the Isle of Man. It has very mild winters. It has very low tax. There are some tech jobs. If you don't mind living on a quiet small island without much to do, with a lot of grey skies, it could be an interesting possibility. The one disadvantage is that housing is relatively expensive.

UK and Ireland have mild winters compared to Berlin, not that I'd suggest moving to the UK (for other reasons).

> 30 year low

You actually want to retire in Germany AND THEN move wherever. You are too invested in a single country and its benefits system to give it away just a few years before they are due

As a selfemployed I do not get any pension at all. That's the point. I'd be in for a tax based pension system and I'd happily pay for it. Unfortunately public pension is prohibitively expensive and a pretty bad investment. You're better off investing your savings yourself. So there's no point in waiting for me.

Most countries still pay out partial pensions if you live there for a number of years and reach their retirement age after moving to some other place.

Really? Which are those countries? If you never pay into public pension, how can you get a pension then?

If you never pay into the system, then obviously you don't get anything from it. But if you do pay in, then my understanding is that they'll send you your pension money to wherever you live. That's how it works in the EU, UK. Depending on the country, there can be minimal number of years of work required for the pension to trigger, but AFAIK in the EU they're counted across the whole Union and not per-country.

BTW this is not a verified information so please verify all of the above yourself if you intend to depend on it in any capacity.

Malaysia or Singapore (island on the equator).

Spain Balearics or Canary Islands.

All the expats I've talked to in Singapore (which is 5+) from Europe and US complain Singapore is too small and doesn't provide enough entertainment. So they get bored and leave after 3-5 years.

I used to live in Southeast Asia and learned you can never truly feel at home due to visa rules and the homogeneous culture.

I loved my time there and encourage others to go, but I'd caution if you're trying to throw down roots.

What kind of entertainment? I find entertainment in Singapore is very 'manufactured' and prefer the UK. People don't have to be limited to Singapore, travelling to other Asian countries is very cheap.

We've traveled to Malaysia and Singapore. Climate-wise both fine, we're just not sure, how easy it is, for Europeans to establish there. Spain is an option, but especially Gran Canaria is on top of our list, I lived there for a while and really enjoyed it. Thanks for your recommendations!

You can try Philippines. Foreigners can own a condominium or buy a house if you can find a loophole or establish a corporation. English speaking, thriving software development scene.

Nothing like moving abroad for a while to appreciate good old Germany. I centered my life abroad and I'm not likely to move back but I'm getting nostalgic ;)

This is a bit rant-y, and some of this may be US-centric but I think it will apply to equatorial countries as well. I think you should totally move abroad - if you stay for only 1-2 years you'll not want even to move back, after 5-10 years you start to appreciate Germany, wait 10-20 and you'll miss it.

All that is to say, you should definitely try to move abroad and see if you can build a life there. At the very least it will absolutely enrich your life with all these new experiences and recast how you see your own country/society. And if you like it and want to permanently settle, even better! Also, with risk there's usually opportunity, I would think equatorial islands may have demand for your wife's skills e.g.

So now to the ranting... the high taxes imo (at least partially) allow for:

- reasonable equality and social equity through redistribution,

- low crime and violence (also social cohesion),

- excellent "broad" education and opportunities (i.e. not ivy league-level education but very good, affordable and low competition for many),

- generally more "care-free" lifestyle (social safety net, imo sensible regulations, medical system, education system are all less stress-inducing)

Conversely:

- Taxes: you pay lower taxes, but then you spend a lot of money on health-care and education. Sure you can cut corners (esp. on health-care when you're young) but then you start worrying about going to this or that doctor or getting this procedure or not.

- Education: get ready to pay 20% extra for houses in "good school districts" or spend a good chunk of salary on private schools (which is probably what you're looking at outside the US). The best-of-the-best education is going to be quite a bit better than the average in Germany, but most of German education is "good" and free. And then private school means your kids grow up around mostly "rich kids", personally not my ideal situation. Also, families in the Bay Area are interviewing with their 4-5 year old kids for the "best" kindergardens/pre-schools, I see very high pressure early on. Everything is so competitive, but especially "top-tier" education.

- Equality/Equity: Living life at the top is much nicer than in Germany. But the downside is that there's going to be parts of town that you probably don't want to walk to/through at night - depending on your chosen region you may not want to walk, period, or take public transit (if there even is public transit). Fortunately, your really nice house will probably be in a gated community so you automatically avoid half the population (/s).

- High salaries: generally you work a lot more, there's a reason so many people dream of retiring to an island. Fewer vacation days or no structured vacation at all. Less time with kids. Though that wouldn't apply when working for a EU company probably. Great for a while if yo plan to move somewhere lower-cost-of-living eventually and can save up, but for most people the high-paying jobs are in high-COL areas so quality of life isn't even strictly better (yes, remote - but I don't think it's more 5% even here on HN). Sure you now drive a Tesla, but you're still not saving a lot and spending all that money on your rent/house, kids, groceries, and "entertainment" - just on a "higher" level.

- Regulation: depending on your location get ready to never drink tap water because the water supply is under/un-regulated, and e.g. get ready to do your own research on food additives, vitamins+supplements and so on because they're largely unregulated and a free-for-all. There will be no more great renters-protections, consumer-protections. Again, this is fine for a couple years but eventually starts to grind you down.

- Groceries/food: You might miss some of the stuff you grew up with, not at first but eventually. Also, again cost - German groceries are ridiculously cheap. $5 mozarealla ball? $5 bar of chocolate? $10 for paper towels/toilet paper? Also, a lot of stuff is just "different" and not what you're used to. Every time I go back, I go to Aldi/LIDL and smile when I've bought my weekly groceries and it's less than $200-300. Yes, we spend about $600-1000 on groceries alone a month for a larger fam ($600 if you go do Trader Joe's and don't splurge, $1000 if you order Whole Foods and have it delivered)

- Housing: You will probably get a lot more "size" for you money, but quality may not be what you're used to from Germany. I've seen huge $2M homes with only single-pane windows ($200-300 on heating every month in the colder months) and foundations that shift, luxury $1.7M condos in SF that have water roof/siding leaks within 10 years of being built and so on.

Thanks for taking the time and putting all those points together. I see the con's and I am sure, that's nothing what we're especially looking forward to. But especially the pro's got totally eroded over here. At least from my point of view. There is hardly any reasonable equality, the social divide is IMO mostly based on that. Low crime and violence ... once was. We live in one of the "better" parts of Berlin, nevertheless I fear the day, we have to send our son to a public school. Education was good, became worse but is not catastrophic yet. Getting a university degree is (nearly) free and that's fine. Still, the level of real education in public schools beforehand is getting worse and worse. Social safety net does not exist for me being self employed but the "last resort" Hartz4. I still agree on sensible regulations and the med system.

I might paint a too dark picture, but that's what I've experienced in the last 20 years, and those things are the drivers behind our plans to leave the country. However, your points are a great source of information for everyone who might consider leaving the country. Thanks a lot.

I'd like to say again that imo there's not much downside to trying. It may end up not being better in all the ways you'd hoped but surprise in so many other ways. It will most definitely be a great experience that will shape and enrich your lives.

Another option might be to maybe just leave Berlin for a different part of Germany or move to another European country. Portugal is very nice, lower COL and I've heard of techies moving there. It wouldn't make a huge difference in taxes but general cost of living should be lower and afaik no visa and work permit issues.

I would recommend moving to Germany elsewhere. Berlin is certainly the worst place in Germany, Dresden or Leipzig are much cheaper, and have extremely nice quality of life attributes.

w/o cold winters/island: On an island you are on an island. Lots of germans moved to the Baleares, Canares, Portugal, Spain, or some richer Caribbean island, such as Kitts and Nevis or Bahamas. But generally they prefer New Zealand over that.

The housing stock in New Zealand and prices for energy unless you're building a passive home from your own specs (which will cost 3-5x more than it would cost to build in EU or US due to materials and labour) will make New Zealand winters (a low of around 1-3C in most of the country) worse than what you experience anywhere else.

Most New Zealanders relied on wood fires until the 90s. Many still do. Most homes are drafty, which is okay during the summer - unbearable in the winter. New Zealand had to supplement older people and retiree heating costs during the winter, because too many old people were getting sick and dying.

Your income will be about half of what you make in the EU, and about a quarter what you'd make in the US. Your cost of living will be higher than both.

For OP, I'd recommend a cheaper part of Europe. You're still within flying distance from friends and family, but you can likely rent, buy or build property that fits your needs during the year.

The north part of Australia might be more suitable if that's something you don't care about - wages are stagnating in Australia, property prices are beginning to plateau (in some cases come down) - however materials and labour are still ridiculous right now.

Namibia is worth a consideration, especially if you add the option of remote work.

Quality of life and safety is relatively high. Due to the low population density many issues that other countries have do no escalate in the same way. The country has a high level of development and is peaceful/stable.

The only challenge is getting a residence permit but if you understand the goals of Home affairs, it is possible. Ask if you want to know more.

Namibia is on our want-to-see-the-country-list. We both enjoyed a number of african countries quite a lot. South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mosambique and Swasiland we traveled already. Of course travling through and living in a country are two completely different things. Nevertheless, we will have to re-evaluate our current list of possible countries and put Namibia on it. We left out Africa especially because of the political instability of many countries and the connected dangers for caucasean type like us. Thanks a lot for your recommendation.

the trick to living in Europe as a software engineer is to work remotely and live in small town / village outside of big cities with overpriced properties and people of questionable morals and goals.

special achievement for tough lads / lassies is to move to dodgy eastern countries like czech republic, croatia, romania to save on tax. forget about doing the grown up stuff in english there and when your child gets sick or needs education you need to fly right back to daddy germany.

portugal and ireland also have tax incentives but I dont think the quality of life, services or health care are comparable to germany.

all in all since brexit, interesting and realistic solution seems to be switzerland, but it has its own quirks.

in my opinion you would do better to stay in Germany but move to a more sensible location than Berlin. Get a piece of land where still possible. Germany is a safe bet and will be last one to crumble of the EU states, on paper...

Quality of life in Portugal is amazing if you have internationally sourced income - local wages are low. Effective tax rate for Freelancers is 15% + social costs. Private healthcare is superb and remarkably cheap, public healthcare good for emergencies. Infrastructure is amazing, beautiful beaches, superb food & wine, lovely climate, widespread English, Work Visas very easy to get, Large vibrant Friendly Expat community, what more do you want? I moved to Cascais from UK 5 years ago because of Brexit and I love it here.

Unfortunately in Europe there aren’t many options if seek reasonable taxation.

The challenge with Islands near the equator are the natural disasters.

Have you considered Asia, or even the south of Europe? Portugal maybe?

I have a friend who moved from The Netherlands to very small town in France. He was mostly seeking quality of life for him and his family.

I might consider Hawaii or Massachusetts. School especially would be excellent in the latter, when time comes. Progressive and liberal politics. Cold winters unfortunately but at least the gas does not come from a hostile superpower.

One other thing about most US locales, is property taxes are relatively high, and they fund the local government (i.e. your town - they pay for police, school, etc.) which is something a lot easier to control than state or federal government. I've known fellow engineers who ended up investing time/effort to join the local town government and have impact on how that money is spent.

Hawaii is on our list as well. Unfortunately it's very hard to get a working visa for both of us. Otherwise it would be a great option.

I've never lived there myself (just visited) and I'm not sure to what extent they would meet your politics/tax criteria, but Australia seems to have some happy ex-pats there, and New Zealand.

I've personally wondered about Melbourne or somewhere for myself at times...

We strongly consider New Zealand. Reasons are manyfold, but what from we know from friends living there, it's close to European life style but with an intact nature and mostly mild weather.

Oh, well, if you completely forget the last 2 years.

Georgia, the country in Europe but outside EU. It is actually a tax haven.

Unfortunately, also the country on Putin's short list. You do NOT want to be one day waken up by artillery shells.

Fiji and Mauritius sound great for you, as do Trinidad and Tobago

French Polynesia (English probs though)

Dominican Republic is easiest for Visa

British dependencies/territories in the Caribbean?

You could get an answer by doing some basic research...

These are all great for the chill, exotic, beach going part, but considering OP has a 6 month son - things like kindergarten and schools are, let's say, subpar in all of these places.

I'd go with Australia or New Zealand that I think gets you the best of both worlds.

God I so relate to you and I just hope it all works out.

Move to Cyprus and work remotely.

English-speaking, Mediterranean weather, no tax on dividends, and a pretty good expat/international scene.

With clime, I think Azores are a good spot, and since they are part of Portugal, you'll still remain in eu

Just move out of that shithole berlin and than reevaluate. Join SAP and move to waldorf for example.

> Just move out of that shithole berlin and than reevaluate.

:) get your point and love it. As someone born and raised in Berlin the decision is everything but easy. Love-hate-relationship I'd say. But if we leave, we also want to escape the current, very heated "social mood", which makes Germany not an option. But SAP is actually quite a good hint. Thanks!

SAP, like, the company?

I think, yes, that's what is meant.

correct

Don't forget about tropical diseases when you are closer to the equator than the southern U.S.

Southern US is like 100 km from equator?

Portugal. DM if you want to discuss.

> This post sounds like it’s satirizing miserable privileged tech workers.

It's more someone working since the age of 16. Working hard for an average or more than 13 hours a day for nearly 30 years straight. Earning above average is IMO totally justified, but I accept your opinion.

> You get child care for free in Germany.

Ha! Try to find a KiTa in Berlin. Even if the law says so, it does not mean there's enough supply!

> Tax is high but Berlin is still the cheapest big western city there is

It once was. If you belong to those who were forced to move into the suburbs with all the associated cost, your point of view would be quite different.

> It’s also beautiful and diverse.

I think we can agree to disagree. As someone born and raised here I've never seen the city in a situation worse than today.

> I earn less than you and get by fine, also know many couples the same.

Congrats. Do you or your friends have to make up for their own pension yourselfes?

> Yeah it’s changed over 30 years - name a place that didn’t.

Change is good. It's the only constant. Unfortunately it changed to the worst. But you can only see that, if you know, how it's been before.

Thanks for your thoughts anyways.

And there I am in Texas wishing I could move to Munich for a while.

Come on over to Greece and take a break.

Summers are insanely hot. Bureaucracy and inefficiency of getting things done is whole another level compared to northern parts of Europe. You have to know a guy who knows a guy. Greece is 33rd in world corruption index between Saudi Arabia and Malaysia while Germany is 10th. Walkability is not a thing in the cities, especially if they want to take long walks with their baby in stroller.

People are friendly though and nature is beautiful. And some of the food is amazing.

My two cents:

- Getting things done in Germany is equally problematic. Bureaucracy exists there as well. - There is large part of the public sector that works better than anyone gives them credit for. Same with public schools and healthcare. Greece produces twice the number of scientists compared to the average on OECD countries, you can't do that without an at least "good" education system.

Unfortunately corruption is rampant and the current gov only made things worst on this front.

Singapore is the answer.

For affordable housing? As a foreigner? I somehow doubt it.