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Turns out speech about working conditions is protected. You can't be fired for sharing your wages, for instance.

I would not be shocked to hear that this results in a lawsuit over protected concerted activity.



It is quite a stretch to say that the letter was about working conditions.

Working conditions is things like working hours, your physical environment, your responsibilities [1]. The SpaceX letter was basically "Musk is uncouth, and we don't like that". A fair criticism, but nothing about working conditions.

The text of the letter can be found at [2], if anyone wants to judge for themselves.

[1] https://definitions.uslegal.com/w/working-condition/

[2] https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/16/23170228/spacex-elon-musk...


Did we read the same letter?

The following passage is one of many about workplace behavior, which therefore is part of working conditions:

Define and uniformly respond to all forms of unacceptable behavior. Clearly define what exactly is intended by SpaceX’s “no-asshole” and “zero tolerance” policies and enforce them consistently. SpaceX must establish safe avenues for reporting and uphold clear repercussions for all unacceptable behavior, whether from the CEO or an employee starting their first day.


This really does not fall into working conditions, in the legal sense of the word. "Musk is an asshole because of how he tweets" says nothing about the working conditions of SpaceX.

If the letter alleges that Musk directly harassed employees, that would be entirely different. But it doesn't; it merely says that Musks behavior in the public sphere is unpleasant (again, that's fair).


Let's clarify definitions, shall we? Quoting from https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/working-conditions I find:

Working Conditions means the conditions under which the work of an employee is performed, including physical or psychological factors.

The things that that letter discusses affects the psychological factors of the work. Committing to making people feel included, defining what toxic behavior will not be accepted, and so on.

Your linked definition includes in working conditions, "...all existing circumstances affecting labor in the workplace." This fits with the definition that I gave - the behaviors that you have to put up with from coworkers affects labor in the workplace.


The argument you're advancing here, though it may be popular with some kinds of lawyers, is tantamount to arguing that any discussion at all could be considered about working conditions. Once you start trying to classify the personal tweets of the CEO as "working conditions" you're starting a fast track to eventually having working conditions be stripped of its legal weight, as it'll turn into just another rule being exploited by woke culture warriors in ways it was never meant to be used.


> Once you start trying to classify the personal tweets of the CEO as "working conditions"

This is way too reductionist. These aren't just "Musks tweets", they are directives about employee policies that are publicly stated, but not private enforced (because, to the author's criticism, they have no strict definitions). Furthermore they have clear (or at least implied clearly) repercussions: "don't behave they way we want to or you're fired".

> all could be considered about working conditions.

Actually, I think what the author is asking for is clarity about working conditions, not necessarily the working conditions are good/bad - they're just ambiguous.


Is there anyone asking for anything in a workplace that you wouldn't call a "woke culture warrior"? Using that kind of language marks you as pretty disingenuous to the argument.


You are attempting a reductio ad absurdum by saying that since the potential consequences of the rule you outline leads to a result that you don't like, said rule cannot actually exist.

This is backwards. There are lots of rules out there which I'm sure you dislike. Therefore your dislike of this one is irrelevant.

And I say that despite agreeing with you about how it might be abused. And despite wondering whether the people calling for more diversity and exclusion in this letter may be the kind of people to abuse it that way. Rules are rules, and we should try to apply them fairly, especially when applied to people we dislike.


Haven’t we already seen that the SEC thinks Musks personal tweets hold legal weight?


The SEC does, because at least Tesla states that they are an "official corporate communication channel". Though Tesla was pressured (by who?) to do so because shareholders were complaining about how they should interpret his tweets.


Only those that relate to disclosures involving Tesla.


> Once you start trying to classify the personal tweets of the CEO as "working conditions"

Maybe those companies shouldn't include statements like this in their corporate filings then:

"The Twitter account @elonmusk is considered an official corporate communication channel."

Especially when Musk is tweeting from it things like changes to remote work policies.


Unequal enforcement of company policies is not working conditions?


No.

Forcing a trucker to drive 20 hours straight is working conditions. Refusing to install proper lighting in a warehouse is working conditions.

Having a policy saying "don't be an asshole", and then enforcing it in a way that is perceived as unfair, is not working conditions.

If the letter had directly alleged that Musk or other leadership was abusive towards the employees, they would have a case. But just saying "we thing Musk is an asshole, and we have a no-asshole policy" is not protected speech.


I don't know what to tell you, every legal training I've ever had has said that capricious application of workplace policies and playing favorites is a good way to land oneself into an NLRB discussion. And that the NLRB, juries, and courts tend to bias towards workers.


The NLRB only has jurisdiction when the matter concerns labor organizing. This has a specific definition and does not automatically cover any collective action by employees like open letters or petitions.

Many employment laws just create causes of action for civil litigation. I.e. they define types of harm for which the employee can seek compensation in the courts.


That isn't what they think according to https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-right....

Very specifically for this case, they protect the right of employees to talk to an employer about improving workplace conditions. With or without a union, and with or without any interest in unionization.


When you hear the term "safe" used in the woke-cancer whines, you can be sure that employee was a real cry baby and anchor on the rest of the team.


If retention and recruitment are impacted, then working hours become longer. If company values are enforced internally but publicly the CEO is acting against those values, then it becomes harder to understand what someone might be disciplined for. The connections are, imo, there.


You can 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon anything to make "connections" like that


Then more directly, the letter specifically called out unequal enforcement of company policy. That's direct.


Company policy does not apply to the owner of the company.


Commerce Clause vibes


> If retention and recruitment are impacted, then working hours become longer.

This statement is false in the general case. If the contract says 40 hours, I'm leaving after 40 hours, and if you want me to stay longer I better have a large share of the company. Your inefficiencies as a manager are not my problem as an employee, unless I'm also a shareholder.


> If retention and recruitment are impacted, then working hours become longer

or deadlines just get moved out


Speech about working conditions is indeed protected. Nothing in the letter is about working conditions.


> many employees continue to experience unequal enforcement of our oft-repeated “No Asshole” and “Zero Tolerance” policies.

Sure sounds like a discussion about workplace policies and enforcement to me.


It's fascinating to me how many comments seem to be defending the workplace culture at SpaceX, and outright dismissing the letter in a hostile manner.


I don't think anyone is defending the culture, just saying that this letter is not about workplace conditions and is not protected, no matter how much you wish it was.


Hmm, I think that’s at the very least debatable. If we had a liberal court I can see how they’d go for that. Right now? Not so sure.


No. Elon Musks tweets are not workplace conditions anymore than your choice of owning a cat or dog is workplace conditions.

You can dislike something and also not think it's illegal.


His tweets are official company communications. They are every bit as relevant to workplace conditions as would be owning a cat or dog inside your office.


They have said that official company communications can come from his Twitter account. They have not made the claim that all communications from his Twitter account constitute official company communications.


You, a stranger and not an employee of SpaceX or Tesla, come across Elon Musk on the street while walking to get a chili dog. He looks at you and goes "That is the most hideous shirt I have ever seen" and walks off.

Is that workplace conditions?

Also, oddly enough, "official company communications" is not workplace conditions. You do not have a legal right to discuss company communications!


I think many here are getting sick of workplace activism and the self-involved crowd pushing it. I didn't become an engineer to deal with their bullshit. I just wanna work on interesting problems. If I'm unhappy I'll switch teams or get another job.

There is an increasingly troublesome number of people entering the industry who simply don't enjoy working hard. I think every company would do better to fire them.


> activism

I take it you are in a country that doesn't support freedom and basic rights.


Quite the opposite. I'm in the only country that does.


They are either invested, malicious, or stupid.


Ok


Honestly, I think you have a point. It would go back to what the reason was for termination. SpaceX has indicated that the terminated employee's actions went beyond simply writing the letter.

I do not take company statements like that at face value, as they have their own interests to protect. However, it does leave the possibility that termination was not related to statements about working conditions.

The former employees may have a case here.




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