This is assuming that your trip starts and stops exactly next to the train station and that there is a non-delayed train available precisely at the right time. In practice that's not the case and those time add up quickly.
Car trip will look like:
1. Travel from start to location (3:20)
2. Find parking (0:5)
3. Walk from parking to location (0:10)
Total time of 3:35
Your train trip will look like:
1. Go from start to train station (0:20)
2. Wait for train (0:10)
3. Train to Berlin (1:50)
4. Train station to location (0:20)
5. Wait at location because there was no better train (1:00)
Total time of 3:40.
It stil might be worth it to use the train, as you can work/read in the train which you can't do in a car.
But for the train to be working it needs planets to be aligned: start location must be within reasonable distance to train station; end location must be within reasonable distance to train station; train travel speed is significantly faster than cars; train schedule is aligned with desired arrival time. If any of these conditions are not met, the train option does not work
I don't think anyone living in a country with reasonable public transport and uses it actually thinks that that is how it works.
I get the feeling that there might be a whole lot of "it sucks in my country so you probably have a bad experience too" replies here (not yours as it's quite a clear illustration of details people might miss), and I would almost immediately assume it'll be mostly people from the US who are car-bound for their transport needs.
The idea that you can life a nice and productive life and go places as you please without dring a car is very foreign to some people. Even the idea of switching it up and having some work commute by bike or bus seems like a 'poor people thing' to some people. It's weird.
I, too, have some questions about your 1:00 waiting due to "no better train being available"
I am familiar only with Italian and German trains (i.e. use these regularly, but occasionally I also used trains in/to Austria, Luxembourg, Hungary).
You seem to think that in order to go to Berlin by train someone living, say, in Rostock, first goes to the station then looks when the next available train departs.
In reality you can just use apps on your phone to get not only a timetable of departures but also find out how long it will take for you to get to the station using public transportation.
Example: this Sunday I go visit friends near Hamburg. I have booked a 7:08am train already (with iPhone) and on Sunday morning, depending when I am ready, I can walk to the station (25 mins) or look what bus to take and at what time from the nearest bus stop (5 mins from home).
The parent's point is that if you actually wanted to get there at any time other than exactly when the 7:08a train arrives, say because you have an appointment at a set time, then you're going to end up having a wait somewhere along your journey because the train wasn't on your ideal schedule.
For example, if that train arrives at 10:08a, say, and the next train is the 9:09a which arrives at 12:09a, and you had an 11:00a appointment, you're going to wait 45 minutes at your destination because you couldn't arrive closer to the target time.
> The parent's point is that if you actually wanted to get there at any time other than exactly when the 7:08a train arrives, say because you have an appointment at a set time, then you're going to end up having a wait somewhere along your journey because the train wasn't on your ideal schedule.
If you're travelling a significant distance by car for an appointment at a fixed time, don't you have to allow extra time for traffic?
(Depending on just how much traffic there might be) if the roads are "normal" you might well end up arriving at the destination 30 mins or even 45 mins early?
In fact the variance for that very example - Hamburg Berlin - is much higher by car. Finding a parking spot in Berlin can be very tough, and you end up cruising around the neighbourhood for 10-20 minutes. Add another 10 minute walk from the parking spot to your destination.
Traffic can vary, too, and you want to allow significant padding for traffic jams. If I drive from Hamburg to Berlin I’d start 3:30h before my appointment at the destination. With the train, 3h is probably realistic, although there is variance as the train only goes once per hour.
It’s more extreme on the distance Berlin Munich, where taking the train is vastly faster. At night you can max out your car and drive an average speed of 200km/h down the Autobahn (although it’s extremely tiring to do that for hours), and then you can make the distance in 4h by car. During the day, 6:30-7:30h is more realistic. The train takes 3:45; add to that an hour for public transport on both sides.
It’s different when you don’t go to the big cities. You can take the train from Munich to a ski resort in Austria, but it will take twice as long as the car, and you need a cab for the last few kilometres. But nothing beats the train when travelling between large cities in Germany (not even flying, unless you have a private jet).
Yeah, if I was going far, I'd allow extra time, for sure.
I don't actually live in Germany, so I don't really know how frequent these trains run.
I have really only one example, where I missed a train from Frankfurt to Bingen, and had to pay a fortune for a cab ride because the next train was 3h later and I'd miss my planned day.
But if that's a common frequency, the train can work out to be inconvenient, because you will have only a very few times you can plan on without building in lots of waiting.
If you're going a far distance with an hourly service, it's probably convenient enough for most things, provided you never miss a train.
While if you use a car you are at the mercy of "baustelle" (roadworks) and constantly risk to have slowdowns (e.g entering a major city at critical times).
Until we have Star Trek teleports no single method of travel is "absolutely best". But dismissing trains altogether because they do not run at your own convenience looks a bit of a strawman to me.
I do not own s car anymore, but when it is really the best option I rent one. But I also check first if a bus or train gives me reasonable guarantees to reach my destination in time (if they do, they are also way cheaper, especially since COVID, at least here).
I don’t see the accounting for the quantized arrival times imposed by a set schedule over the chosen times availed by a private car to be “dismissing trains [or airplanes] altogether“ but rather to be applying an appropriate factor to the door-to-door transit time.
Exact same situation as train proponents [correctly] pointing out the additional time needed for airline security theater or transit from city center to airport adding to the door-to-door time for airlines, making airliners slower than trains for some city center to city center trips.
Framed like this it is surely a much better argument. But just applying a flat 1-hour "penalty" to train transit is a bit of a strawman: railway companies do their best to give you sane options, so that if you are, for example, a commuter, you can get at your destination before 8am.
I believe that the main difference in our viewpoinylts is this: people who drive a car tend to reason and plan as if the car is the most appropriate solution, and would not even think of checking fir alternatives unless special circumstances apply.
People who learned to rely on public transport do the opposite. As I wrote already: I do not own a car, but I can drive, so if trains or buses do not offer viable options I just rent one.
(The problem is that post Covid rental cars prices hiked, at least here, so the convenience in being more flexible gets often trumped by higher costs).
Several years ago, I was traveling to Warsaw, Krakow, and Prague with another colleague from the US and one from Spain. It was interesting to observe both my US and Spanish colleague start looking for flights from Warsaw to Krakow and look at me sideways to suggest that we’d take the train.
We did, and it was vastly faster, cheaper, and more pleasant that flying, but it really showed the power of default thinking on people.
It's fun once or twice a week. If it happens almost daily (maybe even multiple times a day) it get's much less enjoyable and way harder to meaningful fill with work.
This is the biggest thing to me. When I’m on a train, I can text, call, and even get some work done. When I’m driving, it’s actually quite dangerous to attempt those things; and not only for me, but the other people driving around me.
In theory you can, but reception is notoriously bad in german trains. They know about it though and are constantly looking for improvements, e.g. the change a few years ago to allow for free wifi, or developments of glass technology. Links in german.
Yeah, I can testify that cell coverage is pretty bad, at least in the northern parts.
ICE usually offer free wifi and the signal is a bit better, but still not really comparable with what I get in the North of Italy, for example.
Dutch trains almost all have wifi, it isn't fast tho and then, on busy trains, you get to share it with 100 people which is rather hilarious. Most people have cellular plans now and coverage is better than one would want it to be.
edit: it is funny how youtube thinks the person on this IP address is waaaay into trains.
Same in the U.K. a colleague drove me up the motorway a couple of days ago and I was in the passenger seat sshed into a server for the trip and didn’t have any issue with dropped connectivity.
Can’t do that on the train, there’s a ton of “not spots”, even excluding the tunnels.
It’s crazy the phone companies don’t have better coverage on the train line.
I'm not sure what "Wait at location because there was no better train" means?
Are you massuming a 3h40m trip for a specific time-based appointment? I think the use case of this kind of train is more similar to a flight with one or more nights at destination, so that the specific arrival time is not that important.
> I think the use case of this kind of train is more similar to a flight with one or more nights at destination, so that the specific arrival time is not that important.
OP was explicitly comparing car and trains, not flight and trains.
If that's the case, then we are more in the context of a "city trip", and Hamburg -> Berlin might not be the most representative case. Something along the line of Hamburg -> Rome is more accurate as people usually like more change of scenery. Flight from Hamburg to Rome is 2:20 and train is 19 hours. Even accounting for airport wait time, the difference is ridiculous.
The issue for passenger transport with rails is that it's not good for small distances as cars have the advantage because of the added convince/flexibility, and for long distances, flight is better due to speed.
For freight, however, train is amazing as these extra hours don't matter too much and the reduction in emissions is massive. The issue is that there aren't that many dedicated cargo flights. Most cargo revenue come from transporting freight in the holds of passenger jets. So moving cargo from flights to trains does not lead to a direct reduction in CO2 emission since those planes are going to fly anyway.
> Most cargo revenue come from transporting freight in the holds of passenger jets.
Is this really true? DHL, FedEx, and UPS (and Amazon?) all operate their own freight aircraft. There are also contract freight operators. Most major airports have an entire area that is exclusively for freight operations.
Yes some freight does go in the holds of passenger jets, but is it "most" or even close?
Yes, and during the pandemic when passenger traffic cratered passenger airlines started putting additional cargo in the passenger cabin. China started cracking down on that recently though (unsure why). Freight is generally far more profitable than passengers.
This comparison (Hamburg to Rome) is silly. The thread is about the 9€ ticket, which is only valid on regional trains in Germany and the point is to save money for consumers and save the environment by replacing car journeys with train journeys. Bringing in a red herring like a cross-country trip helps no one.
OTOH, you make it seem like it's super easy to find (free?) parking anywhere near your destination, I'd guess the unknowns about that even out with the blanket assumption of '1 hour to get wherever you wanted to really be'.
Let’s say you have an appointment at location 15 minutes away from train station at 9:00 and your train arrives at 7:45. You will have to wait for 1 hour and probably spend this time unproductively and maybe even at extra cost (e.g. you choose to get a cup of coffee and a sandwich in a restaurant nearby).
Yeah, if you plan your appointment at a place 300km away willy nilly without checking the train schedule and if you plan your car drive in a way that you dont plan for any congestions leaving Hamburg, on the Autobahn, entering Berlin (good luck!), then yeah: The car is more expensive, more tiring, and slower. But get this: Instead of having an hour you can spend at your destination to your liking, you get to use that extra hour driving your car! Congratulations!
Sorry but that has to be the most contrived and ridicilous statement I've ever read. And this is coming from someone -- me -- who owns two cars, lives in Berlin and practically never uses public transportation.
In many cases you are absolutely right, the appointment times can be adjusted according to train schedule, destinations are nice places where you can find something to do in between etc. Public transportation in Germany in most cases is better than cars (I do not even have driving license for that reason - never needed it). Still, the calculation logic is right: when you travel somewhere to be there at certain time, you need to include some buffers in your planning, both for trains and for cars. Every 4th train in Germany arrives with delays and not every appointment can be planned for your convenience.
If I have an appointment, I'll rather take the train, be rested and have enough time in the train to prepare for the meeting. all the trains have wifi and power.
In Germany the trains are also faster than cars on the Autobahn, even if I theoretically could drive 180km/h. All my travels from Dresden to Berlin, Leipzig or Frankfurt are faster by train than by car. ICE only.
Now with this offer, the slow RE trains only, it's slower than by car, but still more attractive. Just if I have a meeting far outside a big town, and bad connections (say the bus only goes every 30min) and I have to walk 10min, I'll take the car. For my next travel to the Leipzig Kanupark I'll take the car, but all other business and leisure trips are by train. For the last 3 years already.
> even at extra cost (e.g. you choose to get a cup of coffee and a sandwich in a restaurant nearby).
That's the pessimist's view. The optimist wanders around and randomly finds a place they would never have found otherwise. I mostly do the first. Sometimes I find something truly interesting. Sometimes not, but I don't think the unproductivity you mention has harmed me. (Yes, occasionally I absolutely have to hack something, so I search the first place where I can use my laptop. But I try to avoid that in all but the most familiar cities.)
1. Such train may not exist.
2. Train at more convenient time could be fully booked.
3. Train at more convenient time could be significantly more expensive.
Yes but if they catch you it cost like 60€ or so and legally counts as uh trespassing I think not that the BVG will bother to sue or anything.
So for locals it's still a grate deal.
And the tickets show how long they have been active, so activating them when you see they check might not pass at all (depending on the person checking, the often let it pass anyway).
But I have seen multiple cases of Ticket controlling sub-contractors acting out of line against Berlin citizens you could describe of "looking German" ("looking German" from the POV of a potential racist person, not mine POV).
I also have seen people acting out of line against the ticket controlling sub-contractors, including in the way the contractors claimed the black person did. But also worse. Like to a point where I was surprised the contractor kept calm and half expected needing to step in. Because many people would have lost it if "insulted" to that degree.
The increased tension between contractors and citizens in recent was the reason they changed their policy recently (for some time? still ongoing? idk.) to no longer have the subcontractors wear civil clothes even through it means they will miss more people without tickets. I also have seen more security people (which job does not include controlling tickets, luckily this is kept separate).
Germany is a relatively high-trust based society, so in Berlin you don't have turnstiles like other cities. However if you are caught riding without a ticket, the fine is 60€ for the first 2 offences and goes up after that.
This is assuming that your car trip starts and stops conveniently with available parking right at the point of departure and parking at the point of arrival, and that there is non-delayed traffic flow precisely at the right time. In practice that's not the case and those time add up quickly. This is also assuming that with a car you never have surplus times, such as filling up gas, taking breaks from driving yourself, and let's not forget about maintenance, while we're at it.
Don't get me wrong, I often prefer the car, but that post is comically one-sided.
Trying to find parking on the sidewalk can be impossible at times, but in most cities and towns in Germany, there's always a private parking lot nearby (max. 10 minute walk to most stuff).
Worst case, like in the outskirts or smaller towns, you can just park in the parking lot of a big supermarket for 2 hours for free.
You are making the assumption that it's one person traveling. If I imagine me traveling with my family, then the tradeoffs would look quite different:
1. There's only one driver in the car, so all other passengers could still work/read during the drive.
2. The cost is split. With three kids and two parents, the cost would be 45 EUR vs 50 EUR traveling with a somewhat fuel efficient car with an internal combustion engine. This is only fuel price and deprecation of the car is not accounted for and would be more.
3. The stress of switching trains multiple times with small kids, putting clothes on in the cold, making sure they don't bump into people, etc can totally negate any "you don't have to navigate traffic" benefits.
4. You usually don't travel from main railway station in city A to main railway station in city B. Getting to your actual destination can also be a slow and complicated affair with public transportation, especially in conjunction with 5.
5. Luggage can be problematic. If you are traveling with children, moving multiple heavy suitcases from one train to another while simultaneously taking care of kids can be a nightmare.
As someone who generally prefers public transit to driving (especially in a foreign country - a lot will depend on where you're traveling. I usually travel solo but think in general it would scale pretty well. Of course if your kids are poorly behaved then it'll be more of a challenge.
I think having some familiarity with the infrastructure can go a long way into making the trip easier. Knowing where platforms are, which stations are easier to transfer at, etc.
2 – Don't forget road tolls, parking, and surprise maintenance.
3 – The most consistent "pain point" I've seen with transferring is simply walking from platform to platform. I can only think of a handful of stations that I'd actually consider difficult (e.g. BART's Millbrae and Madrid's Atocha station).
4 – Again, parking. In most big cities you're not going to roll right up to your destination and park.
5 – My experience has been it's as difficult as you make it. Hell I saw someone bring a refrigerator on Muni. Some places like Japan have low cost courier services that entirely negate the need to bring luggage with you. Just drop it off with the courier at the airport and have it sent to the hotel or nearest 7-11. In other places you'll find luggage racks or areas on the trains. Alternatively, pack less stuff. If you're traveling by car and need to use a rooftop box don't forget the hefty fuel consumption penalty.
I travel by train a lot here in the Czech Republic and I have racked over 1 million kilometres by rail in my lifetime.
My most consistent pain point when changing trains is the uncertainty about the delay and whether the connecting train will be waiting or not, how far is it going to be (it may be on a very distant platform and platform use isn't consistent even on the same railway station, much less in different regions) and whether I will have to run even with a heavy baggage and/or pain in my knee (which I sometimes have).
Delayed direct train just means you'll be a bit later in your destination. Delayed train with a missed connection may mean 3 more hours in the railway station or even a necessity to stay overnight in a place you barely know.
With rail, as usual, it depends. Connecting between bigger cities is easier, some countries make things particularly difficult. Most of my train experiences are on metro or commuter rail, most of the longer trips I've done were direct. German (DB) stations were generally easy to navigate and staff were universally dour, but travel itself was relatively painless. Berlin (Mitte) to Amsterdam airport at night? No problem. UK? You learn to just lean back and think of England. The Tube is great and relatively easy to route around closures, GWR is an expensive fucking shit show.
I've spent more time flying than doing long-distance rail trips and yeah delays happen which is why I pick connecting cities carefully. I'd much rather be stranded in New York than Atlanta or Houston.
But cars bring all sorts of uncertainties too. Let's say it starts snowing and you don't have chains (oops) or the roads are closed. Yep you're gonna get stuck for a while.
This past Wednesday I went out to what I always thought of as a semi-remote beach (about 25 miles away from home) to catch the sunset. After that was said and done my car wouldn't start. If I walked a mile back to the beach in the dark I might've been able to find a spotty signal and text for help. I decided to sleep in the car, and when the sun came up I walked ~6 miles to the nearest state park and then another mile or so to the ranger station. About half way there I got a signal for long enough to get cat pictures someone texted me the night prior, but for some reason my carrier decided to block outbound messages "Unable to send message - Message Blocking is active." The park wasn't open so I wandered around until I found someone who offered to give me a ride into the nearest town with a tow truck. A few hours later I was in the tow truck, on a two lane road, on my way home and traffic in the other direction was at a standstill. Someone had run their car off the road and judging by the number of cars waiting they'd been waiting for a while. I took that in stride but that would've been hell with kids. If I didn't know that area was low crime I would've had to schlep all my stuff into town.
> 5. Wait at location because there was no better train (1:00)
Berlin-Hamburg has intercity trains approx every half hour, so on average this wait will be approx 15 minutes. Which could be filled with some useful activity, like some shopping… equivalent to going to the gas station for drivers.
Driving on Autobahn sections without speed restrictions, especially when I do let loose and go past 160 km/h, requires so much concentration that I usually turn the stereo off.
There’s an old joke that BMW engineers couldn’t understand why they should add a cup holder.
Maybe it was just very cleverly and elegantly hidden? Saw some Doug de Muro review, I think it was of a BMW (or could have been some VW group brand), recently and he was all "I bet 90% of owners don't even know they have this cup holder here!"
Also remember we’re talking Autobahn here! Gmaps assumes upto 130kp/h… depending on your car and driving style you could drive 200kp/h++ (at least partially when there’s no speed limit)
-> I’d challenge the 3:20h driving time, would probably more like 2:30h in ideal conditions
Having travelled Hamburg-Berlin for more than two years: A 130 km/h average is very optimistic on that route unless you travel in the middle of the night. Large distances are speed limited to less and large chunks are 2 lanes with lots of traffic. Not to speak of construction sites and traffic jams.
I usually took the train and would constantly beat my colleagues taking the car significantly (1-2 hours)
I’ve driven this route many times, and it’s quite unrealistic to expect you would ever get much higher than 140km/h on average, except during the night from 00:00 to 06:00 or so. Since it’s mostly 2 lanes, you’ll almost always have people slowing you down to about 120-130.
The ability to do that will be highly traffic dependent. In practice, driving that fast when possible doesn't shave more than a few minutes time off the overall travel duration from my own experience.
Jep, one minor traffic jam and all the cars you passed at 200 kmh catch up to you. As you do with all those that passed you at 250 kmh. I have that experience multiple times a week. Generally driving at around 130 kmh seems to be a sweet spot, and is by the way the recommended speed on the German Autobahn. It is also much more relaxed. Not that driving fast isn't fun, it is, but going fast in straight lane is among the easiest things to do.
Car trip will look like:
Total time of 3:35Your train trip will look like:
Total time of 3:40.It stil might be worth it to use the train, as you can work/read in the train which you can't do in a car.
But for the train to be working it needs planets to be aligned: start location must be within reasonable distance to train station; end location must be within reasonable distance to train station; train travel speed is significantly faster than cars; train schedule is aligned with desired arrival time. If any of these conditions are not met, the train option does not work