I find that if I get eight hours of sleep at night, I can move mountains. But if I only get 7.75 hours of sleep or less, my eyes feel tired all day and I'm only half as productive. I've never understood why there is such a marked difference between eight hours of sleep and almost anything less than eight hours. There's something chemically going on inside that I don't understand. The problem I'm having now is that I can get a good five or six hours but I wake up after that fifth or sixth hour and can't get back to sleep long enough to get that ideal eight. This problem is seriously affecting my career and I don't know what to do. I do do moderate to vigorous exercise five times a week but that doesn't always help.
I have a theory that there are two variables that impact my subjective feeling of having a good night’s sleep.
The first is whether I wake up at the right part of the sleep cycle. For you that might mean 7.75 is when you’re deeply asleep while 7.5 or 8 might be a better time to wake up. Crucially for me it also means even if I get more than eight hours I still feel like garbage if I wake up and get out of bed at the wrong part of the cycle.
The second variable is how much sleep I get. I might wake up in the right part of the cycle but if I got 6.5 hours of sleep I start to drag, especially in the afternoon. That’s where avoiding activities like eating before bed or drinking alcohol helps. That’s also where doing a 4-5 mile run during the day (not too close to bedtime) helps because I’m more likely to maintain sleep for a full eight hours.
I had sleep issues for years until I discovered that I'm allergic to dust and pollen. Washing my sheets every few days, vacuuming them with a small hand-held vacuum cleaner before sleeping, and using an air filter in my room dramatically improved my sleep.
Other things that have interfered with my sleep in some form or another are vitamin deficiencies, exercising way too much at once, caffeine late in the evening, alcohol, and anxiety.
Despite all the research, I haven't found screen time to have any impact at all on my sleep. I sometimes play the Switch in bed right before I crash, and it doesn't seem to affect anything.
Edit: oh, another thing. A bit of music or a podcast really helps me fall asleep faster. They help me turn off all the work-related thoughts in my head and focus on something entirely different.
Similar issue here except for damp. I live in a very humid country and the increase in my sleep quality once I started to run a dehumidifier in my room at night is crazy.
I used to wake up sneezing at 4am regularly and now I never do.
This is very much me to a T, even including waking up far too early and having difficulty getting back to sleep. It's absolutely bizarre how it seems like difference in 15-30 minutes can have such a negative effect. Hope you can solve your sleep issues!
Get analytical with you sleep. Did you drink caffeine after 12pm? Make a log of foods you eat? Are you practicing good sleep hygiene? Cortisol levels can cause issues with sleep cycles.
6 hours of sleep are enough for most people physically and the rest is more tiredness than any reduced ability. It's possible the other negative effects you are experiencing are mostly placebo.
That site is half hypotheses made up by the author, and half irrelevant things like "this study proves that you won't die sooner if you cut 2 hours of sleep". Nothing in there indicates that sleeping less won't lead to less physical ability.
I only skimmed for references after the comparison with junk food, hunger, and cavemen. It truly sounds like they are making this up as they go along.
For example all-cause mortality in the linked there biggest meta-analysis is actually lower at 6 than 8 hours (graph[0]) and only slightly higher than at the optimal point. This isn't the same as general ability but it's likely correlated and all the evidence seems to point in the same direction.
But beauty is essential for a lot of people in the workplace in 2022, and you can’t get beauty when you wake up naturally after only 6hrs. It’s sad but it’s a reality, as a manager in IT.
I find that making sure the room is still fairly dark in the morning makes it much easier for me to fall back asleep in case i've woken up "too early".
I also started sleeping with earplugs in the last 2 years or so to make sure morning city traffic noises don't wake me up.
And lastly, don't reach to the phone to look at the time, better have a regular clock which doesn't have all that extra stimuli.
I find sleep masks help me to get the full 8 hours. Without being able to sense light, I guess my body assumes it should still be asleep and I usually don't wake up early. It doesn't work every time, but it works often enough for me to try to stick to it.
Just chiming in with a hearty +1. My numbers are slightly different though. If I get 7.25 hours of sleep or more, I'm feeling great. If I get 7 or less - depending on how much less - tired eyes, headaches, trouble focusing, worse strength/endurance, etc. And the hilarious thing is my brain seems hell-bent on getting exactly 7. It's hard for me to get that extra 0.25 hours. :|
There are a number of things you can do to help your sleep and a quick search will turn up the list. No doubt you’ve looked at this before but I found it was helpful to go for blood on that list and really try to do everything fully (in addition to the exercise.
There was a recent article about vit D and sleep that is worth checking out. Supplementing with D seems to have helped me quite a bit.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28770869
I would also check out a few other potential things that could be affecting your sleep that might not show up in a sleep hygiene listicle, like prostate problems, metabolism changes, CO2 concentration in your sleeping room, sunlight exposure and undetected sleep apnea.
I've found that as I get older if I ingest any remotely psychoactive substances (caffeine, alcohol), I'll have difficulty getting a full 8 hours of sleep. Same applies with stress. The problem is compounded if I'm not exercising regularly or if there are any gaps with my nutrition.
I've struggled with sleep for various reasons for most of my life, and I've put a lot of energy into diagnosing the disruptions. Have you made any observations about the pattern of waking that could provide clues about why it's happening? I'm happy to share a few of the discoveries I've made for myself over the years in case one of them leads you down a productive path.
I had a horrible bout of insomnia early in my career. I'd never given much thought to depression, but it turned out to be the culprit. In my experience, even low grade depression or anxiety (including seasonal affective disorder) can have a major impact on sleep.
I have chronically tight hip flexors due to a spinal injury and years of desk work. At some point I discovered that a quick hip flexor stretch plus sitting in a deep squat for 30 - 60 seconds right before bed is really helpful for me falling asleep and staying asleep.
In the last two years I noticed that my sleep quality really tanked. At some point, I decided to start monitoring my oxygen levels with a continuous monitor (from Wellue) even though I don't have much of an issue snoring or other signs associated with sleep apnea. After observing increasingly frequent dips into the 75 - 85% range, my doctor ordered a sleep study and we confirmed a central sleep apnea diagnosis.
The CPAP definitely wasn't an immediate boon to my sleep, but I have noticed the difference now that I'm maintaining a healthy oxygen level through the night. Even with that improvement, my overall sleep quality is still pretty crap and that can still take a toll on my mental acuity during the day. I did make one more useful observation in the past month when I noticed that I was waking up more and more frequently from shoulder pain. I think that this problem has been building for awhile, and I've had some luck already rearranging pillows to reduce the pressure (plus exercises and stretches).
Whether or not any of these are familiar, I hope you can get to the bottom of the issue quickly. Hang in there, and don't forget to be patient with yourself as you work through it.
Consider CBD. It knocks me out if I'm restless. You'll likely want pure CBD, which doesn't get you high. Just chilled out. Worrying about your perfect 8 is probably making things worse, so finding place of peace regarding sleep will also help. But CBD is probably the quick and dirty solution.
I don't get why this was downvoted. CBD, unlike THC is not even an illegal substance in The Netherlands. Weed needs to be sold via coffee shops, but CBD pills are simply findable in pharmacies.
There are quite a few studies about it (e.g. [1]). And while I haven't researched it enough to verify any claim at all, the fact that it has been research does mean it's not all that odd that some people suggest a link between CBD and sleep. So there is some merit to exo-pla-net's suggestion.
Wondering if anyone on this thread who’s felt this way has been able to try out biphasic sleep and can report if it made a difference? The idea of a “second sleep” after an hour or so awake seems to be gaining prevalence in popular media as something humans used to do naturally.
It's the exact same for me. It's like at eight hours exactly something "clicks" and you're fresh, but anything before that is a weird uncompleted process where I feel like garbage all day yet I can't go back to sleep. I can even feel the weight of my eye bags. Then, I take a short (20 min) nap at some point in the day and I'm completely recovered.
It's frustrating because just 15 more minutes would have prevented all that suffering.
About 10 years ago, I started taking a 1h - 2h walk almost every day, before the walk I buy a coffee to go. It's easily the best part of my day which I look forward to after waking up.
So last week there was a thread about a scientist who wrote a book: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30381000
and I am reading a copy of the book from my local library and it actually covers this topic. The relevant part of theory (which has been shown to be true for every species they measured with doubly labelled water/urine) is that all mammals are calorie restrained - there's a maximum amount of calories that can be eaten, and there's a maximum amount of calories that can be burned, the range for humans is not that big, humans have a much higher calorie per weight budget than our ape/monkey cousins, the extant hunter gatherer societies exhibit the same behavior, and that being inactive like many modern humans means we have excess calories to burn with our bodys involuntary system like the immune system (one of the hunter gatherer societies had high immune system activity because of endemic worm/disease infection to use up a lot of calories), so the hypothesis is being physically active (up to a point) tamps down the activity of involuntary systems that do not need to be so active.
It’s doable, but harder from the psychological side than physical. I have three. Strollers, balance bikes, scooters, bikes… all huge for moving w kids. BUT.. Doing anything consistent daily seems laughable. But I have to get regular exercise for my mental health and so does my wife.
Commuting. Walk or bike to the office. Too far? Take the bus half way. Sweaty and no shower at the office? Bus to work, walk home. Need to pick up kids on the way? Park your car at kindie and bike to office from there.
This might help somebody but it's not super related to the article: in 2012 I had very bad and worsening depression and anxiety even though I had great, stress-free life. My doctor immediately suspected some deficiency in minerals/vitamins. We did a million tests and nothing out of the ordinary. Long story short, we did a sleep test and turns out I had horrible sleep because of my congested nose caused by sinusitis! Sleep is incredibly important.
Were you totally unaware of how bad you sleep was?
Did you have any other symptoms related to poor sleep?
I ask because I have structural nasal issues that I believe are affecting my sleep, but I'm terribly afraid of surgical correction due to the risk of Empty Nose Syndrome. My fitness tracker says my sleep is okay, but I'm starting to doubt it.
As someone who's also suffered from poor sleep, related to nasal issues, I'm curious what you've tried. Have you tried mouth taping, chin straps, or breathe right strips? How about dietary changes to reduce congestion? What about breathing exercises and exercise in general?
I've personally found mouth taping to be the most beneficial, along with breathing exercises (and general exercise) and eating a cleaner diet to reduce congestion. One thing I do is get in bed a bit early so I can do some breathing exercises and get my nasal breathing really dialed in before falling asleep.
I lay in bed on my back and progressively slow my nasal breathing, focusing on very long and complete exhales. I roll over onto my side when I'm ready to fall asleep. I've tried box breathing, and 4-7-8 breathing for this purpose, but I find the extended inhales to be energizing, and not conductive to falling asleep.
I actually did have a septoplasty and turbinate reduction back in 2015 before I'd ever even heard of empty nose syndrome. When I first listened to "Breath", by James Nestor and he talked about empty nose syndrome I recoiled in terror. I had anxiety for a bit, imagining I may have it and not have noticed and from imaging how my life could have turned out if I had a bad surgeon. After a few, I realized those fears were silly, and thanked my lucky stars that I didn't suffer that terrible fate.
The surgery helped my nasal breathing slightly, but it wasn't dramatic or life changing. Knowing about empty nose syndrome now, I would definitely try all other possibilities before going under the knife. I think the surgery can be life changing for some, so it may just depend on how bad your structural issues are and how good the surgeon is.
Tried strips - none of them did anything. May try mouth taping since it seems low risk. I have asthma though (adult onset), which complicates things. I'm pretty good about exercise - my fitness tracker can nail my resting heart rate if nothing else! I'm just a little skeptical about its overall sleep tracking. I am pretty sure identifies waking and slow wave well, but overall, I just don't feel I sleep as deeply as I did even 5-6 years ago. I took percocet last year for a night right after surgery and I hit a level of restfulness that was unmistakably something I hadn't experienced for a long time.
Can fall asleep on my back just fine, but for some reason, every night I wake up hot with a dry mouth about 3-5 hours in and I have to move to side sleeping to deal with the nose.
I think I may just have to pony up for an in-clinic sleep study already and get some better data. I also have chronic muscle cramps and pains from exercise overexertion that are not going away, so again, I'm suspecting poor quality sleep. My diet is pretty good, and my blood tests haven't ever suggested mineral deficiency.
I had nose surgery about 20 years ago for a deviated septum when I was in my late teens, and it did help, but it has since redeviated somewhat, though not nearly as bad as before. I think simply being younger and having more growth ahead of me at that age made tissue regrowth more likely.
Waking up with a dry mouth is a classic sign of nighttime mouth breathing, and potentially hyperventilation. I used to always wake with a dry mouth, and often breathing heavy.
If you're able to breath through your nose, I would definitely recommend trying the mouth taping. I just use a very small strip right in the center of my lips (.5" x 1"), so I can actually still open the sides of my mouth and breath, which makes things feel less claustrophobic.
I was completely unaware. in 2012 I DID feel more tired than usual but just chalked it up to depression and anxiety.
Yes, I had muscle aches too! hence the doctor immediately suspecting lack of vitamins and minerals.
I don't remember the sleep study type :(
Similarly: My anxiety also had a physical cause: pinched spinal nerves. Resolved thru surgery, which was done for other reasons.
I had wrestled with anxiety, insomnia, etc. for ages. Tried everything with no improvement. None of my care providers ever suggested a possible physical cause.
Thank you for this anecdote. I think I have a pinched nerve in the neck, very painful and my anxiety and panic attacks started together with the pain but were unrelated, linked more with university workload. My totally unsupported and unscientific opinion is that the inflammation of the nerve make impossible for my nervous system to relax, hence the anxiety.
I'd like to learn more about this (pinched spinal nerves causing anxiety) but am having trouble finding anything helpful online. Most results are along the lines of the pain making the patient anxious about their condition, with some hypochondria thrown in. Can you elaborate, or do you happen to have a relevant term or two I could search?
I had something similar, but it was due to being disturbed by my partner throughout the night. We bought a SOLID king size bedframe and memory foam mattress and now I don't even notice when my partner is also in bed.
I have the same exact problem and my way of dealing with it is an extreme elimination diet. It's hard, but I can sleep, and I'd rather sleep than pig out on food. Gluten, sugar, spices and a myriad of vegetables and grains are triggers for me.
Also daily saline nasal rinses and I can breathe better than ever, though diet is what does the most work.
My pet theory is years of junk food precipitating into IBS and leaky gut, so only the food that cause fewer reactions are ok. In a healthy body some "toxins" are tolerated and don't cause issues, but when your gut is fucked you need to start from scratch.
… in which someone discovers that practical examples of physical exercise (walking, running) aren’t mentioned in the original research paper.
It’s a valid observation, but it’s then also a critique of making scientific research accessible to a general audience. I don’t see a problem with providing implied examples after citing research that didn’t mention examples.
I've long wondered why some people can get by with little or no exercise and yet seem to live relatively healthy/happy lives. My Mom who's 66 doesn't exercise, other than a little walking, and while she's overweight, she always has energy, a good mood, and seems really resistant to the negative impacts of stressful situations.
On the other hand, If I don't get at least an hour of exercise a day, I start to slip into fatigue, anxiety, and depression. I usually walk for 1.5 hours a day and hit the gym 3-5 days a week for cardio and weight training. Fortunately, I do love being active, and I wouldn't want to be more sedentary anyway. I've never had the greatest sleep quality (falling/staying asleep isn't a problem, deep sleep is), and I wonder if I've just been compensating all this time, and those who naturally sleep really well can do better with a sedentary life.
If you respond well to exercise it might be worth a shot checking for tense muscle
related causes. Physical exercise (esp. heavy weights) might inadvertently work as
a relaxation technique for tensed muscles (similar to the way PNF works [0]).
Some causes for tension I know:
- Neck -- c0 to c2 joint related issues; esp. with the Forward Neck Syndrome,
can tense neck muscles and cause headaches. It's even speculated that
this might be a common cause for migraine [1]
- Dental. If not everything is aligned in the "zero" position, muscles actively
work and overwork to compensate. They are commonly called Temporomandibular
disorders (TMD) [2]
- Eye. Eyestrain can develop, if an eye works too much for too long, hunts for focus,
it can tense forehead and other facial muscles. [3]
and so on, down every joint in the body.
You might have built up some high pain resistance through the years and not even be aware this is happening. This can lead to physiological stress, which in turn interferes with the deep sleep phase (cortisol and other stress hormones keep us half awake for scanning the environment for danger).
Because people conflate exercise (gym, running, whatever) and activity. I can show you many people who degraded massively by not being active - i.e. not consistently walking and using their muscles (there's a reason why physical rehab involves actually moving). Where people are misled is thinking that you have to attend a gym or go running to be healthy - you don't.
The grim reality is that you probably don't see many of the people that faded away and physically degraded by not being at all physically active, because they're very probably elderly and essentially housebound.
It's called the fitness & health industry, not charity. It's in their financial interests to exaggerate or oversell the health consequences of not doing exercise. It comes down to genes. Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger are both in their 90s and do not exercise and have crappy diets yet both are healthy and productive. Another example is William Shatner, who is also obese and just went to space at 90.
That said, gambling on genetics and luck seems like a dreary way to play your one chance at life, even for those of us who aren't billionaires.
Most people in the US seem to eat and live like they're consciously making that gamble, and the result isn't all that seductive when I look around. e.g. How much heart disease, the #1 killer in the US, is preventable by diet and exercise?
Also, living until 90yo+ tells me nothing about your quality of life. Is the softbody 25yo happier and more confident and more fulfilled than the 25yo who puts some work into their body? Is the 40yo without the energy to chase his kids around the house happier than the one who can? Are man-tits and a limp dick at 50yo the key to happiness that fit people are overlooking? etc.
Pointing at outliers doesn't prove anything. They can easily be (and likely are) highly atypical genetically, that doesn't prove how much exercise helps or doesn't help the average person.
I have always had insomnia for 20+ years. It all started with becoming hyperthyroid and subsequently hypo (with radio iodide). I was able to bring it under control with cbt-i. But i find that if i have a special event (it could be a day trip, meeting etc) next day, i cannot sleep even a wink. And sure enough suffer the next day. The best i can describe the feeling when trying to sleep is either sitting in a tree branch and not trying to fall or driving and trying to stay alert. I have managed so far, but i am not able to sleep before any job interview while i am trying to change job. (all the leetcode questions are not helping)
Due to health conditions, i do cardio 60 min/day every day. dumbbell weight training 3x/week. Vegetarian by bringup, didnt try anything new nutritional, because no one suggested.
a sleep specialist told me, i am ovetthinking and i cannot will sleep into existence. He recommended that i do cbt-i. He emphatically ruled out physical tiredness does not necessarily mean mental tiredeness. As i mentioned cbt-i for most part worked, but when the next day there is a significant event, i cannot sleep a wink. I was told (by my primary) to take some anti anxiety pills that did not help much. i dont like sleeping pills as i feel groggy next day almost as if i never slept, even melatonin has that effect.
There is a chemical which can be taken in 1-2gram amounts daily that will give you a six pack just from a couple hours of walking, its legal and its used for other things but it has its "side effects" so needs to be complimented with other chemicals in order to mitigate said "side effects", and thats when you start going down a long path of chemical and biological pathways.
The thing with chemicals is you need to take them at the right time of day in the right amount, take them at the wrong time and your sleep will not be good and/or you will be feeling tired all day.
Most multivitamins can be considered harmful for the above reason but the range of chemicals will offset some of that harm.
Sure exercise can help for pumping blood, raising body temperature, but could you get away with little or not exercise? Probably, if you can control the chemical intake to compliment your food/drink intake, whilst bearing in mind that food/drink already limits your lifespan.
Steroid use will result in fat loss. Having higher Test levels will always result in metabolising more fat for energy, along with boosting muscle growth. The more potent the steroid the more potent the effect. Trenbolone is an especially potent steroid, and is known for being especially effective at reducing body fat.
Yes, well, that is what I was trying to elicit. No idea why they were beating around the bush about steroids. FWIW, I had a good idea what they meant, but they were being vague and ignoring the side effects which take careful management with bloodworm and other hormones off cycle to prevent estrogen / test ratio induced issues (gyno, natural test function). Also, men gain muscle in studies with steroids being sedentary. And lose fat as you said
Nicotinic acid aka vitamin b3, but your will get the prostaglandin "sunburn" flush and it is also a perfectly food statin, but it will destroy other parts of your body so use with extreme caution.
It’s really tough when the first summary of a study is incorrect because it sets the tone for all subsequent coverage. It is so common with scientific studies.
