This attack has been planned for months… EU sanctions have nothing to do with that.

I don't believe it was inevitable.

It was inevitable since 2014. The only thing that is surprising is that it took this long.

Whatever is inevitable for eight years is really not.

Well, if you were looking a bit more closely you would have noticed a lot of little steps all leading to that goal, so as far as I'm concerned it was inevitable, but you are of course entirely entitled to your own worldview.

Maybe not, if you're young enough to think eight years is a long time.

Then you did not listen to Putin's speech where he declares all territories which have once been part of the Russian empire as illegitimate states which should be forcibly reintegrated. He outright declared himself an Imperialist with dreams of empire. The only thing which would have dissuaded Putin was overwhelming force.

And what if Russia detonates a nuclear bomb over these incoming NATO troops?

Then there will be a hot nuclear war.

No something I welcome, but the calculations you are making don’t match up with reality.

How would you have it? Just let any nuclear armed state invade any country it wants? There has to be a place where the line is drawn.

I have trouble understanding your point of view. What are you suggesting? I hope not that US starts nuclear war with Russia over disagreement about Ukraine?

In the case that Russia drops a nuke on NATO troops, you believe that the US should just accept that with no response?

Russia has agency in this scenario. If they drop nukes first they are starting a nuclear war.

The only way it would have been avoidable is for the EU and NATO to withdraw their support (economic, political, military) from Ukraine, in order to enable the Kremlin to bring about a Russia-friendly regime by non-military means. Putin’s goal was always to turn Ukraine back into at least a vassal state of Russia. Given the western-oriented developments in Ukraine since 2014, the opportunity window was slowly closing, time was running out.

Official neutrality and a trade deal with both the EU and Russia?

You couldn’t prevent the Ukrainian people to predominantly prefer a western orientation, and to vote for a government with western values. The only conceivable way to really satisfy Putin would have been for the Ukraine to be controlled by Russia-aligned propaganda and media, probably with rigged elections, similar to Belarus.

Of course, Putin may have hoped that the Ukrainian public would "see the light" and realize that they are really Russian people (as Putin seems to think they ought to) and align themselves accordingly, but that would have been a pipe dream.

How, in your estimation, could it have been averted then?

The west doesn’t really hold the cards at the moment.

The West was ambivalent about eventual Ukraine membership in Nato for 8+ years. What has that achieved?

- If Nato had put a memorandum on Ukraine membership: Russia would have less of a reason to attack but Nato wouldn’t be able to help defend Ukraine in case of an attack

- Nato stays ambivalent about eventual membership: Russia is more likely to attack and, as stated by the Nato general secretary and the US president, Nato won’t help defend Ukraine in case of an attack

> memorandum

I assume you mean "moratorium"?

Yes :)

That's mostly because they have more to lose.

That doesn’t really answer the question.

You claimed that this wasn’t inevitable. From today’s vantage point, it seems pretty clear that this was Putin’s intent all along.

Ah, the good old “YOU made me do it” line. So, Putin had beed moving his 160,000 soldiers to the border for weeks because of the sanctions that were taken 2 days ago?

And NATO had been sending arms and advisors into Ukraine. And what good did that do for Ukrainians who by and large are sick of this conflict?

These arms are probably what will give them their country back in the end. Nobody is under any illusion that the Ukrainian army can defeat Russia in a conventional war. But Russia is signing up for possibly decades of guerilla and insurgencies and is going to bleed dry like the USSR did in Afghanistan.

You know of what Ukrainians are even sicker than this conflict? Russian imperialism. Each instance of sabre rattling brings them closer to the West.

Ukraine is not owned by Russia. If Ukraine invites NATO troops in, that is their right to do so. Ukraine does not want to be part of Russia, which is why Putin just had to launch an attack against the whole of the nation. Kharkiv is Russian-speaking majority and right next to the border, why didn't it voluntarily join Russia 5, 10, 20 years ago? It didn't want to is the correct answer.

Remember how the Russian government was recently talking about how what goes on inside of their borders is only their business? That they may move their troops anywhere they like inside of their borders (the obvious lie by Putin & Co that was obvious at the time)? Yeah, that's the same principle.

Imagine Mexico for any reason would invite Russian army. What answer do expect from US in such case?

And you don't have to imagine, just remember Cuban missile crisis (in response to US deploying missiles in Turkey, Italy)

> Imagine Mexico for any reason would invite Russian army.

I've heard this "analogy" brought up several times in the last couple days, but I just don't find it persuasive or similar, or really actually matter.

If Mexico decided to invite the Russian army in for whatever reason, that is their choice as a sovereign nation. I (as an American) would be super worried about that, but I would also think that the US should probably be asking itself why Mexico had chosen to do this instead of allying itself with the US.

And that's really the heart of this for me: despite Ukraine's history with Russia, they seem to feel that joining NATO is better for their security and safety. Russia should take a hard look at themselves and ask why that's the case, and maybe adjust their behavior so they'd be considered a more trustworthy partner.

But of course that would never happen; instead we have a dictator who believes Russia has some natural right to Ukraine's lands, and will take it by force if necessary. If the US were behaving that way toward Mexico, I absolutely wouldn't blame them for looking for outside help. It would be irresponsible for them not to.

Ukraine is not getting nuclear weapons on its territory. If that were really the issue, Putin would have invaded the Baltic states and Poland. You know, where the weapons actually are.

You are suggesting to attack NATO countries. Do you want WW3?

In which way does what I want matter? I merely point out Putin's hypocrisy, consisting in attacking a country that gave up voluntarily its nuclear weapons and that would not be getting American weapons at all if it weren't for its aggressive neighbour. If Putin were really frightened by NATO, he would not be destabilising Ukraine, he would be undermining Poland.

Ah, yes. It's a pity the Ukrainians did not pick the right side back in 2014 before they ousted Yanukovych.