I’ll just chip in as someone who has never ever wanted kids, who met a lovely girl who was so thankful to also meet someone who has never ever wanted kids.
So just because you’re ‘able’ doesn’t mean that you should. Just wanted to put this here in case others think they’re weird for really, really not wanting kids. You’re not.
Having kids is by far the most life constraining thing you can do. Don’t do it unless you want to be a parent! I have two kids and my life is unrecognizable from what it was before. I enjoy my new life but it is 85% dad, 15% old me.
I would recommend the general area of making sacrifices and servicing others in some form. I think that is a big part of the “spiritual” fulfillment of parenting. I used to be so much more self centered. But now I get up every day thinking how to make the lives of my kids and the world better, rather than “what would my lizard brain enjoy today “
> now I get up every day thinking how to make the lives of my kids and the world better, rather than “what would my lizard brain enjoy today"
This is the key insight. No matter how much dopamine you shovel onto your lizard brain, it will just adapt to it and demand more. There is no maximum speed on the hedonic treadmill. Serving others is the polar opposite of that, you sacrifice the things that would provide you with an immediate reward and the reward you get has nothing to do with satisfying a want. The only way I can describe it is you are only aware of it when it's not there, when you're not doing the right thing by someone, it feels like an absence of something expected. Like putting your hand in your pocket and finding nothing where something should be.
Upvoting this as I’ve always been this way and I’m noticing many friends hit their mid thirties saying “oh I don’t want kids and it feels so good, like a weight has been lifted”
Yep, me and my wife have so much fun without kids. We are also not spiritually empty and we find deep meaning in things we do through our life together.
As a twenty three year old. I'm curious to know more.
why take on responsibility through having children? Why not pickup any other type of responsibilty? like, community service, tutoring/helping kids from less fortunate places or in the worst case even Picking up more responsibility from work?
Is it more of a genetic thing where it makes the pain of responsibility more pleasurable?
I'm even more curious to know if you think it could be some form of "endowment bias" that could be happening. From an objective standpoint, of course.
I have two young children. I'm objectively less happy than I used to be, mostly because I lost the freedom to do whatever I wanted and the time to do whatever I wanted, on top of gaining all of these new stressful responsibilities, and I've always liked to travel, be productive and create things.
That said, when I look back at how I was using that freedom and time, it wasn't very efficient, but even if I optimized my use of it, I would have reached a local maximum of happiness, because I think there's only so much happiness one can bring onto themselves by mastery, shipping products and having hobbies, and, in order to experience additional happiness, major external factors must influence your life.
Having children is that external factor that initially introduced a ton of responsibility and cost (monetary, health, mental and time), but, if the early data points are any indication, the maximum happiness level should exceed the previous local maximum by an order of magnitude. The instant happiness I experience right now just from interacting with them already makes the responsibility worthwhile.
With time, I expect to get back some of the previous freedom and time, and, with that, the happiness it brings me, which should be an additive operation, pushing the overall happiness to a much higher level than the previous local maximum.
Having kids can be a way out of from a too-comfortable hedonistic life. I also realized I had just frittered away precious time doing nothing of much value for the last 10 years.
For data points, while I’m tired as fuck all year I’ve never (maybe as a child) smiled so much as when my new infant tries to constantly get my attention and then giggles when she does.
I wish I could hug you. This is exactly how I feel but didn’t have the words to express it.
Kids take up so much time that I often wonder why -> how did I spend time before kids -> why am I not that much less productive now -> awww -> everything’s gonna be all right.
But that being said it’s absolutely okay to not want kids and be extremely happy with your life. If only there was a shareware parenthood.
Thanks for an amazing explanation that I feel can both reach someone who is not a parent through how it modifes the local maximum, but also verbalizes the feelings and "justification" for being a parent so well.
Because the evolutionarily programmed rewards from parenting will typically outweigh the rewards from general altruism. Your child becomes the most important thing in the world by default, which can flip all sorts of joy and fulfillment triggers in your brain that are difficult to flip in that way via other means. Having children is your genetic purpose, so much of our biology is driven to that end, thus it would figure to provide uniquely strong rewards.
I say this as someone who does not have kids and has no plan to have kids as I don't care to pay the immense costs required, so maybe I shouldn't even be replying to this, but I tend to see the same sorts of replies to these sorts of questions which I think put a bit of extra gloss that obfuscates the true motivators a bit.
I’m not trying in any way to change your mind but I want to say that this is only an opinion.
If you are ready to have kids, those costs are pretty easy to support. As you said, you are biologically programmed to support them (the costs).
I would die without a fear if my son’s life depended on it, and still I’m far from suicidal.
It’s just that, your brain naturally accepts the costs. Even if we are only talking about not being able to go that random party you would never miss before. You will be annoyed, for sure, but you’ll be granted with what you’ll live instead.
But I do think there is something that triggers in your brain starting from the moment when you want a child and it looks like it’s lasting a lifetime.
However, I would never recommend having children to anyone who don’t want them for any reason. Chances are that it turns out to be nice. But I wouldn’t take the risk. I see a lot of children whose treatment by their parents makes me really sad for them. The last thing a toddler want is to feel like a burden. So, better not create yourself this burden.
Right, the thing is before you have children you can weigh the costs/rewards dispassionately, but after you have a child the calculus changes because now this person exists who is now the most important thing in the world to you. As soon as that person exists your life is no longer yours, it is in service of that child (assuming everything goes according to plan, of course it doesn't always work out that way), so of course rationalizing any cost at that point is just part of the deal.
I want my life to be my own, thus the costs are not worth it to me. If I had a kid tomorrow of course that equation would change and it would be in my best interest to rationalize all costs in service of the child, and surely I would and suddenly they would be "worth it." I do not view this as an argument in favor of having children, rather I view it as a a specific detail of the biological programming working its magic.
I'm not a never-kid person either. I am open to the idea that one day I may decide the costs are indeed worth it and seek to have children. I think that seems unlikely, but part of the freedom of designing my own life is having the space for my preferences to change, and I could envision a world in which I would be happy as a parent. It would not be in a nuclear family as is common in the west, but that is perhaps for another discussion.
Just wanted to share appreciation for how well-put your perspective on reasons to have children is - sorry to add, but especially as a non-parent (since, as you say, it's hard to take into account what happens after the "flips" happen), as well as reasonable and respectable your current stance for not having children is. If more people could see both sides that well, there would be more happy children and less unhappy parents.
There is one misconception to avoid about having kids. People focus too much on the part where children are young, presumably because this is the part they see happening around them. At the same time they ignore what it means to have children over the whole course of their lives. Consider for example the relationship one has with one’s parents as an adult.
Let me add the disclaimer that of course some adult parent-child relationships are terrible and off-putting. My point is to seek out a perspective which is not too short-sighted regarding procreation.
> why take on responsibility through having children? Why not pickup any other type of responsibilty? like, community service, tutoring/helping kids from less fortunate places or in the worst case even Picking up more responsibility from work?
The other day I was flicking through my notepad in my home office and found hand written notes from my 6 year old daughter saying how much she loved me. Yes kids are a massive responsibility, but the payback you get if you do it right is immeasurable.
I'm not sure you'd get quite the same from the things you listed, perhaps a little...?
Anyway what is suggest is you enjoy your 20s, but make sure you are in a position to have kids by your early 30s... Otherwise it may be too late for your other half (women's clocks do tick rather fast). If you wait until she is 40 then you are really risking it.
Imagine what happens when it doesn't go right with children and you're in this situation. I have a daughter who caught bacterial meningitis at birth and had to have a brain surgery to solve the infection. Her existence is tragic, she is with us but she is going to have a lifetime of challenges and we've already been through the ringer. Now ever day is like waking up with a mortal wound, and to have other kids who need our help and support, its not rewarding. Add in a job where the culture is toxic and you're being persecuted for doing your job well. its not worth it... none of its worth it.
Thanks for expressing this. I think it gets left out of the conversation due to stigma. People are expected to say how happy they are to have disabled children because anything less is, I suppose, considered inhumane.
However, it's very humane to bring to other people's attention that their prospective children might not be healthy.
They might not, but is there any way you can live where you're free from the risk of terrible calamity? If you become close to another person, you don't know if they'll get hit by a car tomorrow and suddenly leave you grieving in a way you'd never be if you never met them in the first place.
I find it helpful to contemplate just that. Helps me realize that I am in all of my relationships through choice and to appreciate them before their inevitable end.
Very sorry to hear this. Its hugely challenging, in ways that IMHO most people can't comprehend /imagine. In my experience, sibling(s) of a severely disabled person, while they get things put on them that are unfair, also can emerge with great resilience, caring nature, and extra qualities they wouldn't have otherwise had. Perhaps leading to greater happiness. "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" . IMHO there's no real problem caring for a severely disabled person, if the rest of society understood a bit more, and things were better resourced, high quality respite easily available etc, people were willing to pay a bit more tax to help others in need. But the world isn't like that. There are hacks though. Thank goodness for working in tech, where one can at least earn decent money and throw money at challenges. Could you and your partner work 4 days a week each and have a weekday off together? That may be an effective way to get respite and some time together. Best wishes :)
Here's some "clock" info from my fertility doctor I wish I knew when I was 20-something:
35 is roughly the cutoff for "everything's going to be fine without much effort or thinking", so plan ahead.
That's when you're going to start getting help from fertility doctors, consider IVF, get test results showing that your own sperm's motility is not perfect (i.e. you've got a clock too), higher chances of Down syndrome, etc.
For some folks that's not a lot of time to get married, buy a house, a car, get a stable job and bring your financial situation in order. These aren't strict requirements, but the amount of stress involved when one of them is missing is something you'll have to handle, so at the very least you and your partner shouldn't be completely oblivious of the soft deadline at 35.
I'm not sure you'd get quite the same from the things you listed, perhaps a little...?
The note from your daughter, while sweet, can also come from those you help. For example, sponsoring a childrens school in India, or mentoring an orphan through a Big Brother program.
I think the main point here is you are in service by helping others, instead of focusing on yourself.
If the customer relations specialist from one of the charities I donate to wrote me a note about how much they love me I’m not sure how I would feel about that
It could be but realistically, is that going to be anywhere close to as moving from someone you've never met? And on their side too, they may appreciate the help, but you're not exactly going to replace their parents in their hearts. It's just a totally different level of engagement.
It looks like just a responsibility and you might only see the trouble they make when you don't have them. I use to see the same way.
When you have a kid, seeing them smile and grow and all thi gs they do gives the happiness you might have never felt before. Closest thing you could compare it to might be when you create something (a painting, project etc) and in the process each small accomplishment gives you a spike of happiness. Here it's a kid who cries for a need, and then you solve that need and make him smile. You make a human smile who can't even tell you what's there problem and make them feel protected enough that they sleep without a care in the world. There is lots of fulfillment steps in the whole process.
"why take on responsibility through having children? "
I doubt there is a absolute answer.
You either want it, or you don't.
Or you are not sure and then it might just happen one day and then, "well, let's go with it". Despite not having perfect conditions.
I think I wanted to have kids at around your age, but was clear, to wait until I could provide a adequate perfect base.
And then years later it just happened, before me being ready and the responsibility for sure was and is very intense. But mostly of a good kind.
Many things can be said but you will experience an emotional range like you've never felt before - the lows are really low and the highs are really high - plus a lot of your life will no longer be within your control, which always adds a bit of adventure to things.
> the lows are really low and the highs are really high
This resonated with me; I am yet to experience the lows because my kids are still young - the highs are just unparalleled. The happiness and calm I feel from having my son putting his head on my shoulders listening to bedtime stories is unmatched by anything else going on in my life.
Major issue is Community service and tutoring/helping kids lack involvement. If you can be fully invested and involved then that's definitely better way to do. But most people can get much more involved easily when it's thier own children.
But having kids is all-in: there is no turning back and no flexibility
I would feel so much more limited and bounded in what I can do in the world, because my own financial future and my own mortality would be way more relevant with dependents.
Yeah, it's just biology. Works for some, not for others. The problem with the advice 'have kids for meaning in life' is if you do have kids and you get nothing out of it, you might resent the kid which would ruin two lives.
That said, I didn't have my first kid until my late 30s and every thing I did prior to that seems like a pointless waste of time now. YMMV.
Isn't that precisely why it works? Any life change you make where you have an out, you're likely to bail the first time it goes a little bit wrong. When I'm thinking about decisions like this, I remember one of the battles in Romance of the Three Kingdoms where the general (sorry, forgetting who) just deliberately leaves his army with their back to the water to make it clear, the only way is forward.
The last point is the one that I think gets almost zero attention. People talk constantly about how great and fulfilling it is to help bring a child into the world, see it grow, teach it all the things you know, etc. What they actually mean is that it's very gratifying to have kids that are yours and look like you and came from you, because deep down we are all narcissists.
When you start talking about how they could have done literally all of those things by adopting any one of the bajillion kids that need it, most people will openly tell you that they would never consider it and don't feel even slightly hypocritical about it.
It is simply natural/biological. A bit like eating good food or having sex is pleasurable and essential but of course in a different way.
Your body is tuned for that and without it you lack something (way more true for females). You might be able to put something in its place, but it might not do the job.
Consider that when a men is in presence of youngs kids his hormonal balance change so he become more caring, more in tune to their needs. When they get older that phase out and the kids become more annoying, signaling that it’s time for them to find their way, to distantiate themselves progressively from their parents.
I found out that I cannot stand anymore the kids movie I used to watch with them multiple times when they were younger.
I find also that the life in big cities is less conducive to having a family, we tend to think about the space we have (bedrooms) and size of cars to decide on family size where it should go in the other direction. If I was younger I would have move to the country sooner and have four kids instead of just two.
I think it give your life meaning to care for people that are going to outlive you. You have to think about their future, how can you help them develop in a good directions, what are their specifics needs to maximize their potential, what did you wish was done for you that you can pass on to them.
Female are more tuned to the need for kids. Most of the time they will know the right time and will push enough to make things happen.
It's a trade off, I think.
When you have responsibility you are sacrificing something to complete that task. so yeah, responsibilities come with a baggage and the baggage are some times painful.
To express it in more “pragmatic” terms, the responsibility is essentially acting as “having skin in the game”. If there is no skin in the game, then you can’t expect to get that much out of it.
And yes, having skin in the game doesn’t automatically make things better. It actually introduces potential to make things more painful, in case things go wrong. But it also increases the ceiling on what you can get out of it, not just increasing the ceiling on what you can lose. Which basically makes things feel more meaningful and rewarding.
This idea is basically conservatism. It works for a lot of people, there must be something to it, but it's not some kind of objective truth or the only outlook on life.
I know you don’t mean it this way, but this general attitude sees life as a Ponzi scheme. For your kids to find meaning, they are forced to have kids too? And if they can’t? Suckers holding the bag.
Fulfillment must be discoverable outside of that specific path, otherwise it’s cruel to bring someone into existence as a means for your end.
A child born today in the west has a better life expectancy than any other period in human history. Despite all the global challenges, we still live in the most prosperous age ever
