Matrix is far closer to being "the email for instant messaging" -- Signal-like double ratchet encryption by default for private rooms, federated in a similar way to email servers (but much simpler to manage as an admin), much nicer group chat UX, simpler identity key verification (it has Signal-like QR codes but it also has emojicode verification which is nice if you're not in the same place when doing verification), has an open specification, multiple client implementations, a couple of still-in-progress alternative server implementations, it even has bridges (which have pretty decent UX) to other social networks like IRC, Slack, Discord, and so on.
Signal is far from an open standard. I use it and am quite happy using it, but with the knowledge that Moxie has publicly said many times that he does not believe in federation or third party clients (and will implement client blocking as well as using trademark suits if the problem gets big enough). And it's fine to have that opinion, I just disagree with it and you shouldn't sell Signal as something the lead developer has said they're explicitly against.
For folks saying (read: hoping) that Signal may become federated in the future -- I think it's a much safer bet to just use Matrix since it's already federated and has at least equivalent privacy guarantees (or even larger if you self-host your own server) and hope that Signal will peer with them in the future (which I personally think is about as likely as Signal becoming federated itself -- namely, it's very unlikely either way). But you do you.
> Moxie has publicly said many times that he does not believe in federation or third party clients (and will implement client blocking as well as using trademark suits if the problem gets big enough)
Well that's a shame - I wonder if, given moxie is a member of the HN community, he'd clarify what is meant by that. I had a quick search and didnt find anything.
[1] is Moxie saying that he is against third-party clients using Signal servers (meaning third-party clients cannot communicate with Signal users). [2] is Moxie saying that he is also against federating with other Signal servers (and implies that they use their trademark aggressively to stop the term "Signal" from being used by third-party apps).
Given how explicit he was about this at the time (and the lack of comments to the contrary in the past 5 years), I honestly don't think any clarification is necessary. That's his opinion and while I may disagree with his opinion, we shouldn't pretend that he is likely to change it in the future (or to imply that isn't his opinion on the topic). If you feel strongly that you want decentralised instant messaging, use Matrix (or something like it) rather than hoping Signal will become something Moxie has said he is against it becoming.
Moxie Marlinspike gave a talk at 36C3 about the issues of decentralized systems and why Signal decided to not go that direction.
In short, his argument was largely chat ecosystems are constantly evolving but decentralized protocols tend to ossify. Thus, decentralized protocols will ultimately not be able to keep up with the demands of the users.
Lots of people point to email as an example. I'd like to also point out the phone system and its codecs as another example. Most phone calls behind the scenes are using SIP to handle connectivity. SIP is codec agnostic, you could technically use any kind of codec in the RTSP stream. Its a very decentralized protocol, and highly extensible. And yet it seems like almost every time you try and place a call, the only codec anyone else supports is G.711, a codec released in 1972 and hasn't had a major update since 2000. We're slowly seeing G.722 adoption now that the patents have run out (HD voice on cell phones) but even then this is spotty. Meanwhile every other chat platform out there has moved on to more efficient and higher quality codecs because all it took was the chat platform owner to push one version update out.
The decentralized communications network is only just now finally adopting and rolling out a _33 year old_ codec. Sure sounds like a win for decentralized systems!
Why would Matrix have potentially larger privacy guarantees than Signal when self-hosted? As I understand it, when communicating with a user on a different homeserver, those chats are mirrored to that homeserver.
Because Signal has one (set of) servers which contain all messages sent through the Signal network. With Matrix if you are communicating with only a handful of people that either self-host or otherwise don't use Matrix.org then the largest homeservers don't even have a copy of your (encrypted) message history. In order for Matrix to be equivalent to Signal in this aspect, every single Matrix user would have to use Matrix.org (which isn't the case).
Right, the homepage definitely isn't built for regular people right now. The process for getting started seems to be:
go to matrix.org > click "Try Now" > get redirected to element.io > click "Open in your browser" > allow it to use IndexedDB > create an account > start messaging
I have tiny grievances with every step of this process: matrix.org is filled with too much jargon; "try now" sounds like some kind of trial; redirections to totally different websites are scary; the relationship between Matrix and Element isn't clear; the stock photo-ish background on app.element.io is a bit tacky; asking for browser permissions on page load is rude; the account creation page makes the "edit homeserver" button fairly prominent but doesn't tell us what it does in plain language; I should have been told that you can invite people by email before I clicked "send a direct message"; adding an email to invite asynchronously pulls up a "terms of service" dialog.
There's a lot to love about Matrix, so I hope it becomes easier for people to get started with it.
FWIW I just tell most people to try Element. I can tell them about Matrix later. You can link them to https://element.io/get-started which is fairly good and skips a couple of steps.
The UX still isn't "great" or "delightful" but I have had people sign up and find be by email or matrix ID with no problem.
Signal is far from an open standard. I use it and am quite happy using it, but with the knowledge that Moxie has publicly said many times that he does not believe in federation or third party clients (and will implement client blocking as well as using trademark suits if the problem gets big enough). And it's fine to have that opinion, I just disagree with it and you shouldn't sell Signal as something the lead developer has said they're explicitly against.
For folks saying (read: hoping) that Signal may become federated in the future -- I think it's a much safer bet to just use Matrix since it's already federated and has at least equivalent privacy guarantees (or even larger if you self-host your own server) and hope that Signal will peer with them in the future (which I personally think is about as likely as Signal becoming federated itself -- namely, it's very unlikely either way). But you do you.