Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

> Once people get a taste of UBI, how do we prevent voters and politicians from pushing it to unsustainable levels? It seems like the incentive on both sides will be to always push it higher and higher.

You're forgetting the other side of the coin. The money comes from somewhere.

Suppose you can fund a $12,000 UBI with a flat 25% tax rate. So now the breakeven point is at $48,000 in income. If you make more than that you don't want to increase the UBI amount because it'll cost you more than it gets you.

Whereas you could fund a $15,000 UBI with a flat 35% tax rate. The rate has to be more than proportionally higher because of the negative impact of higher tax rates on economic activity. Now the breakeven point is at ~$43,000 in income. It's lower, so fewer people want to increase it more than that.

When the breakeven point has more than half of the population on the other side, you don't have the votes to raise the amount any more.

> Imagining a world with UBI, widespread automation, and general or close-to-general AI, what percent of humanity will be able to meaningfully contribute?

Imagine a world with widespread automation and general or close-to-general AI without a UBI.




> you don't want to increase the UBI amount because it'll cost you more than it gets you

I think this is an oversimplification, because in practice, there will be a gradient of people around the inflection point who would be willing to take less in order to stop working, and that gradient will vary by the individual and by the job.

Additionally, I can also imagine politicians promising increases to the UBI without concomitant tax increases, funded by bonds or other kind of financial mechanisms for monetary injection whose long-term negative externalities would be easy to obfuscate from voters.

> Imagine a world with widespread automation and general or close-to-general AI without a UBI.

This is the key point. UBI is (in my current opinion) a necessary tool for smoothing an economic transition to a highly-automated level. However, I am concerned that it might induce other economic instabilities such as in tax rates, voluntary or involuntary unemployment, underemployment, inflation, borrowing, minimum wage, and so on -- these instabilities could then spread to social or political disruption that would undermine progress towards the transition that UBI was originally meant to support.

Since the size of the UBI would roughly correlate with the size of its influence economically/socially/politically, then as the UBI increases, the variance of these potential instabilities would also increase. As such, increases to the UBI should be carefully controlled, for example by gating them to developmental milestones. Of course, that opens a whole can of worms on who sets the milestones and so on, so I suppose it's really just shrugging and hand-wringing all the way down.


> I think this is an oversimplification, because in practice, there will be a gradient of people around the inflection point who would be willing to take less in order to stop working, and that gradient will vary by the individual and by the job.

This is less of a problem than you would think, because the people for whom this is the case are the exact people who would already be in the "make it higher" camp.

Suppose you make $20,000/year from your job ($15,000 after tax) and then get a $12,000 UBI, so $27,000 in total. $12,000 is less than $27,000, but maybe if it was $15,000 and then you didn't have to work, you might be willing to take the pay cut. But this is the same person who benefits from raising it to $15,000 even if they continue to work; it doesn't change their vote.

Whereas the person making $52,000/year ($39,000 after tax, $51,000 after the UBI) is not going to be inclined to go from $51,000/year to $15,000/year even if it meant they didn't have to work, so all of those people are going to want to keep it at $12,000, to say nothing of anybody making more than that.

> Additionally, I can also imagine politicians promising increases to the UBI without concomitant tax increases, funded by bonds or other kind of financial mechanisms for monetary injection whose long-term negative externalities would be easy to obfuscate from voters.

But we have this problem already. It's an independent problem.

If you can find a way to stop it, do it. But if they're going to do it anyway then better that the money goes to everybody than that it goes to whichever cronies have the best lobbyists.




Consider applying for YC's Fall 2025 batch! Applications are open till Aug 4

Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: