And yet Tim Cook has the cheek to get 'woke'. Apple could easily afford to build everything in a country that isn't an awful dictatorship running concentration camps and still earn obscene profits.
And yet they still somehow maintain this aura of being the 'good guys'...
Apple's supply chain is more than 1,000 companies. Do you really think Apple has the expertise and personnel to replicate what 1,000 companies have spent decades mastering? Not likely.
No company on earth has ever been able to make a smartphone entirely themselves, and no company ever will, although i'd like to be proven wrong.
> Apple's supply chain is more than 1,000 companies. Do you really think Apple has the expertise and personnel to replicate what 1,000 companies have spent decades mastering? Not likely.
As one of the richest corporations on the planet which always smugly tells everyone how nice they are and how much they respect people?
Yes, fuck yes. They're not a mom and pop shop. They're a corporation that finds millions to lobby governments against making your electronics repairable. They can redirect those to paying the manufacturing workers directly.
One of the reasons Jobs cited as being an important factor for locating in China is the availability of skilled labor. It would have taken them years to hire enough industrial engineers to handle the scope and scale and volume that the iPhone required in the US, if they could even manage it at all, but only weeks to do so in China.
The supply chain is also important. One person who worked in Shenzhen commented that, as a manufacturer, if you suddenly discover you need a certain kind or size or shape or length of screw, you can have a shipment at your door the same day, because the factory that produces a thousand different kinds of screws is just down the road.
To move to the US, they'd either have to replicate most of that manufacturing in the US, which would take decades and be extremely expensive, or deal with a week of latency every time they need a new or different part as they get it shipped from China anyway, making most of this process moot.
Yes, Apple should do something about this issue, and yes it's horrible to imagine them profiting off this with their "nice guy" image, but keep in mind that if they did this and increased the cost of the iPhone, other companies wouldn't, and it would put Apple at a huge disadvantage.
One thing we've seen over the last century of western civilization is that cheaper wins over better. Cheaper toasters that don't last, cheaper fridges that break down after their three-year warranty is up, cheaper laptops that come infected with bloatware and adware. If Apple refused to manufacture in China because of forced labour issues, then they'd lose out on sales to companies who kept benefitting from it, because consumers, as a whole, just don't give a shit.
I mean, if anyone cared about what it takes to provide them with cheap products, they'd be enraged that Jeff Bezos is the richest man in the world even though the workers that run his company are subsisting on food stamps and burnout quotas.
That said, Apple is working on moving production to India, and I'd wager that the more they can do that and expand their operations there, the less and less they'll deal with China for manufacturing, but right now no one who manufactures electronics in large volumes can do so without involving China.
In the meantime, they can work on cutting this supplier out of their supply chain; the article is talking about only one of their suppliers, though a long-term supplier, and not actually people working for Apple or manufacturing iPhones directly, so hopefully they can draw a line in the sand and force Lens to either stop using forced labour or lose the contracts.
You’re going to get cherry picked apart for this, but as someone who has ran supply chains, been apart of product dev that involved early hardware design & dev and the necessary chain dev to build that design, you hit the nail on the head.
Everyone wants a bad guy here, and apples logo with the billions behind it enable people to easily assign blame to that logo (not that they shouldn’t). But what’s forgotten is the massively complex “stack”, if you will, that brings everything together. Just saying “oh this billion dollar company is terrible!” Is being lazy and doesn’t contribute to a solution, all it does it make people feel entitled and validated because it doesn’t take much real thought.
The real problem at root is human/consumer behavior. Turning a logo into a fitting evil character borrowed from childhood cartoon narratives is not real.
> The real problem at root is human/consumer behavior. Turning a logo into a fitting evil character borrowed from childhood cartoon narratives is not real.
If the real problem is human/consumer behavior, then any real solution requires changing how humans/consumers behave.
A coordinated campaign to spoil good-will in any company that uses forced labor is an attempt at changing how humans/consumers behave, no?
I think that's a very unfair assessment of my original comment and very dismissive.
Do not make the mistake of thinking everybody who criticises a company like apple is naive as to the complexities and difficulties around supply chains at scale. I certain don't.
Having literally worked for one of apple's suppliers who they bankrupted to bring the process in-house I have given this probably a lot more thought than you imagine.
They have been trying to vertically integrate all suppliers as much as humanly possible for reasons of control, margin and competitive advantage. This has been apple's approach for many years and they have been utterly ruthless in doing so.
If they had the will to start to take the steps to actually divest from a literally genocidal state, they could do it. They simply do not care.
The part I do agree with you on is that they also know their customers do not care, and consumer awareness and action is a key part of pushing back on this kind of thing.
But please do not absolve apple of guilt by waving your hands and saying the supply chain is too interdependent and complicated.
If they can take steps to fuck over suppliers for profit and control, they can take steps to avoid slave labour.
> One thing we've seen over the last century of western civilization is that cheaper wins over better. Cheaper toasters that don't last, cheaper fridges that break down after their three-year warranty is up, cheaper laptops that come infected with bloatware and adware. If Apple refused to manufacture in China because of forced labour issues, then they'd lose out on sales to companies who kept benefitting from it, because consumers, as a whole, just don't give a shit.
Apple customers have made it very clear that as a whole, they are not price conscious. Better beats cheaper, or they’d be all using cheapo Android phones.
Apple has very high profit margins compared to their competitors in the same industries. Apple can pay their suppliers more, rather than driving them down to the bone, which of course results in workers being exploited.
Or they could be more transparent that the only thing that matters is the size of their profits, instead of cultivating a good guy corporate image, as the hypocrisy stinks.
> One of the reasons Jobs cited as being an important factor for locating in China is the availability of skilled labor. It would have taken them years to hire enough industrial engineers to handle the scope and scale and volume that the iPhone required in the US, if they could even manage it at all, but only weeks to do so in China.
So, potentially, if the phones were made in the US they'd be like Ferraris? Very expensive and only a few made at a time?
This doesn't sound like they are using skilled labor.
> It suggests that iPhone glass supplier Lens Technology has been using Muslim minority Uighurs, who were given the stark choice of working in the company’s plant or being sent to detention centers which have been likened to concentration camps
Absolutely it would be very costly, absolutely the expertise might not even exist at scale in an alternative country, absolutely it would take effort and pain and a long time.
But apple appear to, in the decades since the iPhone made them richer than many countries, have made zero effort whatsoever to address these issues.
Having worked at an apple supplier that they bankrupted in order to make the process entirely in-house (one of many they've done that to) I just do not buy that they could not have taken steps to divest. Some. Any.
Of course the issues are true of many other companies, but as I said in my original comment, the fact they portray some woke mentality (under which every single microscopic thing somebody does can be considered 'problematic') while continuing to take little to no action in divesting from a literally genocidal state which harvest organs says something about them.
The combination of their outrageous markups (which _could_ permit a more costly but more ethical supply chain) due to which they'd not have to increase prices (and thus making them one of the most able to actually divest like that), their utterly ruthless business practices and their woke and patronising pandering makes them a particularly egregious case, so in my opinion far worse than the likes of amazon, etc. (not discounting bad things they do, just a matter of perspective).
> One of the reasons Jobs cited as being an important factor for locating in China is the availability of skilled labor
Highly skilled forced labor?
Let's not kid ourselves - it's all about cost cutting. They're trying to diversify and move to another low wage country, India.
Not - I'm not saying that China or India lacks skilled labor, or highly paid experts. But that's not why companies like Apple are there. They're there for cheap labor, and close to non-existent labor protections. But China is starting to change, so Apple is looking for new places.
> Yes, Apple should do something about this issue, and yes it's horrible to imagine them profiting off this with their "nice guy" image, but keep in mind that if they did this and increased the cost of the iPhone, other companies wouldn't, and it would put Apple at a huge disadvantage.
It's like saying that Google and Facebook should continue to disregard privacy, because their huge margins relay on that?
> Not - I'm not saying that China or India lacks skilled labor, or highly paid experts. But that's not why companies like Apple are there.
I think it is partly. China in particular seems to have a depth, quality and volume of hardware engineering skills that isn't available anywhere else in the world. Maybe the US had this once, but as far as I can see: not anymore.
Apple annual income is more than the annual budgets of many countries they don't need to make everything themselves but they can have few thousand trained inspectors which monitor all the places where it products are being produced. If they are able to keep new phone designs months into production secret they are also capable of monitoring and finding about worker abuse.
> Apple's supply chain is more than 1,000 companies.
And whose choice was that? Apple has chosen to do business with all of these companies and they have chosen to consistently do business in China even despite the long history of China's violations of human rights abuses. Of course Apple is responsible for their choices of who to do business with!
Most companies can and do prioritize vendors who meet non-monetary criteria. Apple can easily ask vendors to complete external ethics audits, these audits usually request information on each vendors suppliers, suppliers of suppliers, etc.
Apple absolutely has control over who they buy from in this regard. Failing their willingness to act the US federal government has the authority to enforce labor law parity with trading partners through trade negotiations, tariffs, and bans.
> Do you really think Apple has the expertise and personnel to replicate what 1,000 companies have spent decades mastering?
Yes absolutely. They do supply chain all day, every day: in order to keep high quality, they need to be in tight control. They're very, very good at outsourced manufacture or they wouldn't be a US$1T company.
Foxconn was only the first to reach our awareness but it seems there's many other vendors with dubious HR.
Pointing out that no company can make the entire smartphone by themselves is all well and good. The OP was applying that wisdom to the "woke" culture Cook is seeking to solidify within Apple.
It's just as unrealistic for Apple to be woke as it is for them to make the whole phone by themselves. They love existing under that banner, though, because it succeeds in tricking many people into believing they can use iPhones and avoid being hypocrites.
The point of any kind of messaging is to broadcast intent and is always at least a little aspirational. That's the first step.
I'd honestly be far more wary about companies who doesn't broadcast anything, just to make whatever profit at whatever cost. Any Chinese phone brand right now (correct me if I'm wrong) or companies like Huawei or Lenovo, where, like it or not would have that approach to business possibly baked into their DNA.
Interesting that large parts of that supply chain coincidentally operate in parts of the world which have extremely low wages and virtually no worker rights.
Having worked at a company that Apple bankrupted in order to bring their work in-house I respectfully disagree that they lack the will or ability to avoid complicity with a genocidal totalitarian state.
Then by extension if you buy any computer, consumer electronics, smartphone, manufactured toy, etc, you are complicit in human slavery.
There are almost no computer or smartphone companies which do not participate in these markets. Samsung, Dell, HP, Lenovo (which is a Chinese company yet oddly gets ignored every time these discussions come up), Microsoft, LG, etc etc etc. All of them participate in these same industries. Most of them get little or no scrutiny even though they use many of the same supply lines Apple does and have far less in terms of transparency about their supply chain.
And almost every company on that list will use the same factories, supply chain, and probably labor. There are not that many ODM manufacturers that have enough scale and capability to build high precision electronics.
That would be companies like Foxconn, Pegatron (from the same founders of Asus), Wistron, Compal, etc., etc. Basically every factory that manufactures your Dell, Asus, Samsung (?), etc.
Intel might just be the only company where there's a chance your chip is built in the US and thus uses the minimal amount of forced labor necessary to mine and ship the raw material.
I don't think the issue is with the CPUs. For example TSMC is has always seemed pretty well clear of these issues as well. Forced labor is usually involved in mining for battery components, or mid-low skill tasks like assembly.
Not only do all those other companies use the same manufacturers they use literally the same manufacturer and people and facilities from this article... Lens Technology.
And yet the headline only says Apple. I asked why HN also used Apple in the headline given it is inaccurate in another comment but that was downvoted.
>Then by extension if you buy any computer, consumer electronics, smartphone, manufactured toy, etc, you are complicit in human slavery.
Indeed. I really don't understand the lack of public and political will to end the largest slavery system ever to exist on earth (by which I mean the whole offshore manufacturing sphere, not just Uighurs in China).
Where is the reporting on these companies lobbying against a bill to support the Uyghurs?
The only company I'm aware of that is getting any press on this issue is Apple.
Apple fans would rather jump to whataboutism than tarnish their favorite company. None of this is good, and the wealthiest and stingiest company in the world should do better.
You seem to think you can damn everyone who buys Apple for their participation in abuses, even as you enjoy products which are likely far deeper into this bullshit.
All you've done is point out your own biases and willingness to dive deep into hypocrisy.
There is a big problem with forced labor. Apple is one of the few companies who is remotely transparent about their supply chain. As much manufacturing as Apple does, they are bound to end up buying from some of these vendors. But unlike most of their competitors, we've seen Apple adjust their buying from suppliers who get caught doing this.
Apple is lobbying to protect their access to slave labor. (Reference in my previous post.) How is that in any way ignorable? Why bring up anything else? Why defend them when they're saying one thing and doing another?
Apple fans never condemn their company. They always hurdle accusations at everyone and anything else they can to protect their fruit god. Just like you're doing now.
Say it: "Apple uses and has benefitted from slave labor. I believe this is wrong and should change."
If you can't say that, I have more than proven my point.
It doesn't matter what other companies are doing. They're all bad. But Apple has the least excuse of them all, because they're the richest and most powerful.
Not that you care, but I cut consumption out of my life. My phone is old and I save and invest most of my income.
If my media company gets off the ground, I'd love to make a movie about Tiananmen.
I love the Chinese people (I studied Mandarin in college), but I refuse to support their regime. Businesses that kowtow should not be supported. Businesses that benefit from slave labor and Chinese market access have a lot to answer for.
I don't get the downvotes on this. Well, okay, I do, but it's not wrong. It's hard to buy anything without supporting odious practices somewhere in the supply chain. The incentive is to get costs as low as possible, and globalism let's companies put all the bad stuff far enough away that the consumers don't care.
I understand if you still want to buy smartphones--I'm typing this one one--but do it with h your eyes open. "Because it's a buzzkill" is not a good reason to ignore it. And if it bothers you, we should do something about it, like lobbying politicians, supporting labor unions, and raising awareness.
Well, I guess that last one will just get you downvotes
So, it's probably reasonable to suspect that FairPhone does (or did) use suppliers that used forced labor. I only checked the one because I had remembered hearing it somewhere.
Why are you moving the goalposts? What does the history matter, the list of countries currently with millions of people in concentration camps is quite short.
You need to raise your standards.
Concentration camps are inherently evil, it does not matter how many people are in them. A concentration camp isn’t acceptable just because it only has 999,999 people in it.
The goal post moving was the phrasing "with any history of human rights issues" (emphasis mine). The goal was: let's not do business with places who are currently abusing human rights like this. The goal post was then moved to: let's not do business with places with any history of human rights issues.
Not really, there is a compromise - it is not black and white. You can buy out of necessity, just don't over indulge or be complicit in their lies - hype compounds the problem by pumping up demand.
Apple is a capitalist enterprise; Apple can only afford to maximize profit — everything else is just window dressing.
Wokeness, philanthropy, environmental consciousness, branding, origin story, etc.; all of these things are viewed favorably by the cultural mode. Therefore, you should expect capitalists to appropriate them to distract from, or justify, the profits they make and the concentrated power they enjoy as a result (i.e. labor exploitation, control over consumer choices, influence in the market, lobbying for legislation, dictating the terms of contracts with vendors)
Apple isn’t the problem, it’s behaving how it’s supposed to in the market capitalist system that currently dominates the world. This cruelty is inevitable in capitalism.
I guess this kind of news paints the wrong picture, or more likely to believe in this kind of thing. The more likely case is that, there are a bunch of people who are unemployable having no skills or lack motivations to work or happen to be in miserable conditions (like the homeless in US) were forced (yes) to enter this kind of "de-radicalization camps", monitored (yes) and _given_ an opportunity to get employment (like an internship for students) and get _paid_ the market salary. Yes they were forced to have a job that they can potentially do (the work conditions are like other "normal" apple factory workers). If they decline, well they need to go back to the "school"..
> The more likely case is that, there are a bunch of people who are unemployable having no skills or lack motivations to work or happen to be in miserable conditions (like the homeless in US) were forced (yes) to enter this kind of "de-radicalization camps", monitored (yes) and _given_ an opportunity to get employment (like an internship for students) and get _paid_ the market salary. Yes they were forced to have a job that they can potentially do (the work conditions are like other "normal" apple factory workers). If they decline, well they need to go back to the "school"..
This news makes it more likely to believe in this kind of thing.
> The more likely case is that, there are a bunch of people who are unemployable having no skills or lack motivations to work or happen to be in miserable conditions (like the homeless in US) were forced (yes) to enter this kind of "de-radicalization camps", monitored (yes) and _given_ an opportunity to get employment (like an internship for students) and get _paid_ the market salary. Yes they were forced to have a job that they can potentially do (the work conditions are like other "normal" apple factory workers). If they decline, well they need to go back to the "school"..
Unfortunately, the free flow of uncensored news has made you aware of something I don't want you to know.
These people are no help to themselves, and do not want to do what the government tells them to do, even though it would be greatly beneficial. They are monitored, of course, as all radicals should be. The US has no right to complain. After all, they also have useless, dirty homeless people, which are pretty much the same thing.. Furthermore, these prisoners are even paid for their work! What more do they want!?
If they decline, they should be sent back to their interment camps.
Thanks, that lays the idea better than I can. But some of it was misunderstood, or perhaps I used the wrong words. Most of what you said is truthful to my original comment.
Let me share a bit more from my experience living in China for 20 years. In China, taking street people (mostly beggars or orphans who were used by gangs as pick-pockets or whatnot) into custody is systematic for as long as I can remember. (There's news that this system is to be abolished in 2021 by a new law amendment.) It's systematic as there are full-time employees who job is to do this. It is considered "help" by the general society (but there could be abuses by bad actors for sure), the system has good intentions. Because they are not criminals, it's not exactly like prison but it is true that they are taken by force to go through a "program" where they need to listen to propaganda, be educated or trained for a certain skills (mostly factory jobs such as making toys, shoes etc.) and be forced to work at a given place for a certain period. The system is not perfect, it is outright offensive to "individual freedom" (where you are "free" to be just like the US homeless drug addicts). But it is net positive for the society by sacrificing some of these people who are unwilling to go through it.
This is just a small piece of what China calls "Wei Wen" ("maintain stability"). The employees who work on those people are more akin to what is called "social workers" in US. They are institutionalized to have a budget to pay for food and training costs and the work to look out for job opportunities for these people (frankly the factory owners generally don't want to employee these people). These employees make a government salary. The factory owners get frankly sloppy workers they don't like but have to cooperate with the government. But this type of work eventually pays off to society when many of these people get out of their old life tracks by having a job and skill where they can stop being beggars or thieves.
China is a society that traditionally (from its culture and also political ideology) values "the collective value" more than the individual value. It has always been the case, which is important to understand the mindset of the government and the Chinese society in general. The "unemploytables" constitute a "problem" to society, which must be solved. This is not much different than prostitution is a "problem" for most countries. If you follow Xi Jinping's rule and his propaganda (which I doubt), his big agenda for 2020 is to "eradicate" poverty, this makes it easier to understand what is really going on in Xin Jiang. Xin Jiang happens to be a place where both poverty and radicalism are intermingled, so their approach could be different than say, Gui Zhou province (where it's mostly poverty). But this year I've read so much from CCTV (CCP's media) that they lifted people from poverty by giving them "a means of living".
And yet they still somehow maintain this aura of being the 'good guys'...