As fellow humans, there is no way to look at this situation and find something positive. The actions of the CCP need to be condemned. If you disagree with this point, we are fundamentally at odds.
To those complaining about the anti-China narrative, it's the CCP (government) which are at fault, not the people. I think we should always make it very clear that it's not the Chinese people we take issue with and we are not condemning people based on race.
As for actions taken against China and masquerading behind human-rights to justify them, I think it's okay to temporary align ourselves with those whose actions align with our ideology, even if the motivation is different. Life is about compromise and we're going to find very few allies if we will only work with people perfectly aligned with our own motivations.
We ought to condemn China for it's human rights abuses. We should also condemn Israel for similar abuses, which it's doing out in the public. Keeping 2 million people in a virtual concentration camp in Gaza, with no hope.
> To those complaining about the anti-China narrative, it's the CCP (government) which are at fault, not the people
What would you say if the people widely supported it? Do you have evidence otherwise?
Most mainlanders don't seem to care at all, that's pretty common knowledge and not some fear of speaking out issue. There's plenty of online forums where they anonymously express themselves and widely mock and criticise the government yet you won't find many being about Xinjiang province other than what the West is reporting on it.
Have you spent much time on the Chinese internet?
So to go back to my question, if it's actually the people who support this, do you consider them the enemy too?
> So to go back to my question, if it's actually the people
> who support this, do you consider them the enemy too?
It's a tough one. There's a lot of misinformation and propaganda out there in China and until people have a balanced idea of what the various truths are, I don't know if it can be held against them. They are likely told that they are all extremists from the only authoritative source they have available to them, you can understand why they hold the views they hold (even if we would agree they are not nice views to hold).
That said, there are people out there that hold extreme views I don't agree with (in many different social circles/cultures). As long as they don't act on these ideas and are able to be productive members of society, then it's enough to agree to disagree.
In general we need a better approach towards radicalization, and for that in my opinion we should try to solve problems internally first. Western society for example has extreme far-right and extreme far-left minorities, it's not yet clear how we step these people back from the edge (i.e. violence).
This isn't unique to Chinese mainlanders. If you look at other countries: U.S, Sri Lanka, Israel, Brazil, France etc., you're going to find a significant portion of the population that seems to support far-right populism based on ethnic nationalism.
Look at Trump, who is currently attempting to push an anti-China narrative in the US, but still gave Xi Jinping the green light to build camps for the Uighurs, and said it was "exactly the right thing to do." [1]
Should we judge them? Are they our enemy? I don't know. But this seems to be a systematic bias that pervades humanity in general.
Please do note that is a John Bolton claim with no independent confirmation and denied by Trump. And no single nation - not even the US - has any power to give a "green" or "red" light to China currently.
The only way any pressure would work is with a league of nations applying sanctions.
This is one of the most cleanly straightforward and mature posts I've read on HN in awhile. And quite practical too, particularly that last portion. Also, agreed.
* * * But can you trust the source. It is after all a model, who's entire career revolves around faking appearances for the camera. A determined news team and a suitably sympathetic model could have produced a similar report on any story. Perhaps find a more credible source to support.
American prisons don't allow the UN in for inspections. (Maybe because the US was founded on slavery and never really got away from it so now relies on 2.2 million enslaved black people doing forced labor as a punishment for nonviolent drug crimes or inability to pay fines).
When making a claim like that, consider supplying a source. You could look it up, and tell us exactly what you've got in mind. Or you could make every one of us look it up, and even if we found something, we'd wonder if it was the same thing that you found convincing.
You not only stated an unsupported claim, you were also willing to waste many peoples' time to avoid wasting your own.
> His uncle ... believes the video could galvanise public opinion in the same way that footage of the police treatment of George Floyd became a powerful symbol of racial discrimination in the US.
The worrying thing is, protests like those for George Floyd won't be possible to happen within China, and even if they happen overseas, most people inside China won't even be aware of them.
With the information control in place, long lasting suppression against minorities is one of the most terrifying things that can happen.
Also turns out that the uncut bodycam footage leaked yesterday isnt damming evidence of racial anything in the case of George Floyd. The body footage shows a standard arrest gone bad because the suspect was currently overdosing on fentanyl and having a panic attack.
Hopefully some people start to feel a little bit embarrassed over there reactions and support of violent riots.
If you're interested in this topic, I strongly suggest you all read The China Crisis By: James R. Gorrie It provides amazing insight into what's happening in the region & what we can expect to see over the coming years.
The CCP has two things that keeps them afloat: Chinese nationalism (and lets admit that the US really is out to get them at this point) and the economy.
In 20 years China may very well be completely technologically independent rendering economic sanctions impotent and foreigners aren't going to be able to change any Chinese minds.
Change will have to come from within the CCP, it always amused me that those HK protesters were talking more to the foreign press than trying to infiltrate the mainland bureaucracy.
And I'm guessing if the West and Russia had waited, the Nazis would have stopped putting people in concentration camps too? The CCP is exactly the same party that still covers up the 1989 Tienanmen Square Massacre - they can't even admit their previous failings.
> it always amused me that those HK protesters were talking
> more to the foreign press than trying to infiltrate the
> mainland bureaucracy.
It's hard to find any amusement in the HK situation at all.
I am not aware of any scenario where the Communist dictatorship has listened to reason or has allowed the infiltration of it's mainland media. Their entire dictatorship is based on narrative - whilst it's positive, they stay in power over the people and army. Any deviation throws their rule into question, which is why they crush it at any cost.
You can use GitHub since it’s one of the few platforms (if not the only) that won’t be blocked in China and Microsoft is very unlikely to censor your repository.
WeChat and other social media will of course shadowban messages containing a link to your repo (assuming it become popular enough to be noticed) but you can find creative ways to bypass the blacklisting (e.g. share link in a picture, with spaces in the link, forking the repo and sharing the forked one, etc.)
Why do we think expats would be interested in this? What's the point anyway?
Shouldn't we use this evidence instead to wake people up on the impacts of consumerism?
Didn't we allow China to become what it is today due to how we buy things (all things are made in China today?) and how companies are constantly seeking to reduce costs and in some cases irresponsibly? What have we said to those companies?
This is the issue, it is not a matter of convincing the Chinese people their government is a problem it is a matter of convincing politicians in the Western world that China is truly a problem and pressuring corporations at stock holder meetings the same.
Both need to be told the same thing, doing business in China is not acceptable. Corporations can be forced to change course by stock holders and national or state governments, governments can only be changed by pressure on the political parties in each.
* I own both Tesla and Apple products, my statement on not buying an Apple product made in China needs to be expanded. I will not buy an Apple product or another Tesla until both leave China or the Chinese government changes direction; which I believe will only get worse if the believe the US government slides in weakness or non interventionist form
Just follow the works of "leading Xinjiang expert" Adrian Zenz, who is repeatedly mentioned in this BBC article and given huge amounts of airtime by news orgs around the world. By his own account he can't speak any dialect or read Chinese but he is the goto expert on the matter.
The main paper of his routinely quoted on by the media is published in the Journal of Political Risk. It mainly draws on Google translations of open source government data, there's strangely mentions of Bible verses in it.
You might also be interested in his main job as an evangelic missionary teaching theological students, his position at an anti-communism foundation with dubious funding sources, an online phd from a university with a very similar name as Cambridge (his wiki page even looks to the actual Cambridge), his homophobic statements, other statements on how he is on a mission from God to "save" China and his published book: "Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation"*
I'm not sure if it's worth debating this topic here on HN anymore because it's really becoming pointless and pure ideological propaganda where no one wants to debate in good faith (much like this article with basically nothing of substance, a guy got caught with weed and now has a call phone inside jail? Throw in some Adrian Zenz quotes and call it a day)
Previous threads have people boldly proclaiming with no evidence whatsoever that "_millions_ of Uyghurs have been sterilised in the last year, what has any other country done even close to that?", leaving the absurdity of that behind, the responses with numerous sources and good faith debate are CSS censored into oblivion.
This BBC article is propaganda, there's literally no any evidence whatsoever it's true, by their own words deep into the text. The public is being buttered up for yet another two decades of war, with Iraq WMD levels of proof of why it should happen and the populace lap it up again.
The UN Human Rights Commissioner was invited over a year ago[1] to Xinjiang, she still hasn't gone, China is still asking her to come and hopefully she'll make it by the end of 2020 [2]
Dozens of countries, many not even aligned with China have sent a joint letter to the UN [3] saying their investigations showed nothing like what is claimed in the Western media.
Muslim countries are praising their efforts to control terrorism in the region.[3]
Given your question, I'd ask a counter-question: Is it worth trying to convince people that's there's a lot more here than the headlines and it's far more about the challenge to US hegemony more than anything else? Why is everything presented always with some terrifyingly evil implication that's ends up generally quite mundane when you actually read into it.
There's more satellites than ever before (you can academically launch a 0.5U cubesat over China for $12,000) and yet no one seems to have any satellite evidence of these 1.5 million people supposedly detained. I'm guessing they're in caves or something? Everything presented is flimsy and speaks to a much larger game, a game many tacitly acknowledge deep down and think the ends justify the means, lies or not. WMD's or not, many somehow justify that travesty to themselves in a strange post-purchase rationalisation.
That loudspeaker broadcasting fun "facts" is an interesting way to reeducate captives. IIRC, the consensus among most Western experts is that this type of brainwashing isn't effective.
Perhaps, just a thought, that is because it's not intended for brainwashing as that term is usually used, but simple behavior modification. The difference being that it's not about inducing belief in the content of propaganda, but constantly underlining what beliefs it is acceptable to demonstrate outward compliance with, while other avenues demonstrate the cost of non-compliance.
The brainwashing doesn't happen to the people that are directly subject to it, but to the ones raised in an environment surrounded by people who, if they aren't true believers but are still around to be seen as models, have been cowed into behavioral conformance.
I don't know where you got “harmless nudging” from that description of it as part of a system of violent coercion of the immediate subjects that is long-game brainwashing directed beyond them, but, no.
It's just one component of indoctrination. China also has experiences with prior re-education and work movements. Xi himself was sent to Yunnan (Down to the Countryside Movement) the TLDR is he's a believer. Work camps work, especially on impressionable generations. That's how you create red guards, and why CCP has been trying to ram patriotic education down HK throats. I feel like west likes to reaffirm anecdotes from Chinese cabbies who bitch about the dark times, when in reality those times also forged many believers. People conflate failed economic reforms with failed indoctorination movements. China of that era had much better success re-engineering souls than development - the former merely requires rhetoric which is free, whereas the latter requires capital which is not. Neither words or capital are constraints anymore. Uyghurs also skew young being exempt from family planning policy, so reeducating the youngest generation will shift the entire regions sentiment in 10-20 years assuming the region receives commiserate economic development - hence the vocational training component.
I've been wondering how I could bring this up with the mainland Chinese I know. It's particularly difficult, because for some of them I'm in a supervisory/managerial role, but I don't want to put pressure on them, which would raise all sort of other ethical dilemmas and would likely not be effective. Anyone else can share experiences?
In a workplace environment, it is completely inappropriate.
Second of all, why? What do you wish to discuss? What would you like to happen? What do these people have to do with it?
If you're in the U.S., do you have anything useful to discuss regarding Guantanamo Bay and the many other U.S. black sites or the Mexican concentration camps run at the border? Do you think those are appropriate conversation pieces to bring up if they don't occur naturally? How would you feel if someone brought them up as if to teach you or make you aware of them as if you didn't know or had any affect whatsoever on their existence?
There is a comparable situation with Americans, many people are unaware of the Tulsa massacre, and the reaction I've seen from people first hearing about it is mostly anger at it not being taught.
Personally I'd be thankful to know of censored history, particularly if it is occurring and being censored right now, in a democracy.
Don't do that. Both are bad. The existence of one does not prevent the discussion of the other. Please do not try to derail or distract the discussion.
What? I learned about the Tulsa massacre, and another similar situation that I can’t remember (maybe in Florida?), in high school. How is it being censored?
I grew up in what would be called a progressive part of the US and was never taught about it. I felt angry and supremely let down by our education system that I only found out about this last week.
I've never met a single person who was not taught about that in school a decade or two ago, from a very conservative area. That is just my experience of course, but I do find it perplexing. Was this many decades ago that it was not taught, or in a specific area?
There are two outcomes:
1: They really will not know what you're talking about and think you're crazy and just hate Chinese people (this is common).
2: They will somewhat know what you're talking about, and have a massive list of bad things your country has done/is still doing, and you won't be happy (this is also common, but slightly less common)
If you were good friends, you can mention this and drop it and try to move on. If you're doing this at work, it won't end well for anyone involved, and it'll be doubly bad if you're in an authority position.
The outcomes will also give them a heightened sense of nationalism and feed into the idea that the West is just out to get China and Chinese people, which the media plays up quite a bit.
As an American, sitting down next to a European on vacation for more than a few minutes is never fun. Once they inevitably ask "Where are you from?", they follow it up with a lecture on American politics before I can even finish my sentence. It's tedious and it's nothing new.
It's probably way more frustrating for people having to listen to their boss lecture them at work about how screwed up a country they've never been to but you've lived your whole life in is. You're not in a position to just politely say "bye" and never see them ever again without any consequence. You certainly can't speak up against them because they're in a position of authority.
That's my worry too. A lot of us are very defensive now even to be reasonable. However it is hard to buy these videos if you were born and raised in China, simply because you understand the culture around it. For example there are a lot of Vloggers in Xinjiang https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRXnF42z1oMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3VGz4HFs_A
If you understand the language and culture the locals talk a similar way to the responses from the BBC video. And in the Vice video the locals even spoke for the secret journalists.
Also for mainland china everyone refers people from any ethnic background from Xinjiang a 'Xinjianger' not a singled out 维族人. I'm sure there are a lot of injustice but ethnic minorities are known to entitle a few 'privileges' such as carrying knives and not subject to one-child policy. Hence the cause of the inevitable unfair treatment and conflict (to be honest many policies are not up to modern liberal views). I'm not defending ccp ever, but I'm also shocked people knew very little about everything else.
I think this is an important point. Even if GP "open the eyes" of coworkers on the matter, there is absolutely no guarantee that they will side with the Western point of view. For a variety of reasons they might approve the government action, which will cause additional tension to an already rude situation, as explained by other posters.
> As an American, sitting down next to a European on vacation for more than a few minutes is never fun. Once they inevitably ask "Where are you from?", they follow it up with a lecture on American politics before I can even finish my sentence. It's tedious and it's nothing new.
Counter-anecdotally; I've never experienced this and in my workplace at least, the people who never stop talking politics are all American.
I think your argument here amounts to a form of internalized oppression and a bunch of unintentional sophistry that tries to legitimize it. Considering the history of computer science as a consequence of the Enlightenment, it is quite ironic how working programmers have had to become.
> They will somewhat know what you're talking about, and have a massive list of bad things your country has done/is still doing, and you won't be happy
Ignoring the "at work" part, you can then both realize that you should acknowledge and fight against any country doing bad things and that these bad things are not excused because other countries (or people) are also doing bad things. Two wrongs don't make a right.
If someone came up to an American abroad and demanded they attest for the detention centers on the border people would call that ridiculous. The idea this person is entertaining the idea of doing the same for Chinese people who work with them is just as much so.
Why would you want to bring that up with them specifically?
Not advocating that people should look the other way, but I wouldn't like superiors associating me with the deeds of the government of China.
It might have been a good idea to actually support the protests for freedom in Hong Kong, but the "west" looked extremely weak here, laden with its own problems.
edit: Just to clarify, I wouldn't bring up Hong Kong either...
In my experience a lot of the population is very anti-Uighur and they wouldn't care that much. In the run up to this people have been conditioned by images of violent protests in the region. They have been demonized as religious fanatics. Religion in of itself is a big no-no in China. You combine that with anti-Muslim sentiment and a different ethnicity and it's pretty easy to demonize a group.
To convince them you'd really have to go into details and explain just how unjust the whole ordeal is. Most pro-govt people's default assumption will be they're doing a good job taking care of bad people.
Even the notion that someone of a different religion and ethnicity who might not speak the language should be rightfully considered a Chinese citizen deserving all the same freedoms is a tough sell.
From a moral perspective, that's maybe one thing. From a legal it might be another - you might be construed as discriminating against them or harassing them based on their ethnicity, which is in fact valid; if they weren't chinese you wouldn't be discussing it with them. So in that sense I really would think carefully. In fact, don't.
If they bring it up themselves, for or against that slightly changes things but frankly if they're supportive of the oppression then doing anything other than telling them "keep that opinion to yourself" is a minefield. Taking them on will most likely blow up in your face. (edit: no 'most likely' about it. It will).
If they are against it and wish to discuss it with you and what to do, it's still a danger (I can't say why, more a feeling) and I'd advise them to contact/join an external group, or their MP/representative etc. and leave it at that. Shit like this discussed at work is bad news, I don't see how doing it can make things better.
Anyone who disagrees and can make a better suggestion, I'm very willing to learn from.
Edit: to those downvoters, I'm NOT saying don't discuss it, I'm saying don't do so at work. It is deeply unlikely anything helpful will come of for anyone, but it is very likely to damage your reputation or even lose you your job.
Speak up! Sure, but in the right place and to those whose job it is to make a difference.
What does it have to do with ethnicity? He said "mainland Chinese", which is a form of citizenship. I think that all sides would agree that a good fraction of people from Taiwan are ethnically Chinese. As far as I know, citizenship is not a protected class (outside of certain treaties).
As for it being a good idea... nope. I wouldn't put myself in a situation where the Chinese government calls my employer and politely asks them to reassign me to the Antarctic branch. It's not a democracy, normal citizens have no power, and expecting your coworkers to do so is putting them and yourself in danger.
It's still construable as an ethnicity, even in in fact it's just citizenship (but nice distinction). It doesn't have to be what is, only what can be construed in an unfriendly tribunal or court situation.
These are some of the thoughts I've been having as well. On the other hand I'm actually generally interested in how this situation is communicated in China? How much and what do they know about it (note that they left China some years ago).
I have to say I also find it chilling to say we can't discuss topics which have political implications for fear of it being construed of harassment. I have been frequently asked about political events/situations in Germany (where I come from), without it feeling like harassment at all.
"Just not at work" always sounds strange to me, a lot of people know all their friends and acquaintance exclusively from work, so when people is recommended to avoid talking about those issues with coworkers many times the result is for all practical purposes they are being told to avoid talking about the issue at all. I'm not sure what the solution is but "just not at work" doesn't seem to be it.
Work is for talking about work, not anything else. A few cordial off-topic comments here and there are fine, but if I have time to discuss politics at work that's time that I could have spent doing my job, and likely and subsequently more of my free time will be taken finishing up projects.
Talking politics == my free time, and I don't want to exchange my leisure hours for talking politics with my co-workers. The entire rest of your life can be talking about politics with your friends, your life shouldn't just be work.
It seems the real problem is too much of people's lives is work and so they think they have no time to talk politics.
> a lot of people know all their friends and acquaintance exclusively from work
What country is such a workers' paradise? De Tocqueville wrote that the US was a nation whose social life was composed of overlapping circles of voluntary associations, which sounds much more like the situation here than that (to my eyes) dystopic description (of a world where one's only relations are not only by a single path, but that path is tied to the economic), so I'm assuming you're living elsewhere.
Pro-life/anti-abortion people believe that they are fighting for human rights. Let’s say they start talking to people at work about it. If the conversation stays civilized, no big deal. But they don’t want to limit it to talking. This is about human rights how can you just sit there and do nothing? You’re complicit!
Now people are avoiding that person. Team cohesion suffers. People are calling in sick to avoid the stress of it all. Management is dealing with shit from both sides.
What would you do if you were running the company?
If you want to let people talk politics at work, you can’t just limit it to the politics you agree with.
XJ is interpreted as a counter-terrorism / COIN operation in China - aka War on Terror. Go look up Uyghur terrorism attacks in China on Global Terrorism DB, there's 100+ that stopped abruptly after XJ security architecture / Strike Hard campaign. Spreading to interior provinces including TianAnMen. Western MSM will report 2009 minority riots and probably stop there, but it was ongoing for until 2017s. Generally, you won't find much mainstream sympathy because Uyghurs were already getting massive affirmative action privileges, and the ones outside of XJ has reputation (right or wrongly) of being Chinese gypsies. You'll find more sympathy from Han in XJ, because they have to deal with apartheid, but even this sympathy is declining due to increased nationalism and domestic propaganda. Overall, average Chinese will find re-education strategy much more humane and western forever wars. And really like... 1-2 million is ~0.1% of the Chinese population. Statistically it's hard to convince them it's a big deal compared to US prison industrial complex. Sure it's whataboutism, but it's also math. The average Chinese is focused on covid recovery, and before that pork prices. XJ/Tibet is just not something on the radar, and there's enough domestic propaganda to counter western propaganda.
The bigger unsaid issue is US/Pompeo/China hawks has zero moral credibility in China. For Chinese, the XJ model - integrating Uighur rapidly is seen both as a "fairer" minority policy and more effective COIN model. As long as the west jails minorities disproportionately, and dropping bombs on weddings, there's no argument or propaganda to convince Chinese they're not making the better moral choice.
E: The even bigger unsaid issue, which every expert musing about the global implication of surveillance authoritarianism but won't publicly entertain is: what if XJ works? There's a reason China has 2X support of the XJ program than US can gather against, from majority Islamic countries no less. It's not just lol-debt trap. There are many parties interested in XJ model working. 80% of the world are flawed democracies or worse, and the overall trajectory is illiberal decline and increased geopolitical instability. There are more rulers who is invested in XJ working than not. The even larger issue than that? West doesn't have a alternative model, we've been flirting with incremental improvements over decade scales whenever our own "contradictions" force our hands, i.e. BLM. That's just not good enough.
Amazing hot take. Ethnically cleansing millions of people is A-OK as long as your country's population is large enough. That is prime wumaodang logic.
> XJ model - integrating Uighur rapidly
The Chinese model of "ethnocide" -- eradicating the religion, culture and written language of successive minority groups from Manchu to Tibetan, Uighur, Hlai, Zhuang, Oirat Mongols and hundreds of other groups -- is successful in creating a monolithic mass of resource and people subservient to the CCP, to better enrich the CCP Beijing princelings. So understandably it is heavily pushed by media domestically and by the wumao abroad. Nonetheless ethnocide is frowned upon as a crime against humanity these days in the rest of the world (and before you go whatabout on me, yes lots of other countries did it hundreds of years ago).
> [Muslim country support for Uighur genocide is] not just lol-debt trap
It's also lol-sanctions, lol-trade-war and lol-UN-veto-power, not to speak of the CCP siccing their asymmetric warfare units on you. Muslim countries don't mind pissing off EU or US because those don't bother to get into a pissing match these days (unlike in the cold war era). Mainland Chinese politicians however, are incredibly insecure, thin skinned and obsessed with "face", so any perceived insult and they fund some rival warlord or prince to coup you off the throne...
Good luck getting any population to care about repressing 0.1% for national security. Math education is good in China, people understand per-capita and more importantly understand the terrorism stopped. Nothing else matters. It doesn't hurt their geopolitical adversary jails more in relative if not absolute terms. This "world" of yours is 23 who signed a letter against XJ versus 54 who supports XJ. Reeducation narrative has firm lead. There's about 100 countries who just don't care. And ultimately only 1 whose doing anything about it, but for geopolitics, and not because it cares.
>ME fear CCP
What is this, opposite day? Muslim countries fear China's zero military experience and zero force projection ability versus actual bombs being dropped in ME right now by west? Authoritarian countries likes what China wants to sell. A global order where authoritarianism is seen as a valid alternative governance model, a raising power who actually doesn't sanction or regime change over human rights. About the only Chinese "win-win" benefit most parties unironically believe in. Oh, also China used the Veto least.
>Chinese politicians however, are incredibly insecure
At this point I don't know if you're writing to debate or writing to cope.
Understanding CCP Resilience: Surveying Chinese Public Opinion Through Time. July 2020
>We find that first, since the start of the survey in 2003, Chinese citizen satisfaction with government has increased virtually across the board. From the impact of broad national policies to the conduct of local town officials, Chinese citizens rate the government as more capable and effective than ever before. Interestingly, more marginalized groups in poorer, inland regions are actually comparatively more likely to report increases in satisfaction. https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7...
Sinicizating XJ will be mostly cultural genocide, which of course is immoral. Though many Uighurs will still remain Islamic but with Chinese characteristics - promoting religion is key Chinese foreign policy to connect with OBOR cultures. No, I'm not blind to it, nor to dumb western media spins, i.e. mass sterilization = 2 child policy. You can ask 1.3 billion Han how immoral one child policy and family planning was for the last 40 years. Hint: very.
The original question is how the situation is communicated and discussed in China. And I answered. You know how the west can talk about lots of issues like actual wars where we're aggressors, systemic racism that kept minority down or in jails etc with nuance? That happens in China on various topics too. At the end of the day, just like the west, many don't give a shit. Unlike the west, they can't really protest if they do. But even if they could, most probably wouldn't, because people irrationally and massively overreact to terrorism.
Hint: You didn't read the link. It has nothing to do with the N child policy. Here:
"The Chinese government has deployed a mass sterilization campaign against Muslim ethnic minorities in the country's western provinces, according to a new report, which argues the tactics could amount to genocide."
"Those camps are used as a form of threat and punishment, with officials detaining women and families who fail to comply with pregnancy checks or forced intrauterine contraceptive devices -- more commonly known as IUDs -- sterilizations, and even abortions."
> The original question is how the situation is communicated and discussed in China
I was responding to your delightful comment...
> what if XJ works?
And I pointed out your hideously lack of morality which is the point. So let's ask, how would you like it if your wife was sterilised against her will or had a forced abortion?
ANSWER THAT QUESTION PLEASE. Because that is what morality is about. If you don't like it, don't do it to others.
I did and I know much more bout the subject than you. China removing family planning policy exemptions for minorities like Uighurs started back in 2017 [1]. The policy was proposed back in 2014 [2] and was thoroughly discussed China watching circles. This is not a new policy change, and one Zenz should be aware of for at least 5+ years. I know I was. I also know this move is in context of new, 2nd gen minority policy and applies to all 55 minority groups. But he's only now conveniently claiming it's meeting the UN definition for genocide. By his definition 1.3B han has been going through more extreme one-child policy genocide for the past 40 years. To be blunt, it's another retarded Zenz hit piece coordinated with US sanctions, build up to magnitskying XPCC (2.5M paramilitary governing XJ) a few days ago.
I think family planning is necessary evil for China and new 2 child policy, i.e. replacement level is a good compromise for demographic and environmental stability. Ultimately China wants to settle at <1B ppl, which is a responsible position. I have no issue with uniform quota for everyone - minorities previously had +1 child. Where the world is heading, I'd rather cultures concede to population control than vice versa.
E: Apparently applying too fast. It should make the CCP look the same way it did for the last 40 years of one-child policy. Only ones that look bad are useful idiots believing Trump + Pompeo uncritically. I wouldn't have 2 children if the family planning policy is to have 2 children. I would be in a partnership with someone that accepts that. And to be extra clear: necessary evil = I endorse.
My suggestion is that you shouldn't bother. The Chinese people would not believe the Western media narrative on Xinjiang (XJ), which also doesn't really have credible sources if look deeper into their "facts" [0]. And it is increasingly clear that the XJ narrative is a US-backed propaganda rather than factual reporting [1]. Most of us would consider the western people being brainwashed into believing whatever the media puts out about XJ, just as much as the English speaking westerners think about us. Please ponder about this: can I, as a Chinese, easily change your media-fed opinion on XJ? Yet I am trying my best here (because I procrastinate).
The video shown by the BBC about the official visit to the vocational training center implants a subliminal message of "bad things are happening here" with eerie BGM and horror-movie-like filter. Your system 1, i.e. your fast, instinctive and emotional mind [2] would also be tricked by that too. Regardless of what's happening there, do you really think this is the way of objective, bias-free reporting?
Personally, I do not like the way they train these people. Westerners would never understand this culturally. But when compared to the war effort instigated by the US against Islamic nations, vocational training is IMHO a much better alternative against terrorism. XJ used to have a terrorism problem, and it's now much safer.
I would suggest you guys to travel in XJ after opening up, if possible, it is an incredible place to visit. If not then there are plenty of local people on youtube vlogging their daily lifes.
People here need to be able to express their views and respect each other, even across broad national/ethnic/ideological gaps. Someone disagreeing with you about China is not evidence that they're a communist agent or anything of that nature, and it's poisonous, degrading, and frankly dumb to make posts to that effect.
Rather, what's going on is that this community is large, diverse, and full of people with different backgrounds. We need to hear each other, not abuse each other.
If you'd like more explanation, I've written about this extensively:
No, this is not because I'm secretly a communist. It's because you can't attack others like this on HN. For plenty of past explanation see these links:
Well I'm Chinese and have positive personal experiences in China, so I'm pro-China.
If you're going to base your questions on the premises that I do not agree with, and do not give your reasonings, then there is no way to engage in productive conversation.
Tip: you don't have to be pro-CCP to realize that (mainstream) Western reporting on China is frequently very focused on a handful of stories and discards a lot of information that doesn't fit.
Don't. There's nothing they can do about it. The CCP will disappear them if they try. Don't put them at risk by even talking to them about it.
This is a problem to be handled at the diplomatic level between govts, by govts concerned about human rights abuses using various forms economic and diplomatic leverage and pressure to effect change. You can pressure your own govt to do that if want.
It's a losing battle. Without going into workplace relationships, the public perception of the Chinese population to their government is overwhelmingly positive. I've experienced it in my own friends and relatives, even those who have gone to university in North America for degrees like law. For an outsider without cultural understanding, it's nearly impossible.
It's hard to change minds when the education system doesn't support free thinking that challenges authority, when identity is caught up with national pride and the us vs them mentality. That's why it's important to use language like CCP instead of China to separate the people from the government.
The most common defense is whataboutism. Talk about Uigher camps in Xingjiang or the Hong Kong protests? "But America has racism, and police beatdowns." The argument against democracy is that the people aren't educated enough to handle voting, for example and bring up covid cases in the US.
I had a conversation a while back with my cousin, who didn't like Morey's (NBA GM) comments about Hong Kong and supported the Rockets ban.
me: "But it's his personal opinions, can't he say what he wants?"
cousin: "No, because he's a known person. It's like Xi saying California isn't a part of the US."
cousin: "That's fine, because everybody knows it's not true. We'll just think he's dumb."
cousin (jokingly): "that's just the cultural difference between east and west"
Unfortunately, it's hard to bring up any real nuanced conversation, and especially hard to change any minds. (i.e. like how none of the HK protestors key demands were to actually separate, something many people in China thought)
On one extreme, you don't know if they tend to distrust Western media while trusting Chinese state media. If it is important not to compromise your relationship with them, don't pass off any of the news as your opinion, but report about the Western reporting on the Uighurs, trying also not to signal that you trust these reports or these media outlets.
I think it’s perfectly normal in companies to share news and whatnot in various group chats. We often share news related to Xinjiang, Hong Kong, the virus, BLM, Trump, etc. We don’t all share the same political views, but we’re all adults.
It's atrocious what the CCP under Xi is doing. And it's dismaying that other quasi-authoritarian countries are taking note. From Basil Rajapaksa (part of the political family in Sri Lanka responsible for various war crimes during the civil war):
“I want our party to be a party like the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and how they act... We have learned from many political parties in the world. The best two are the BJP and CCP.” From http://www.newswire.lk/2020/07/30/basil-wants-slpp-to-become....
That was the problem in the beginning though, waging a separatist war. It's why all this started when a lot of Uyghurs came back from Syria after fighting for ISIS.
Do you think more of those bombing campaigns, taking hostages at police stations and throwing hand grenades out of cars into busy market bazaars will improve the situation for the people of Xinjiang?
I'm saying it's not a good idea. Just like the Rohyingyas who the West cheered on and waxed lyrically about their treatment for years, when push comes to shove no one did a thing to either take in the refugees or pressure the tiny weak impoverished government to stop committing genocide against them and their rebellion. If the West won't stand up to Burma, what do you truly think they're going to do against nuclear armed China, the second largest economy on Earth?
It's all well and good to have ideals, but don't pretend they apply in the real world of politics.
Feel free to say your country will take in a hundred thousand Uyghurs to free them, we all know it won't happen. The UK somehow has space for a million people from HK but there's no way on Earth they'd take 1% of that from Xinjiang province.
Words are cheap. Just ask the Rohingyas how they are fairing in 2020.
And don't forget what's happening to Falun Gong practitioners in China [0][1]. Although I can't be sure, from observation it seems to me like this information is still more heavily embargoed both in China and beyond. The persecution of Uighurs is getting China a lot of heat internationally but domestically it doesn't seem to be as disruptive.
Demonizing Uighurs has been much easier given their different ethnicity, religion and effective confinement to a given region. It's easy for people to assume this will never affect them. With Falun Gong you're dealing with millions of members of the mainstream Chinese society who have been subject to all this and worse.
…that doesn't mean they don't. Pregnant women are routinely handcuffed while giving birth. If you want to see the peak in inhumane treatment of prisoners, go to any American prison south of the Mason–Dixon. Forced feeding, solitary confinement, executions, no foreign investigations (the US won't let the UN inspect American prisons), single-ingredient dietary plans as punishment – I've seen a lot of it working with a local prison abolitionist group for the last few years.
I have to say he has really developed his show into an excellent mix of education and entertainment. I used to not like him very much (didn't like his type of humor), but I learn something every time I watch one of his shows, even if it covers a topic I'm already quite familiar with.
The comparison of the situations of the Uighurs and the African Americans is straight out of the CCP propaganda playbook. The Soviet Union used to run stories about racism in the US.
As an American, as terrible as the Chinese actions against the Uighurs in Xinjiang are I still feel we should prioritize ending our nearly twenty year long war in neighboring Afghanistan.
We've created millions of refugees, caused over a hundred thousand people to die, and committed numerous human rights violations. Yet the press coverage it gets mostly centers around how we dropped the "mother of all bombs" on them or how disgusting it is to hold peace talks with the Taliban in September.
And for all the calls of "whataboutism" this is likely to raise, if we are unable to fix our own problems our attempts to fix China's are unlikely to benefit anyone.
You're completely right, but it's not going to stop the campaign against China, because human rights are not the issue. If it was, people would be out in the streets protesting all day against business done with Saudi Arabia. And people would also protest daily against the human rights violations perpetrated by the US around the world (the UN hasn't lift a finger about that either). The whole goal of the campaign is to raise popular support for a commercial campaign and maybe even a war against China.
Plenty of people are protesting against business with Saudi Arabia. The reason you see so much anti-China sentiment is likely a result of China having managed to become a part of the lives of people in western countries.
Oil states play a huge role in the lives of people who follow football due to UAE/Qatar having ownership of large clubs, similarly, there have been a lot of protests with regard to the 2022 FIFA World Cup which will take place in Qatar.
Another example is the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi.
That you can make this post without mentioning the continued US/Saudi war on Yemen largely proves their point. People care when oil states are involved in a sport they follow or a US residents life. What is happening to millions of people in Yemen doesn't register.
I would say it proves my point. Most people couldn’t care less about what happens outside their borders unless the country responsible also do things that impact their life. No on gives a damn when North Korea starve its citizens to death, subject them to hard labor and execute them left and right. But the western world care a lot when they imprison/torture a western citizen.
Similarly, no one cares about China kidnaping girls from neighboring countries to force them into marriage/prostitution in China. But people care a lot when China force gaming companies to censor their games and ban western citizens playing western games in a western country because they write “Free Hong Kong” in the chat.
I will remind you that this thread is about what is happening with the Chinese Uighurs, a group that has no impact on Western lives.
>Most people couldn’t care less about what happens outside their borders unless the country responsible also do things that impact their life
The US is the country responsible here. US military commanders have said that the war in Yemen would end tomorrow without US assistance, and the US declared war on Afghanistan.
It does because these Uyghurs are subjected to hard labor where they’re producing goods for Nike, Gap, H&M, Amazon, Puma, etc. It’s a lot harder to look past these things when you know they’re happening (similarly to how it’s hard for football fans to look past the slave labor used for the World Cup in Qatar). The fact that their treatment feels equivalent to the holocaust makes it even worse.
It also adds great frustration/anger when western companies fight for human rights in USA while they stay silent on China’s human rights issues (and even censor western citizens voicing support for them).
> does because these Uyghurs are subjected to hard labor where they’re producing goods for Nike, Gap, H&M, Amazon, Puma, etc.
I have not heard these allegations of slave labor surrounding these internment camps. Maybe you're thinking of US prisons.
>The fact that their treatment feels equivalent to the holocaust makes it even worse
I'm still not defending China here, but their actions seem limited to cultural genocide not actual genocide. The US treatment of Muslims in Yemen is far worse.
Already happened many times. A recent example is the BLM protests that took place all over the world. There has also been a lot of protests against Trump, including the famous baby balloon that was seen during his UK visit.
You are mistaken, BLM around the world is not a protest against the US, it is a protest for better treatment of black people everywhere. People in the occident don't have guts to protest the US, unless it is coming from some left wing party that is then viewed as extremist.
I’m afraid you’re mistaken. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Lives_Matter. There are also many western countries that don’t have a problem with police brutality and racially motivated violence against black people who still took the streets to show solidarity with the African-American people.
It’s also ridiculous to believe other western countries don’t have the guts to protest the US considering the largest protests in recent years (in western countries) have involved USA (primarily BLM and Trump) rather than China.
>It’s also ridiculous to believe other western countries don’t have the guts to protest the US considering the largest protests in recent years (in western countries
Name one "western" country that has elected an anti-US government. Places like Venezuela and Bolivia have, and the response has been US coup or US coup attempts.
Name one western country that have elected an anti-China government and say why you think their opinion/action towards China had any influence on them willing the election.
I’m guessing you can’t, because quite frankly, USA is the only western country that have done something meaningful to stand up to China. If Trump gets re-elected then I’ll agree that his anti-China stance and actions won him a significant amount of votes (enough to be deciding factor in him beating Biden), but unless that happens then you’ll have a hard time convincing anyone that a western government rose to power as a result of their anti-China stance.
>Name one western country that have elected an anti-China government and say why you think their opinion/action towards China had any influence on them willing the election.
Every non-Russia UN security council state from the 50's to the mid 70's. Because they were "fighting back the forces of Communism."
Or, as you mention, the Chinese menace has been a constant selling point of the Republican party for thirty years, though Bush did not aggressively pursue it. McCain was openly racist towards China, his coments are truly disgusting.
So, when are these countries going to start boycotting the US government? Maybe still during this millennium? I wouldn't hold my breath. These are the same countries that sat down watching while the US practiced apartheid until the 60s.
When are these countries going to start boycotting China? USA under Trump is quite frankly the only western country that has taken meaningful action to stand up to China.
USA also benefits from the fact that it’s a democracy (admittedly a very flawed one, especially compared to e.g. the Scandinavian countries), so if they elect a madman then other countries only have to endure 4-8 years (and his/her power is significantly restricted compared to Xi Jinping and other dictators).
Take a look at the map of the world, then draw a line from Xinjiang to Iran, then from Iran to Moscow and Amsterdam then from Moscow to Berlin.
Now imaging those lines being the guiding lines for the Belt and Road infrastructure projects to import and export goods into and from China.
Then see where the US and the "coalition of the willing" aka Anglo sphere has propped up chaos, invaded or placed military bases.
From Afghanistan and Iraq the US can attack/sabotage infrastructure projects in the surrounding areas and the US hasn't really been secret about it.
The US is now in its imperial decline stage question is will it be a slow decline like the Byzantine empire or will it go down like the western roman empire.
With going down i mean having to share the world with other players and not be the global hegemony.
I don't really need to know more, US has concentration camps on its southern borders and the EU is paying other nations to hold concentration camps for refugees.
For the rest its all media framing, only time will tell how the world will develop in a post-covid19 and unipolar world.
One thing i have learned is that the world is simpler and stone cold through a geopolitical lens.
> As an American, as terrible as the Chinese actions against the Uighurs in Xinjiang are I still feel we should prioritize ending our nearly twenty year long war in neighboring Afghanistan.
I think it's a false choice, because there is nothing a citizen one can do for either that inhibits doing the other; they are complementary, rather than conflicting, goals.
I disagree. Fixing the mistreatment of Afghanistan requires voting for politicians committed to changing US foreign policy. Changing China's policy involves staying the current course of using military and financial pressure to force countries into doing what we want.
So the videos are... made on a set that Westerners set up, using movie type effects? Or does China want people to believe they are doing this to... make for chilling effects without actually committing the atrocities?
The first is a positive assertion I'm acertaining because you stated this is Western Propaganda. If this is true, better start looking for evidence of this operation, because a single assumption that phones can't possibly get in is a pretty tenuous basis to create this positive assertion.
The BBC has a bad record. They visited the Xinjiang Education Camp. Although interviews were allowed, they used various shooting and editing techniques to make this school look dark, distorted, and scary. Then the content of the filming showed that this was only a skill training school. Until the end, they did not give up and hoped to take evidence of lying, but the scene of Xinjiang people leaving the education camp showed that the interviewee did not lie.
So what strong evidence does this article have? A few photos and two screenshots of the chat. This is too easy to forge and can't explain much.
I propose a hypothesis: the protagonist once had a job, but he was arrested for selling marijuana (mentioned in the article). After he was released from prison, he could not find a decent job, because companies are generally unwilling to recruit people with criminal records. When he was facing financial pressure, the BBC approached him and asked him to take a few photos (and some props), then forged some chat records to help make up stories. Now he has a new job, BBC actor.
I think this hypothesis is likely to be true, but I will soon be labeled as a brainwashed person or a robot. I saw that many people here saw the BBC report, and instead of thinking about its authenticity, they directly began to scold how bad the CCP was, and then downvote all different opinions. I found it ridiculous.
It's interesting that you believe he was arrested once but cannot believe that he was arrested twice. If the pictures and chatlogs were from his first stint in prison, would you believe it then?
Many anti-CCP actors have criminal records. Maybe they have a difficult life after having criminal records, so they become actors.
I can't imagine how the prisoner got a phone, so I don't believe this was filmed in prison.
The point is not whether he was arrested or not, but he accused the CCP of torturing Uyghurs. This is completely illogical. China has 56 ethnic groups, and all of them are Chinese nationals. Torturing will only cause resistance, and the CCP has no reason to do such things that are not conducive to stability.
The reasonable explanation is that some Western countries hope to create an image of the CCP abusing Uyghurs and then sanction China.
If that was reasonable then there wouldn't be any problem with letting us check, no?
I'm from Germany, this looks exactly like the thing we reiterate 'never again' on. What would you have done, looking at Germany in 1940? The sad truth is, most people would do nothing, and that is something we try to work against.
As mentioned earlier, the BBC visited the education camp, but found no evidence of abuse and had to use filters and editing techniques to instill ideas into the audience.
I'm sorry, this is not enough. We need a competent neutral and trusted third party to verify the truth thoroughly if we want to make sure. Statements of the Chinese government concerning this matter are not trustworthy. Statements of people under the power of the Chinese government are not trustworthy enough.
I understand the country of China to be a great nation of many achievements and many internal challenges that I cannot begin to understand. Just.. this looks very similar to the greatest horrible mistake my country and ancestors committed, a grave crime against us all as humanity that must be prevented everywhere. It's a slope, you don't start with the death camps. (Have a look at our history, if you will [0].) Things like this need to be stopped as early as possible, it will only become harder. It is not becoming of any nation to have something like this in their history, doubly so if they're such a great nation with long past and achievements.
1. The burden of proof shall be borne by who making the claim. I have pointed out that the evidence in this article is very easy to forge and not convincing. It is not to look for evidence that abuse does not exist, but to provide evidence that abuse exists.
2. The mistakes made by Western countries do not mean that China will make the same mistakes. Everyone here has learned about German concentration camps from middle school textbooks, so there is no need to introduce it to me.
Western media often use these two mistakes to fabricate lies that have no evidence but are easy for people in the Western world to believe.
In this thread, I have seen people angry and threatening to retaliate against China, which is very dangerous to the whole world. I understand that your post is out of good intentions, please take my post as a kind warning:
1. I do think there are enough hints and reports to justify further investigations. If they are unfounded, fantastic, that is the best outcome.
2. No, of course not. But someone will make the same mistake at some point, because it is human. We need to stay vigilant. This kind of thing can happen again and again all over the world.
> In this thread, I have seen people angry and threatening to retaliate against China, which is very dangerous to the whole world.
I agree that this is very dangerous. Then again, I don't believe anything drastic will happen as long as China does not outright start a war, which hopefully I'm right about not happening (which is what did not occur in Germany - if not for that the Nazis might still be in power).
Thank you for the warning, I'll keep it in mind. Hate is far from our general sentiment about it for me and the people around me though. You don't need to be an evil hated person or group to allow this to happen, as I said, it's human. And again, China even recently did some great things, such as lifting large parts of its population out of dire poverty, which is an amazing feat.
Of course it's not China or the CCP torturing Uyghurs. Rather, it's individual Chinese prison guards (who may or may not be in the CCP or Uyghurs or both) torturing individual Chinese prisoners (who may or may not be in the CCP or Uyghurs or both).
The CCP leadership may intend prison to be places of transformation instilling a sense of gratefulness for the CCP's benevolent rule, thus requiring prisoners to be treated well, kept in good health, provided with a good education so they will be able to earn a living after release doing honest work rather than having to work as actors or whatever...
But that costs a lot to implement and who's going to implement it? Inexperienced prison guards who were just recently hired when the state increased it's security budget in Xinjiang and who didn't go to a police academy where they learn fancy stuff like "torturing people may make them rat out their friends and earn you a promotion for making your arrest quota, but in the long term it fuels resentment and destabilizes the country, so don't do it" since there aren't enough of those graduating each year, and you may recall that the whole reason re-education is even necessary is that the education system in Xinjiang failed to properly instill Socialist Values like patriotism and democracy and so on, so why would it have succeeded at instilling the idea that torture is bad?
This is fairly likely sent from his own phone - WeChat requires you to verify via various forms of 2-factor to log in on a new phone. He also states that it's own phone in the report.
Sigh, more Zenz quotes and his "credible" estimates.
>A few days later, the prisoners were loaded onto minibuses and sent away to an unknown location.
It would be trivially easy to strip out the meta data and geo-locate his location to match buildings across to see if it's an actual detention site. But naw, unknown location and unverifiable documents. The sad thing is the psyops aren't very good, the audience is just that stupid.
Edit: just to clarify, the camps exist. But any article that requires Zenz for substantiation should be by default discredited. The bar for ascertaining the scope of the camps is not difficult, just geospatially catalogue all 1,200 camps Zenz claims to exist. US + allies clearly have the resources and Trump already leaked USA224 capabilities. The fact that MSM has to repeatedly use Zenz commentary is incredibly telling. Also ignore millions of social media posts from XJ showing facts on the ground. At least they talked to Darren Byler this time.
The issue with the USA224 for circulation of media in the public (call it propaganda or propaganda busting, not relevant) is that it states pretty clearly "As the Military of the United States, we have a problem with you, China". That's getting pretty close to a declaration of war.
Edit: OK strictly it is not operated directly by the military, but by an intelligence organisation. The line here is a bit blurry though, as the imagery is clearly used for military purposes.
I was just being cute with USA224. The context is Zenz claims there are ~1,200 facilities to account for 1-3M detentions (not concurrent), but the only credit analysis by ASPI could only identify 180. ASPI is another very pro US, AU based think tank with funding from US MIC.
We're _3+ years_ into this thing and it seems like western interests have zero incentive to have a proper accounting of the situation, which is getting unalterably suspicious. Instead consistently rely on atrocity porn from interviewees who change testimonies and quotes from Zenz or other biased reporting. i.e ASPI also did study on Uyghur for sale, but omits context that the lowest compensation they could find basically extrapolates to entry level wage at Foxconn and significantly higher than backwater prefectures (Hotan) prisoners are from.
If the "somewhere in between" narrative between mass genocide and just re-education / vocational training camps is: less than 0.1% of China is being forcefully indoctrinated for lower middle class wages, then the entire western muh "human rights" campaign collapses. So here's more Zenz, non-compelling testimony, previously debunked organ harvesting / holocaust claims so susceptible western audiences can project their own Godwin law delusions onto. Also XJ is a blackbox, except the social media flowing out of it that we won't report on. Otherwise what's happening in XJ is just boring cultural genocide with more cameras and spread sheets, which to be blunt, is geopolitically unactionable.
The BBC is not a state media company. According to Wikipedia, “The BBC is a statutory corporation, independent from direct government intervention, with its activities being overseen from April 2017 by the BBC Board and regulated by Ofcom.”
This is clearly visible given that politicians keep arguing that it is biased towards the other side.
> No need to believe state media companies like BBC that never questioned the narrative in the "free" world.
While not so much as, say, the Guardian, I remember the BBC questioning the US/UK government narrative, and indeed outright refuting it on a number of points. It's been quite a while, ISTR it was the BBC was one of the earlier (at least of the large number of news sources I was then following) carried the detailed breakdown of how the supposed WMD trailers were, and were known by both the British and American governments to be, systems for inflating and deploying weather balloons that had been sold to Iraq by the British government in the 1980s.
> China will win hearts, propaganda will lose.
The two statements are incompatible. You probably mean to replace the second with “Chinese propaganda will win.”
> No major Muslim country says anything about China
A lot of them are looking to China to counterbalance other regional threats, and others (notably Malaysia) have overtly expressed concern about China's actions towards the Uighurs but also explicitly said they can't take a stand on the issue because of the risk of provoking China.
> Should make you question everything the mainstream "free" world narrative says about China.
Why should the “free world” saying the same thing as Muslim countries that aren’t trying to seek Chinese support for geopolitical reasons, but louder because they aren't under meaningful immediate threat by China, make me question what they are saying?
Downvote me for this - If you're using China-made products, you're responsible for the bugger balls of CCP, unethical/illegal selling of human organs and what not.
They are no different from a radical terrorist organization.
> If you're using China-made products, you're responsible
What sort of limits do you have to this statement? You're posting this on a forum. Have you checked the country of origin of the servers and components used by the telecoms for their equipment between you and those servers?
That's a straw man though. Nobody said you need to be perfect, however there are enough products where we know exactly where they made and still ignore the human rights violations, maybe that's a good start.
It seems to me that the original comment did indeed say you have to be perfect, and that you’re complicit with China’s worst abuses to the degree that you aren’t. I’m all in favor of boycotting China, but it seems extraordinarily counterproductive to say that anyone who’s not currently boycotting is a bad person.
We are on HN and even here everyone will have issues identifying the make and even harder, the mining of the raw material in their phones, computers, lightbulbs. It is really not so easy to not buy from China. Maybe the end product is from Taiwan or Thailand or whatever, it still contains quite a lot of components from China. Which would make you what, a terrorist? It will take time and effort and yes, actual money (you will probably pay more) to change this. And we are on HN. Go talk to random people on the street about it.
To those complaining about the anti-China narrative, it's the CCP (government) which are at fault, not the people. I think we should always make it very clear that it's not the Chinese people we take issue with and we are not condemning people based on race.
As for actions taken against China and masquerading behind human-rights to justify them, I think it's okay to temporary align ourselves with those whose actions align with our ideology, even if the motivation is different. Life is about compromise and we're going to find very few allies if we will only work with people perfectly aligned with our own motivations.