Lets look at the larger picture.
India outlawed untouchability the day constitution was adopted. No ambiguity, no ifs or buts. Not just that, state and people adopted corrective measure to reverse years of discrimination in the form of reservations. Reservations continue to this day and have only increased. Please give me some example where people have gone to this extend to correct historical social injustice. Not a single person I have met in my life denies that cast system is problem needs to go away. I have seen real change in people's attitude. Cast for the most part has vanished from daily life of majority of Indians. You can see its predominance today mostly in marriage. It will fade away with time as well.
Indian election system has continuously improved over the years. Election violence has reduced the minimum and power transition is always peaceful.
Upward mobility has improved. Many government services have improved tremendously. I can go on and on. Point is everything is improving albeit not at the China's pace. But I will take freedom that I enjoy here anytime over somewhat faster development pace.
I won't disagree with you, but would rather give people some context who are reading your comment and have never lived in India.
Like everything else in India, even this phenomenon exists in extremes. There are cities like Bangalore/Delhi/Hyderabad (almost all Tier 1 cities) where the IT sector flourishes, the concept of caste is almost invisible; bear in mind this is coming from someone who is from those lower castes.
Then you have other places where it is still socially accepted. My parents home in one of northern states is one of them. Communities/small villages are clustered based on castes, people might be forbidden from entering certain places like temples. Caste based marriages are still the norm there. It's certainly improving, but it takes time like everything else. My father still lives there and occasionally tells me about how things are changing, for instance he recently told me about a Muslim family who have been living there for the past decade, something that might not have been possible even 20-30 years ago.
> There are cities like Bangalore/Delhi/Hyderabad (almost all Tier 1 cities) where the IT sector flourishes, the concept of caste is almost invisible; bear in mind this is coming from someone who is from those lower castes.
I haven't had the "caste conversation" with my Indian friends for a few years now, but last time I did, they all said marrying outside of their caste would never be accepted by their parents. Friends from Mumbai, Delhi and Pune all said the same. Have things really changed so much in the past 5-10 years?
Preferring marriage within the same cast has to do more with having partner from the same cultural/family norms and practices. You see, Indian society is quite old (thousands of years); there are lot of customs re ways of worship, deities, dresses, eating/etc. that have evolved over this period and people (mostly parents) prefer a match in that regard. Because mostly marriages are arranged by parents (though in cities at least, love marriage has also become a common place thing.)
And if you talk to Americans, many of their parents would not accept if they came out as gay. That doesn't mean human rights are not advancing in the US, it just means that the previous generations have a hard time letting go of their bigoted beliefs.
Whoah there, I didn't say there hasn't been progress; I was asking a question in relation to "the concept of caste is almost invisible", because several Indian friends from different cities have told me otherwise
Is this a meme? Have you actually spent time in India? Caste based discrimination is illegal, so the country isn't "enforcing" any of it. In fact, there are several measures to counteract discrimination (like reservations, which is a whole other topic).
This just seems like a poor, uneducated opinion for the likes of HN.
I don't think I'm doing anything close to what you're suggesting, except merely saying caste system isn't a state policy enforced by the government. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the society.
> Why are you doing a 'not all men', 'i have black friends' thing here?
> If you're a brahmin then please stop talking for the victims of your very own system.
This is not a level of discussion I want to engage in. It's neither informative nor productive.
News these days isn't something you can trust blindly. Many a times, fake stories have been planted for political motive/social unrest. Suddenly before election lynching stories start to pop up, see the pattern and understand the motive behind.
> A low caste guy was shot dead last week for entering a temple.
Check the last paragraph in that news:
> However, SP Amroha Vipin Tada denied the father’s charges saying that the initial report suggests of a dispute between Vikas’s elder brother and the accused over money. The police maintained that the murder was the result of an altercation between the two accused, and the elder brother of the deceased, over a sum of Rs 5,000.
As I also found that the president related news you share was also proven false. I can only tell you again that not everything you are reading these days is a truth. If you keep a certain prospective, the world will appear exactly like that to you whichever way you see because your mind looks for and rejoices in validation of its beliefs/opinions.
I'm not saying there's no castism - there's always some sort of discrimination in every society as human beings mostly behave as selfish and unkind due to their insecurities and prejudice. But voices against are also far easier to express and be heard these days.
However, if you fuel anger and hatred in you, you're only going to get bitter and restless. which will waste your energies which you could otherwise spend in more meaningful/productive activities that uplift people you care about.
Plus not everything is black and white, no matter how much we want to see it that way. For instance, many Brahmans are also in very bad condition in India. There's a prospective that if you read with an open mind, can be useful. Found that here: https://www.ifih.org/ThePlightofBrahmins.htm
In current time the opportunities are endless. By being positive and productive, we can grow India and the world into a beautiful place, fighting, denigrating and blaming each other will only delay that.
India is striding away from these practices. The ground reality is quite different today, unfortunately, the outside world has this impression from historic books or articles about India which are largely outdated now. There is very little information on the internet regarding the improvements and the shift of the young generation here in India away from such practices.
The above list is a sparsely updated list of caste crimes in India. What do you mean casteism is outdated? A dalit and a brahmin are equal in this society?
You yourself are the perfect example of an Indian that has refused to accept such traditions and have criticized it openly. This was the improvement I was talking about.
There cannot be an overnight change but I believe the change is happening.
Oh Sorry no. Im fortunate enough to be born in Tamil Nadu, South India where caste system was fiercely fought against starting from the 50s. It has helped our society to grow more or less equally. Not just upper castes.
Millions of Indians have criticised this in the past and continue to do so. To deny casteism in India is like denying racism in the USA. The systems/power structure has not changed. The same old rotten filth continues to decide our lives and sorry we are not privileged enough to be free from caste oppression if we hang out with upper caste friends.
I lived in India in the 80s. Hindu fundamentalists drove home ideas of caste-ism to exploit the populace. The southern states luckily called out “Brahmanism” and their populace didn’t suffer quite as much. Under Modi, it’s like history repeating itself.
The PRESIDENT is a dalit man. It would have been impossible for him to become the president two/three decades ago. This shows that we have indeed improved in certain aspects. It's true that a lot of work still remains.
That temple incident is certainly bad and many social evils still persist in the society. The only way to quickly get rid of them is to have a China style 'cultural revolution', which involves destroying temples and other religious sites. But I guess it's not something which will go well with any Indian.
I think they meant that having a Dalit man be presidett is proof that there has been some progress, same as Obama's presidency in the US. That showed that progress has been made in the battle against racism, even if it certainly doesn't mean that racism is over.
The president is not an elected post but a selected post. They selected a dalit exactly for this reason the person above states. For tokenism. The current govt is a Hindutva ideology based govt meaning they literally believe Dalits are just lower humans. The president from a dalit community was just tokenism.
Please ignore their reply. Our Prime minister, which is the most powerful position in the country, is also from a 'lower class'. They're deliberately giving it a negative spin as it suits their policial viewpoint.
I understand that possibility, but their reply is still right in that a named position is fundamentally different than an elected position, which I assumed the president to be. That of course does NOT mean that someone being named to such a position is automatically tokenism.
Im not sure if this is the case. India is transforming the caste system into modern form rather than striding away. There is still systemic discrimination happening across India based on caste. It is predominant in rural india than urban.
For ex: caste based marriages and honour killings are best example for these instances.
Indian urban liberals try their best but they don't know the reality on ground
Sorry, but this is an irresponsible conclusion. Today's "untouchables" are largely due to socioeconomic class differences rather than systemic caste oppression, which has been outlawed for a while.
The same inequality is growing quickly in the USA when you consider the percentage of wealth the 1% has.
> The Hindu caste/social grouping system tells millions of people that they are contaminated and their fate is doomed upon birth.
Sure, maybe 100 years ago. But attitudes have been changing and there are numerous government programs designed specifically to bring up those in "lower castes" with the ultimate goal of equality for everyone. Indian culture is still very different from Western culture and far deeper ingrained into the average person. Change does not happen overnight. Everything happening in India in a broader view points to a trend of more equality and freedoms, not less. More governmental programs seek to address issues of inequalities, especially caste discrimination, than at any prior point in Indian history. Of course there are still issues, I won't argue there are no flaws, but calling it a Semi Slavery society these days is delusional at best, malintent at worst.
India can never be a superpower until we are born inequal at birth!
There will be growth only in a society which has some sort of equality.
Anyone can look at the amount of upper castes in positions of power, land ownership share and executive positions in the country. You have to compare it with the population distribution among castes and you'll see the inequality immediately.
The main problem here is that it's not even in the mainstream public discourse cause the narrative is always set by the upper castes.
People were trending black lives matter as if they care about humanity. It was so hypocritical!
This won't stop unless caste is uprooted from the society.
What is the distribution of land ownership based in caste, any citation?
> The main problem here is that it's not even in the mainstream public discourse cause the narrative is always set by the upper castes.
mainstream public discourse is set by whoever can set it, it is free for all. In my understanding it is generally the left leaning literate class, talking for suppressed classes. True, most of them have descended from upper-caste, but have since devowed their caste and have become caste-agnostic.
> This won't stop unless caste is uprooted from the society.
Caste is largely getting uprooted from society, I don't see this bringing social equality. In truth, now there is a upper-caste among lower-case -- the early beneficiaries of the reservation with whom others in the lower caste can't compete.
> mainstream public discourse is set by whoever can set it, it is free for all
No, its not. The ones with social power only will be able to set the narrative in any society.
>Caste is largely getting uprooted from society, I don't see this bringing social equality.
This is not true. The system stays the same. We are in a modernised casteist society
>In truth, now there is a upper-caste among lower-case -- the early beneficiaries of the reservation with whom others in the lower caste can't compete.
The point of reservation is for representation. Not for competence or anything else. Again this is a classic upper caste narrative that is pushed repeatedly. Its not an economic upliftment program. Its only for representation.
Buddhism was prominent in India till Muslim invaders came and conquered India. Buddhist Monastery were sitting ducks for them, Buddhism was eliminated in the first wave of Islamic invaders.
Of-course there were struggles with others before that, such as Brahmins, but those were political struggles, not existential. Many times Buddhists gained the favor of Kings, other times Brahmins.
To be fair, groups like that exist and work closely within the political spectrum for influence, not just in protest and agitation as in BLM. There have been several Dalit leaders and non-Dalit leaders for backward class upliftment.
Unlike the USA and other western countries? Have you been in USA recently? In fact, if one did the genuine stats incorporating analysis of wage slaves and issues around food stamps, I'd wager that slavery is more of an issue in USA.
> It is so hard to believe such brutal system still exist in human society
It is so hard to believe that James Byrd Jr was dragged behind a truck until his head popped off due to the friction with the road. That was not in the 1800s. That was in 1998. This wasn't in some Appalachian village, it was in Jasper. Yes, a sunset town. And that murderous knee for 8 minutes 46 seconds on George Floyd. That was in 2020. In Minneapolis. Not some tiny Indian village. Do we really need to keep going? We should look in the mirror.
