There are several European countries that right now have no discernible excess mortality despite having hundreds of thousands of confirmed cases and thousands of deaths.
Outside of NY/NJ, the excess mortality in the US is within 20% of the normal rate, no different than the variance expected from a bad/mild flu season.
If you were to transpose those cases back to February, what would you have seen in the death statistics? Nothing suspicious at all. There could have been hundreds of thousands of cases that have gone unnoticed, because there wasn't any testing - and that's assuming a mortality rate of over 2%. If the mortality rate is lower than 0.4%, as some studies suggest, it could've been millions of cases.
You do realize we’ve been waiting it out at home since early march here in CA? The only real reason why no of deaths is not through the roof yet. If you divide number of confirmed (!) covid deaths in nyc by total pop it’s already over 0.2%
Edit: actual calc i did is 13k confirmed deaths in nyc / 70% herd immunity magic number of 8.4 mil
Let's look at Germany from that EUROMOMO map. Despite all the measures, they have had over 150k cases and over 6k deaths (a death rate of over 2%), but it doesn't show up on the graph.
All the deaths that have happened in Germany in the past weeks could've happened months earlier and it wouldn't have shown up either.
This disproves the idea that there couldn't have been any mass infections earlier, because we would've seen that from excess deaths. That's the point I am making. The only way to know would've been through testing, but there wasn't any testing then.
Hypothesis: "If there had been mass spread outside of Asia as soon as January or February, we would have been able to tell because of unusually high excess deaths"
Contradicted by: "There are known cases of mass spread that didn't result in unusually high excess deaths"
Therefore, excess death is an insufficient metric to reveal a mass spread of COVID-19 - it could have been spreading undetected.
Whether there have been any measures to limit the spread is irrelevant to that conclusion.
> "There are known cases of mass spread that didn't result in unusually high excess deaths"
You used Germany as an example.
Here's the situation in Germany:
Since 13 March, the pandemic has been managed in the protection stage as per the RKI plan, with German states mandating school and kindergarten closures, postponing academic semesters and prohibiting visits to nursing homes to protect the elderly. Two days later, borders to five neighbouring countries were closed. By 22 March, all regional governments had announced curfews or restrictions in public spaces. Throughout Germany, domestic travelling is only authorised in groups not exceeding two people unless they are from the same household. Some German states imposed further restrictions authorising people to leave their homes only for certain activities including commuting to workplaces, exercising or purchasing groceries.[10]
Tell me, please, how does this support the idea that mass spread without extreme protective measures (as was the case in January or February) can result in no excess death?
> Tell me, please, how does this support the idea that mass spread without extreme protective measures (as was the case in January or February) can result in no excess death?
I'm not saying it can result in "no excess death", I'm saying if there had been mass spread back then, even on the order of hundreds of thousands of cases, it could've gone unnoticed, because the excess death would've been within the seasonal variance.
If there are really 10x as many actual cases as reported - which is what antibody studies suggest - then the virus has either been spreading much faster than we assumed, or has been spreading for longer than we assumed.
The fact that somebody who died in France in December appears to have been infected with COVID-19 strongly suggests that there has been community spread far earlier than we assumed.
> There are several European countries that right now have no discernible excess mortality
This is because there are lags in the data. You need to wait a few more weeks (and for some countries it'll be months) for the data to come in and be reported.
I don't know the extent to which this is true, but even then, we do know the average deaths in previous years and we do know the actual deaths reported and can get an idea of high how the discrepancy could've been.
In the case of Germany, there would be 12,000 weekly deaths on average, versus about 2000 weekly deaths due to COVID-19 at the peak - that is within the variance caused by the seasonal flu. It would not have been a suspicious rise.
> In the case of Germany, there would be 12,000 weekly deaths on average, versus about 2000 weekly deaths due to COVID-19 at the peak - that is within the variance caused by the seasonal flu. It would not have been a suspicious rise.
If you're comparing covid-19 to flu you must count them using the same method, and you're not doing that here. Here, for covid-19 you're using "deaths after confirmed positive" but for flu you're using "all cause mortality". When you use the same method to count covid-19 and flu deaths you see much higher rates of death for covid-19.
> It's very easy to search for this information. Here's one link...
Your claim is that the lack in excess mortality is solely due to lag. Your link doesn't say anything about the extent of the delay regarding countries like Germany.
> If you're comparing covid-19 to flu you must count them using the same method, and you're not doing that here. Here, for covid-19 you're using "deaths after confirmed positive" but for flu you're using "all cause mortality".
The hypothesis is "If there had been mass spread back then, we would've seen it from excess deaths", which implies all-cause mortality. Of course I'm mentioning Influenza because it causes some of the seasonal variance and some of the same symptoms.
> When you use the same method to count covid-19 and flu deaths you see much higher rates of death for covid-19.
Yes, but that's in hindsight. That's not the way you would have looked at the cases at the time.
There are about 20,000 pneumonia deaths per year in Germany where the cause is never determined[1]. That's over 300 per week average, more in the winter years. Now suppose an old person comes in and dies of pneumonia. There's nothing suspicious about this. Suppose a few more come in this year than the last year. Again, nothing suspicious, some flu seasons are worse than others.
I'm not saying there have been 2000 undetected cases of COVID-19 deaths per week in Germany back in January/February, but there could have easily been 100-200.
