>Poverty consumes each person that lives inside of it and strips them of their own individual identity.
I have no idea what this means. What I know from personal experience is that poverty makes one care less about the future. And make stupid decisions like voting for the guy who gives out $1 bread, sprays money in the air and ends up stealing $10mil.
>Poverty makes a person begin questioning what it is they did in their life that brought them to this low of a point.
For someone born to a poor home, this doesn't apply
>In their eyes, if they were given the opportunity to be so comfortable in life, they would do anything they could to spread joy to anyone who walked through their door
Depends on where you grew up or what your parents said to you. Where I'm from, wealthy guys who were once poor don't spread joy, but pain & oppress others with their wealth. They make completely new friends, become extremely busy, develop amnesia and suddenly can't remember people from their days of poverty. They rub it in your face, won't give out $1 to help anyone but would buy you as many beers as you'd like.
Some people who escape poverty overspend, buy shiny wheels, drink their eyes out - buy, buy, buy to enjoy the life they never had in childhood and hasten their way to poverty.
Another set become withdrawn. The fear that the good fortune is temporary makes this class live very simple lives. To them, "Winter is just on the horizon."
Well the OP was saying that poverty has a psychological dimension and it seems to me you agree with that.
From your perspective that psychological dimension can be explained without much interiority (i.e. makes you do stupid things) but for the OP it needs explaining from the inside in terms of feelings.
You are both saying very similar things except you are applying very different value judgements to them.
If I had to guess I would say you have a rather more deterministic / mechanistic view of the human experience than the OP.
I'm sad that you're getting downvoted for posting what you obviously experienced personally.
I can't agree or disagree with most of it, since it wasn't my experience, but I do want to change your mind on one point:
" And make stupid decisions like voting for the guy who gives out $1 bread, sprays money in the air and ends up stealing $10mil."
Perhaps it does make some people make stupid decisions, but I'm become very careful in what I label "stupid". When you've got un-met needs, you do what you have to in order to fulfill that need. If you can get free bread and money in return for a promise to vote a certain way, that's basic incentives.
The demographics of HN are well known. The average biases of said demographics are well known. It is telling but not exactly surprising that every single comment that claims to have first hand experience with poverty is disagreeing* with the GP and also grey and at the bottom.
*GP seems to be placing arguing that psychological factors are key to what makes poverty suck and most of the people disagreeing seem to think psychological factors are a non-issue or take a distant second place to more immediate material concerns (though they don't necessarily agree beyond that).
Man, do I associate with "winter is coming." I grew up fairly poor and I got a start up lotto ticket. I wouldn't say I'm rich by any stretch, but I'm comfortable. I've expected the gravy train to end the entire ride.
Yeah, I know this feeling. I finished school with a teaching certificate in '09 when not even public schools were hiring, and took a series of manual labor temp jobs until someone was willing to hire me to clerk in their warehouse.
I'm making about 5 times as much per year now than when I started(I'm incredibly lucky), but I still remember what it was like to have to live frugally on $10.00/hr to $12.00/hr. I had to change oil and do repairs on my old GM truck myself, buy anything I needed from the Goodwill and fix it up, and generally try to make ends meet. Luckily rent was really cheap and the grocery store and a parts shop were in walking distance(~.5 mile one-way). And having the truck meant that I could move bulk items like a couch and a coffee table.
Living like that is why I don't buy new cars and have avoided trying to buy a house. Because at any time my luck could run out and I'll have to use my wits to stretch my means again.
Being scared of the gravy train stopping is exactly why I bought my house. By shoveling as much money I to it as I can, I can remove an expense long term. Paying only taxes and utilities seems better than paying rent and utilities.
If you have the option to go for it, I would question whether avoiding trying to buy a house is smart compared with renting, assuming that's the alternative.
If you can't keep up payments on a house purchase, you can still sell it (or the foreclosing bank will), and if that happens after a few years to cover costs, probably still come out ahead compared with renting.
> What I know from personal experience is that poverty makes one care less about the future.
That's interesting.
What I take from the psychological aspect of poverty is this:
Poverty makes one care a lot about the future. As in worry. Worry about the next meal, the next rent payment, paying that bill, how to socialise without paying for anything, keeping up appearances because you think getting a job (or a better one) depends on appearing successful, being scared to go to the doctor about that lump because you might end up homeless and still can't afford treatment anyway, wanting to not worry your family but not wanting to hide things, etc.
The problem is this occurs continuously - you can't afford a break from thinking about near-future needs, because some of them affect you every day (e.g. skipping meals to save cash, while making sure your coworkers don't notice), and some of them feel like threats every day (e.g. you never know when late rent will turn to an eviction, you don't answer phone calls from unknown numbers because you don't want to acknowledge contact if it's a debt collector).
This is a high, continuous cognitive load and that makes it harder to make good planning decisions. Both because there are more immediate needs, and because simply thinking clearly needs the luxury of a decent stretch of time not worry about other things. It's not even enough to have a short break, as it takes a long time to wind down from a state of perpetual back-of-the-mind worrying and juggling problems.
If anything, people who are reasonably well off and safe economically care less about the future, because they don't have to care, it'll be fine.
>> Poverty makes a person begin questioning what it is they did in their life that brought them to this low of a point.
> For someone born to a poor home, this doesn't apply
I think it does apply but in a less obvious way.
People born to poor homes are still shown what they could aspire to: A higher standard of living than they started in, and greater opportunities to aspire to.
If anything, they see more of that than the middle classes, because they start from a relatively disadvantaged position, but are seeing the same things on TV (say) as everyone else.
And so when they grow up to be responsible for themselves, if they believe it's not fixed and depends on themselves but they are still dirt poor, the question becomes "What haven't I done with my life that I should have?"
> What I know from personal experience is that poverty makes one care less about the future. And make stupid decisions like voting for the guy who gives out $1 bread, sprays money in the air and ends up stealing $10mil.
What do you mean by personal experience? That you were poor and made the named stupid decisions? Or that you know of poor people who made the named decisions?
This seems very disconnected from reality to me. Romanticization of the poor as some sort of noble, underprivileged class, yearning for the opportunity to bring humanity back to the world is a very common narrative sold by people who are usually just trying to make themselves feel better about something. The truth is that poverty tends to just harden people to the world. You see much less empathy in impoverished communities, poverty is more likely to make you care less about other people, not more, and much more likely to end up victimizing other people, usually other poor people. That’s why our poor communities have such wide spread problems with violence and property crimes. Telling lovely made up stories about what it’s like to be poor might make you feel better, but it’s not helping anybody, and it’s certainly not accurate.
I don't think it's disconnected from reality at all. This kind of "underprivileged class" description echoes my experience, but my experience was largely rural poverty rather than urban.
In our case we got to know our neighbours better because we'd borrow things from one another, my parents couldn't afford childcare so I stayed with those same neighbours after school.
Now I live in a city the poorer areas are much closer to what you describe.
Such an experience is very atypical, regardless of rural or urban setting. Poor rural communities are just as likely as urban communities (if not more likely) to have issues with substance abuse, violence and family harm. Poverty tends to take your childhood away from you, but good parents can overcome that and bring some reasonable level of stability to the home. But this is absolutely not the norm in poor communities. It sounds like you grew up with two parents, who weren’t neglectful? Well that essentially puts you amongst an elite group in a poor community. Most poor children don’t have two parents, and don’t have any reasonable level of stability at home. If your parents also managed to avoid abusing you, or exposing you at a harmful level of substance abuse, then you would have most certainly had a better childhood experience than the majority of your socio-economic peers.
My rural experience (UK) may be different from what you're expecting if you're taking an americentric viewpoint. I had one neglectful parent who later married physically abusive step-parent. I experienced physical violence and sexual abuse as a child, but my surroundings outside of the home were largely positive despite poverty.
EDIT: also some of your claims here are questionable. I don't believe that children in an average poor household experience abuse + drug usage. I knew plenty of poor children who had one parent, I knew some who had a drug user in the house and I definitely knew some who were abused but I didn't know a single person who ticked all of those boxes.
>Poverty consumes each person that lives inside of it and strips them of their own individual identity.
I have no idea what this means. What I know from personal experience is that poverty makes one care less about the future. And make stupid decisions like voting for the guy who gives out $1 bread, sprays money in the air and ends up stealing $10mil.
>Poverty makes a person begin questioning what it is they did in their life that brought them to this low of a point.
For someone born to a poor home, this doesn't apply
>In their eyes, if they were given the opportunity to be so comfortable in life, they would do anything they could to spread joy to anyone who walked through their door
Depends on where you grew up or what your parents said to you. Where I'm from, wealthy guys who were once poor don't spread joy, but pain & oppress others with their wealth. They make completely new friends, become extremely busy, develop amnesia and suddenly can't remember people from their days of poverty. They rub it in your face, won't give out $1 to help anyone but would buy you as many beers as you'd like.
Some people who escape poverty overspend, buy shiny wheels, drink their eyes out - buy, buy, buy to enjoy the life they never had in childhood and hasten their way to poverty.
Another set become withdrawn. The fear that the good fortune is temporary makes this class live very simple lives. To them, "Winter is just on the horizon."