I think you're probably going to be ok if you aren't related to anyone wanted by the Chinese government. I'm not trying to downplay the severity of what they're doing by holding people as bargaining chips, but a random person should be safe. Unless you get framed for something, which is entirely possible. Or you simply piss off the wrong person.
I hate how arguing about this makes me look like a shill, but here goes:
Do you think that he's innocent? If not, then I don't see what this has to do with my post.
Going further, you're implying that China is giving excessive punishments to foreigners due to geopolitical relations.
You are omitting that China isn't treating this specific example more harshly than they would treat a Chinese citizen (who can't buy their way out with money and/or influence). They are being given equal treatment.
The article even says that foreigners are typically treated favorably compared to locals. I do agree that the relaxation of this favorable treatment is related to world politics, but the way your post is framed is disingenuous.
I don't think my original post needs an explicit explanation that a random foreigner being ok in China assumes that you don't commit an obvious crime that would result in, at the very least, prison time or deportation in nearly any other country that won't let you bribe your way out.
Sepentza and Laowhy86 (two youtubers that bike around China) have recently moved out of China due to worsening treatment of foriegners.
If you don't have local family connections advocating for you, as a foriegner you will end up with worse outcomes when interacting with the police or passport system (they've done a few videos on their run-ins with the Chinese legal system).
It's also getting more expensive in China and they've mentioned that they can't work in China anymore (and have been relying on their videos as their sources of income). I'm not sure if that's because they changed from having work visas to marriage visas or because they are on tourist ones, but they both had a lot of work experience in China.
Outside of the availability of White Monkey jobs (which has dried up recently) niether led a very priveledged life in China. Property ownership was not possible, getting a WeChat, employment and phone # was tough, and they were often ripped off due to being foriegners.
Chinese nationalism has been promoted much more by the CCP over he last 2 years and has turned public sentiment against foriegners pretty severely.
So drug offences are in china punishable by death. Previously, I think China was a lot more leniant on westerners committing such offences; they held them for a bit, then sent them home and banned them from reentering.
Here, they decided to enforce the law fully. You can argue it's unfair because the attitude of the state has changed and likely because of geopolitics. But from my point of view, the death penalty for drug offences was always a risk, so you're on your own if you decide to do stuff like that anyway.
So the tl;dr is, white westerners no longer get a free pass in foreign country.
This is one of the issues with selective/discretional enforcement of laws.
The original oppressive law is ignored, because "it's usually not enforced/used."
And then whether it is used for oppression just comes down to whether the powers that be decide you need oppressing.
Indeed, it's one of the criticisms of the war on drugs: that enforcement was tilted towards people that law enforcement, for one reason or another, didn't like (e.g. skin color).
> Can't really believe someone is actually supporting the death penalty for minor drug offenses
I don't think there was anything in my post that could indicate that...
I personally wouldn't have the death penalty for drug offences. But there are many countries that do, and if that's the law, then you must follow it. Even more so if you are a guest of that country and not a citizen.
China is a very safe country for Western people to visit. And if something happens to a Westerner authorities often go the extra mile to help.
On the other hand, drug trafficking is punishable by death in China. If anything China has tended to be more lenient to Westerners convicted of drug trafficking compared to its own citizens.
They are welcoming but they expect respect and no involvement in politics.
Can you name anything that the CCP would think is not political? They are great at making up excuses after the fact to justify what they do. If for whatever reason they want to arrest you, you can be sure they will have an excuse for it.
What's the excuse for harvesting organs for political prisoners? Were they "asking for it"? A country that is run by people like this is not safe to visit.
The reality is, obviously, that they do not want to arrest Western visitors. In fact they want Western visitors to get the best opinion of the country possible and go home telling every one how great China is.
I fully agree: China is not a democratic country, and there is no independent judiciary, and crossing the wrong people while there is a bad idea (is there a country where it's a good idea, though?)
But let's not claim that it is dangerous to visit or even to move to for work. It is very safe.
"No involvement in politics" is a very high barrier to cross for a lot of westerners. I would not want to personally test if retweets supporting Tibetan freedom counts as "political involvement".
You're a visitor in a foreign country. Whatever your opinions are I think it is not too difficult to refrain from being involved in politics or sensitive issues.
It's common sense of travelling to a foreign land, really.
It is common sense when travelling to a foreign land that punishes speech. I have been asked about politics pretty much in every European nation I've visited or resided in. It's not unusual to talk politics or disagree, and at worst you should end up leaving a bad impression on someone, not end up in prison.
Note that I wrote "being involved" in politics, which is quite different from what you describe in your comment. I don't think it is common for visitors to European countries to take part in local political demonstrations, for example.
Foreigners in China who end up in trouble are those who show up with a large Tibetan flag in public, not those who say that they disagree with the Chinese government (though it helps to be polite and respectful when saying it, which is, again, common sense).
> It's not unusual to talk politics or disagree, and at worst you should end up leaving a bad impression on someone
Which is what would happen in China. You wouldn't end up in prison...
The point is that as a Western visitor to China you would only risk being "punished" by doing explicit things that foreign visitors to any country usually don't do.
There is no practical point in discussing what you could or couldn't do if you never did it and never thought of doing it anyway.
So, yes, in Europe you could freely join a demonstration while in China it would not be a good idea. Does it make any practical difference to you as a foreign visitor? No, because that's not something you would do anyway, and if you did, well, you would probably knew the risks.
It is not besides the point. I went to the UK not too long ago, and visited both some of the brexit and anti-brexit rallies. It was pretty interesting.
I also visited France some couple months ago, and in Paris I had no qualms about seeing what was going on with some of the protests there.
This stuff is perfectly OK and normal. There is nothing wrong with that.
> if you never did it and never thought of doing it anyway.
But I did do it.... It was fun to check out what some of the protesters were doing. Why is it so weird and surprising for someone to check out a brexit rally? Lol. I'd imagine that many tourists did that.
> Does it make any practical difference to you as a foreign visitor?
Yes it does! Do you honestly believe that tourists in the UK aren't going around making brexit jokes all the time, and maybe even seeing what some of the protesters are doing? Of course they are doing this. It is a cool touristy thing to do to check out current events, related to local politics!
"Not too difficult" is not a good way to justify it.
Try using this justification against something with which you agree. You should immediately realize that just because X is not too difficult to do, does not necessarily justify the consequences of doing X. An example: it is not too difficult to not voice our concerns regarding brutality, does not mean we should keep quiet about it.
Do foreign visitors in Paris feel the need to take part in the Yellow vest protests or to show their support/opposition to them? No.
The assumption here that foreign visitors in China feel an urge to become political activists as soon as they disembark their plane or that the political situation in China makes any difference to Western visitors is disingenuous.
I am not trying to justify Chinese policies. I am just saying that claiming that China is a risky place to visit for a Westerner is FUD and does not depict the reality.
Ah, OK, in that case disregard my comment. Just to clarify, I was not disagreeing with you, just assumed that you used "not too difficult to do X" as some sort of a justification. If this is not the case, then I apologize.
Facebook, Google and Wikipedia are banned in China, and many other sites. Accessing them as w means breaking the law. Since the censorship is mostly for political reasons, accessing those sites illegally would embroil you in a sensitive issue.
I guess for most foreigners, it would be very difficult from refraining to visit those sites
This is an amusing take. Nobody cares if you (as a foreign tourist) go to those sites, in fact if you’re on T-Mobile roaming or in a hotel that caters to westerners, you don’t go through the firewall at all.
I was surprised that you can buy sim cards in HK which are completely uncensored and use them in mainland china, using the same exact networks too (so no slow roaming speeds).
I seriously doubt you would end up in an australian prison because, as a foreign individual, you said you didn't like the current australian prime minister.
Come on. People retweet political things without really thinking about it all the time. I travel to "foreign land" ask the time and don't have anything to fear for my expressions of political opinion because most Western countries protect freedom of expression. As someone who believes in democracy and classic liberalism, I think it is too much to expect.
Saying "it's China, it's a different culture" doesn't make oppression better.
"Initially, Schellenberg was seemingly the recipient of such leniency. On November 20, he was sentenced to 15 years in prison for being an accessory to drug smuggling. But he appealed his conviction and at his retrial this week -- more than a month after top Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou was arrested in Vancouver, accused by the United States of helping cover up violations of sanctions on Iran -- he was convicted of a primary role in the smuggling and was sentenced to death."
I would suggest that in general, avoid8’g countries that have both questionable legal systems and the death penalty for things one would consider normal in their home country. This would encompass much of the Middle East but exclude Singapore, for example. It is unfair to single out China in this case, and, “Canadians” is a single person here, not even two.
This can be hard to avoid. For example, let’s say you get caught in a “tea room” scam. That’s where you meet a couple of attractive locals who invite you to a tea room, only when the bill comes it’s astronomically higher than you expected. Your new “friends” and the owners of the establishment are in cahoots. What do you do? If you say you won’t pay and the owners make a scene, it’s entirely possible that a crowd forms, someone shouts “That foreigner said Chinese people are trash!”, and now you’re sitting in a Chinese jail with lumps on your head and criminal charges.
Or maybe a drunk harasses you, and the same thing happens. Or you get into a fender bender with some friend of a Party member. And so on.
If you are a foreigner in China and get involved in a legal dispute, it will probably not go well for you. There is no independent judiciary. Your freedom would be subject to the Party’s political needs.
Some firsthand accounts (ignore the clickbait titles/thumbnails, they’re just playing the YouTube algorithm game):
Don't know why this is being downvoted. This is known to happen, just ask any ex-pat in the community.
If you visit china and you're someone they may not like or have a reason to be targeted(even for monetary gain) use extreme caution. People should be aware of this.
This. If you're some some random scrub going to China, the government isn't going to bat an eye if you enter the country. Thousands of American citizens go to and from China every day. Detaining you for no reason is not what they're looking for.
If you have beard, if you look middle eastern (a bit dark skinned like from south Europe, may be Afro-European from south USA), originnaly from middle east (doesn't matter if you are rised and having western citizenship), having Turkic name (because of Uygurs), holding Turkish citizenship, looking suspicius, having pro Hong Kong ot pro Tibetian opinions you will be questioned by police, and you will have hard time finding hotels.
For example this guy cannot find otel because he has Turkish citizenship. https://youtu.be/2SvHsU7jwwk also he is being questioned every time when he is being noticed by police.
I'm not saying this doesn't happen, but it's certainly not the norm.
I have a beard, and pro-HK and pro-Tibetan opinions. I've visited various places in China several times - never had any issues. The customs/immigration officials are friendly, just the same as they are everywhere (except the US!). The few interactions I've had with the police were also friendly, just the same as I'd expect everywhere (except the US!).
It's not so much this as it is I am a person who absulotely needs freedom of expression and China is a place where that is highly regulated. I wouldn't survive long.
Not sure what exactly you mean by that but it's not like someone is monitoring all the conversations you have. You can say a lot before anyone will even bother to intervene. I had conversations about censorship and the Tiananmen massacre with Chinese people in China. Another example would be YouTubers laowhy86 and serpentza. They are pretty focused on the negative sides of China and have uploaded a lot of content from within China. They actually left China just a few months ago and apparently didn't have any problems doing so. I mean not that I'm trying to force you to go to China or anywhere else but I really think it's a very valuable experience. But that also depends on other circumstances like whether you have family. I certainly wouldn't want to move to the other side of the planet for half a year with a toddler. :-)
Heh looks like you're exactly the kind of person described in the first sentence. ;-)
I'm astonished how many people need to paint the world black and white in order to function. Chinese people have to be all evil and bad so I can feel better about my home country.
I'm neither "Murican" nor am I one of those ominous fake news spreaders who never have been there.
And nobody said that all Chinese people have to be evil...I haven't seen anybody here making this statement. Why do you feel you have to set up this straw man?
